Deer Movement Myth Dispelled

[Doc]

Ha-ha-ha..... and do you suppose they make an entry in their journal for all the other deer to read:

"Today, a special kind of dog ran by me and didn't try to eat me. We can now ignore all dogs".

 

Ok, a little unnecessary sarcasm there, but exactly how intelligent do you think these critters are. Since few of them live past a year and a half, do you really believe that they apparently cram that level of logic and analysis into that short time. I guess I am a bit skeptical. Yes if they receive repetitive daily input, like farm equipment or some guy doing his chores every day at the same time and in the same way, they may become conditioned to semi-ignore that stuff. But when they are frequently pursued by dog-like creatures, I have to wonder if their brain can sort out the intentions based on species. Maybe they can, but I am not sure that we aren't giving their intelligence a bit more credit than actually exists.

[growalot]

I'll leave sarcasm out of it and put this to you Doc...Then tell me why the deer here come in and bed /feed right next to two barking dogs...people walking around and grilling.  When they have hundreds of acres to "hide" when the coyotes are active and howling half the night down in our woods? Do I think they have memory and some reasoning yes sir I do but hey...just because it is a "phenomenon"...hhmm that happens many times a year for years and years...doesn't mean anything really,   Ok, a little sarcasm inserted there.

Edited January 18, 2016 by growalot

[Doc]

I have no idea why they like to hang out with your dogs, That is not a situation that I have ever seen happen and makes absolutely no sense. And even when we had a dog out in the kennel I can't remember when any deer were cozying up  to her. I'm not sure I would chalk that up that kind of weird behavior to some master-mind intelligence though.

 

I have seen deer come into our front yard and graze on the lawn, but that had to do with the fact that they saw some food that they wanted (pretty basic and primitive instinct at work there). As far as coexisting with people here, I can only say that as far as deer acting domestic while feeding on the lawn, they never failed to take off like a ruptured duck as soon as that front door opened up. So, all I can figure is that your deer's odd behavior might be something in the water or maybe your deer are getting into some fermented apples .... lol.

[growalot]

I worked at Show case Kennels in Macedon for a few years...It backed up to woods and it was a very busy boarding kennel and large. The out door runs were open to the wood line and I can tell you that deer hung around that kennel as if there was a corn factory there...Now I don't know if your familiar with commercial Kennels, but they are not quiet when the dogs are out to exercise...

 

 

Then you have the WILD turkey in those pictures...hhhmmm yep animals have no ability to reason out even the basic things in their life....

Edited January 18, 2016 by growalot

[Doc]

Ha-ha-ha, you have strange animals. Usually wild animals do not have any affection toward other species. I know ours don't, especially those species that would tear them apart if they had the chance. Very odd behavior.

[Doewhacker]

I think its simple, the deer run when threatened, be it a domestic dog or wild variety. If something chases them, they run. What do most humans do when something dangerous comes after them, escape, now what do humans do when they go to a zoo where they are protected? I am not suggesting Deer have cognitive thought, I am suggesting how ever its a basic survival trait of prey. Sometimes that threat is in the form of scent, sometimes sight ect.  

 

A great example would be the Saratoga battlefield, while walking in it you will be close to deer. Outside of the park they are hunted heavily and act accordingly. How is that?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I'll leave sarcasm out of it and put this to you Doc...Then tell me why the deer here come in and bed /feed right next to two barking dogs...people walking around and grilling.  When they have hundreds of acres to "hide" when the coyotes are active and howling half the night down in our woods? Do I think they have memory and some reasoning yes sir I do but hey...just because it is a "phenomenon"...hhmm that happens many times a year for years and years...doesn't mean anything really,   Ok, a little sarcasm inserted there.

There is a little difference of the deer coming to te dog on their terms and the dog running around them on their turf.  Mature bucks will bed down behind buildings on a regular basis if its a place of safety. Pretty smart dudes.

[growalot]

No Doc not really...for when I'm on my land and the dogs are with me..they were trained as pups NEVER TO CHASE. We couldn't and I wouldn't have dogs that Chase, because we had live stock. They have been trained to walk off leash and 3 paces behind.To stop at the road and not cross until given the OK..The deer have watched us walk by ,yards away, and the dogs never give it a second thought ,other one glance at me and a simple no head shake.Same thing with raccoons...but with them I will give a protect command and the raccoon is as good as dead..they won't even chase a rabbit unless I give the OK...training. Memory.... deer have good memories....all the ones walking around looking up tells me that!

[growalot]

PS...YOU NEED TO GET ON YOUTUBE...many videos of deer and back yard dogs "playing"....your sarcasm does change reality Doc...might not be your reality, but it is for a lot of other across the country...

[nyantler]

Riiiight....Its obvious that you have never seen a coyote overpopulation with a number of family groups on the same piece of turf. So what do you think happens to those dogs after they have decimated say 1000 acres of every living animal by either eating them or by just running them clear out of the county? Or Both!

Can't see something that doesn't exist in NY... Disney may have shown something like that in a movie though, not sure.

[nyantler]

Riiiight....Its obvious that you have never seen a coyote overpopulation with a number of family groups on the same piece of turf. So what do you think happens to those dogs after they have decimated say 1000 acres of every living animal by either eating them or by just running them clear out of the county? Or Both!

Okay.. enough with just humoring you... you do understand that the alpha male in any family group will not allow for another alpha on the same "piece of turf"... so there will only be one family on that turf... there may however be a few rogue males displaced from their place of birth that might challenge the alpha on occasion and pass through a territory, but there will not be more than one family... you not knowing that would explain your delusion about overpopulations of coyotes... I'm sure to you a population of 1 coyote might be considered too many for a piece of property... but by definition overpopulation is only when there is more than the habitat can sustain... and I am confident that there has been no evidence of that ever occurring with coyotes anywhere in NY State... nor has there ever been any documented cases of dogs decimating every living animal in a 1000 acre piece of land anywhere in NY... or running every animal clear out of any habitat in NY. Your hatred for coyotes has skewed you thinking and created your delusions, but you are entitled to that hatred and those delusions even if they aren't reality.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Okay.. enough with just humoring you... you do understand that the alpha male in any family group will not allow for another alpha on the same "piece of turf"... so there will only be one family on that turf... there may however be a few rogue males displaced from their place of birth that might challenge the alpha on occasion and pass through a territory, but there will not be more than one family... you not knowing that would explain your delusion about overpopulations of coyotes... I'm sure to you a population of 1 coyote might be considered too many for a piece of property... but by definition overpopulation is only when there is more than the habitat can sustain... and I am confident that there has been no evidence of that ever occurring with coyotes anywhere in NY State... nor has there ever been any documented cases of dogs decimating every living animal in a 1000 acre piece of land anywhere in NY... or running every animal clear out of any habitat in NY. Your hatred for coyotes has skewed you thinking and created your delusions, but you are entitled to that hatred and those delusions even if they aren't reality.

You are a joke and have no freaking clue on what things are or were here. You try and play the science crap and that is just what it is. Crap.  Your also full of it if about how many males are on 1000 acre piece of property. The last run with the dogs took 3 males alone with 2 males being taken in traps a couple weeks ago. Last year we took more males than we did females running them and during turkey season.. When we bought this farm we had one of the best hunting farms in the county both deer and turkeys. More than a waiting list wanting to hunt because you could see mature bucks chasing does in wide open fields at an hour of the day.  The first few years we saw dogs but did not mess with them much. Then before ya knew it we were seeing more dogs on a deer watch than we were deer. One night alone i sat in a tree along a soybean field to watch 5 dogs come from a hedgerow on my right and go across into a 50 acre island of off limit land in the middle of the field, Then 20 minutes later here come 3 from the right down the edge past me, 2 left behind me into the woods, Then at dark a pack to my left on the field lights up, a pack behind me across the road on Drum lights up and then the 5 across on the island lights up. Dont try and tell me what you think you know about coyotes and what its like to see a dozen fallow deer dead in a pen with only 1 being chewed on or having them come in on ya, to the point of baring teeth at you while you are gutting a deer with a flashlight in your mouth, or having them come into and grab your turkey decoys on a daily basis or maybe having them pin your dog against the sliding back door looking for breakfast or maybe sitting in your backyard and listen to 3 different packs yipping and yapping on 3 different corners of your 1000 acre piece of property.

 

Its obvious the only thing you know about coyotes is what you read in a book and most of that is proven outdated crap. Like if you kill them they will just keep coming. Bull, You kill every one of them with every means possible and you will not see or hear very many at all until you leave them unchecked again to ruin a piece of property. That wont happen again.

 

These guys on this site that are seeing 8-10 coyotes on their cams and seeing less and less of anything else living on that property will be on here telling their own story soon.  I bet you will try and dis credit them also with your so called book smarts. You may want to stick to writing down numbers and showing pics of deer because you have no clue of real coyote issues. 

[Doc]

PS...YOU NEED TO GET ON YOUTUBE...many videos of deer and back yard dogs "playing"....your sarcasm does change reality Doc...might not be your reality, but it is for a lot of other across the country...

And, had cameras been as readily available as they are today, I would have been able to show you pictures of dogs tearing apart a deer just before I intervened. And then there was this one that I put out of it's misery that found out the dogs weren't playing:

See, not every place and condition are Disney inspired. If deer are as intelligent and capable of logic and reason as is often fantasized about, I can assure you that, other than those that were raised together, deer do not consider dogs to be their playmates. The true everyday encounters between dogs and deer do not happen on You-Tube, but are played out in reality throughout the wild acreage everyday. It's not arguable .... dogs and deer are not buddies.

[growalot]

Now I know with your sarcastic comments you feel your stand and lack of understanding on this subject has put you on the defensive. That said, it does not change the fact that as I have stated with proof not all deer or wild life for that matter act or react the same to what you have been told they should to perceived danger...Now you really have put an effort into framing your part of this discussion in a way to some how discredit those with an opposing opinions and knowledge. That makes further engagement with you pointless on this subject, as it has in the past as well.

[Doc]

Now I know with your sarcastic comments you feel your stand and lack of understanding on this subject has put you on the defensive. That said, it does not change the fact that as I have stated with proof not all deer or wild life for that matter act or react the same to what you have been told they should to perceived danger...Now you really have put an effort into framing your part of this discussion in a way to some how discredit those with an opposing opinions and knowledge. That makes further engagement with you pointless on this subject, as it has in the past as well.

Look, don't run away from a discussion simply because you are being overwhelmed with facts. I am simply telling you the indisputable fact that dogs and deer are not buddies in the real world. Really, I didn't think that was some big revelation. And actually I'm certain that you really do know that. I'm sorry if my assertion runs contrary to your preconceived notions but as shown above I have seen some rather graphic evidence that the struggle between dogs and deer is a serious conflict that logically has to get factored into a deer's thinking and reactions. The fact that you can't handle discussion without going personal with it does not negate the point that I have made.

[growalot]

Never did I say they were buddies..I said that not all deer react the same to all perceived danger..which would include some dog interactions..It is you, that is trying your best to make your stand on this as an absolute,no variations in all deer reaction. Sorry Doc you are just plain wrong,period. I am not running away,I'm walking away from an immovable opinion.

[Tacti_Steve]

I think this thread is getting off topic a little bit guys. Sorry for not keeping up with it I am in Las Vegas at the Shot Show this week. yotes taking up residence and being part of the eco system was not the topic of this discussion. It is very different from what this study was for. This study proved that running Raccoons with hounds on a piece of property did not have any impact on the over all Deer patterns. If you read the hunting data in the study they were not hunting with any kind of major frequency either. The point is that a well trained hound that runs by a Deer while yes may spook the Deer but the event does not cause the Deer to permanently change its pattern or territory. Hound hunting on an occasional basis (even once a week) is not the same thing as a pack of yotes moving in. It is not the same thing as poor conservation that allows the predators to get out of control. It is quite the opposite. 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Tacti_Steve

[growalot]

TS...yes it did and for my part in that sorry...I have bowed out.

[Doc]

I think this thread is getting off topic a little bit guys. .........yotes taking up residence and being part of the eco system was not the topic of this discussion............

Actually, as I understood it, the topic was about deer reactions to dogs, and how that might impact deer hunting and established and scouted out deer patterns. I think that in that context, how deer react to the presence of dogs (any dogs) is exactly on-topic.

 

I also believe that the deer's local experiences with chasing dogs and/or chasing coyotes may also impact the deer's escape reactions when dogs are encountered (Even nice deer-friendly coon hounds) that might alter significantly the results of that study. It is an important aspect that they didn't consider. And again, a discussion of the role of coyotes could very well be exactly on topic as well, because that wrinkle to the deer's world was not studied in terms of how goosey deer can get regarding the intrusion of dogs.

 

Whatever else that moved into the discussion may simply be the normal topic drift that occurs when a topic has been around too long. Threads do have a natural movement to them that is absolutely understandable to a certain extent.

[nyantler]

You are a joke and have no freaking clue on what things are or were here. You try and play the science crap and that is just what it is. Crap.  Your also full of it if about how many males are on 1000 acre piece of property. The last run with the dogs took 3 males alone with 2 males being taken in traps a couple weeks ago. Last year we took more males than we did females running them and during turkey season.. When we bought this farm we had one of the best hunting farms in the county both deer and turkeys. More than a waiting list wanting to hunt because you could see mature bucks chasing does in wide open fields at an hour of the day.  The first few years we saw dogs but did not mess with them much. Then before ya knew it we were seeing more dogs on a deer watch than we were deer. One night alone i sat in a tree along a soybean field to watch 5 dogs come from a hedgerow on my right and go across into a 50 acre island of off limit land in the middle of the field, Then 20 minutes later here come 3 from the right down the edge past me, 2 left behind me into the woods, Then at dark a pack to my left on the field lights up, a pack behind me across the road on Drum lights up and then the 5 across on the island lights up. Dont try and tell me what you think you know about coyotes and what its like to see a dozen fallow deer dead in a pen with only 1 being chewed on or having them come in on ya, to the point of baring teeth at you while you are gutting a deer with a flashlight in your mouth, or having them come into and grab your turkey decoys on a daily basis or maybe having them pin your dog against the sliding back door looking for breakfast or maybe sitting in your backyard and listen to 3 different packs yipping and yapping on 3 different corners of your 1000 acre piece of property.

 

Its obvious the only thing you know about coyotes is what you read in a book and most of that is proven outdated crap. Like if you kill them they will just keep coming. Bull, You kill every one of them with every means possible and you will not see or hear very many at all until you leave them unchecked again to ruin a piece of property. That wont happen again.

 

These guys on this site that are seeing 8-10 coyotes on their cams and seeing less and less of anything else living on that property will be on here telling their own story soon.  I bet you will try and dis credit them also with your so called book smarts. You may want to stick to writing down numbers and showing pics of deer because you have no clue of real coyote issues.

And in all this time it never occurred to you that the reason you were killing and trapping so many males was because you had already killed the alpha which invited more and more rogue males to the area to compete for the new position of alpha. Until a new alpha is established and the family unit secured again the males will continue to invade the area. But, a secure group can't happen because of your continued assault on all coyotes in the area... so prepare yourself for a life long, never ending, assault on the coyotes. Proof again that you know nothing about coyotes or their behavior... you have been your own worse enemy and created exactly the problem you thought you were solving. Your hatred and misunderstanding of coyotes has become your problem... not overpopulation. But, carry on... no reason for you to learn anything from years and years of coyote studies... you seem to have it all figured out... your land, your hatred. For the record... displaying more anger and irritation in your posts doesn't make your position sound any more intelligent than the book smart guy.

[thphtm]

One place we hunted in the past, private property, the owner had 2 large mixed breed  dogs , I always wondered why a few times during the week we would see them chewing on body parts from deer, we thought they were remains of deer that were shot and they were fed the pices. Until one day while posted I saw them chasing a deer , the kept at it until the deer stopped running then one went and grabbed one of the deers rear legs and the other one jumped at the deers neck and killed it . These were not free roaming dogs they belonged to the owner.

[NFA-ADK]

WoW

[shawnhu]

I think this thread is getting off topic a little bit guys. Sorry for not keeping up with it I am in Las Vegas at the Shot Show this week. yotes taking up residence and being part of the eco system was not the topic of this discussion. It is very different from what this study was for. This study proved that running Raccoons with hounds on a piece of property did not have any impact on the over all Deer patterns. If you read the hunting data in the study they were not hunting with any kind of major frequency either. The point is that a well trained hound that runs by a Deer while yes may spook the Deer but the event does not cause the Deer to permanently change its pattern or territory. Hound hunting on an occasional basis (even once a week) is not the same thing as a pack of yotes moving in. It is not the same thing as poor conservation that allows the predators to get out of control. It is quite the opposite.

Enjoy the show!

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And in all this time it never occurred to you that the reason you were killing and trapping so many males was because you had already killed the alpha which invited more and more rogue males to the area to compete for the new position of alpha. Until a new alpha is established and the family unit secured again the males will continue to invade the area. But, a secure group can't happen because of your continued assault on all coyotes in the area... so prepare yourself for a life long, never ending, assault on the coyotes. Proof again that you know nothing about coyotes or their behavior... you have been your own worse enemy and created exactly the problem you thought you were solving. Your hatred and misunderstanding of coyotes has become your problem... not overpopulation. But, carry on... no reason for you to learn anything from years and years of coyote studies... you seem to have it all figured out... your land, your hatred. For the record... displaying more anger and irritation in your posts doesn't make your position sound any more intelligent than the book smart guy.

Let me take this right out of one of your books...Quote.

A pack is a coyote family dominated by an alpha male and female who form a breeding pair. It can also include this year’s pups and offspring from the previous year, along with individuals from other packs that have been accepted into the family. The size of the pack will depend on the amount of food available to sustain it. 

 

Resident coyotes are members of packs (family groups) and help defend their territory against other coyotes. Transient coyotes are solitary individuals that do not belong to a pack. They are commonly yearlings that have recently left their natal pack and sometimes old or sick coyotes that were forced to leave.  Transients can join another pack if accepted by the alpha pair. Transient coyotes are not territorial and have a huge home range that spans many coyote pack territories. 

 

You seem to forget the posts on previous years harvests. The first year there were over 100 dogs taken on this block of land which borders drum, Maybe a couple miles. I believe just shy of 40 were taken of this 1000 acre chunk i have control of. The second year they were not hunted as hard yet still over 20 were taken of this chunk of land with many more on the outskirts. These numbers do not include all the ones taken by every other means that we used to rid the vermin. The next 2 years which were last and the year before coyotes were not even seen and very few heard here and there and those last 2 years we had our local population of deer and turkey back on the farm. This year, Way to many were seen,with some taken during deer season that i had a trapper in during deer season with the hounds coming in behind him. 

There is no doubt in my mind that we had 2-3 different family packs on this property at the same time before they were decimated the first couple years and by the looks of things last fall and the harvests from fall and this year so far there is/was a fair number back.

It took them 2 years to come back on the property after they were decimated.  I love how the books say you kill one and one moves back in.  Trust me, That is not always the case, but you continue to read the books and i will see and deal with the real world.

 

Back to the scheduled program!

Edited January 20, 2016 by Four Season Whitetails

[Jason118]

never hunted with hounds so what do I know but you want to run dogs consistently threw others property that is used for deer hunting during deer season (or close to it)because of a study???? Any bow hunters or gun willing to let him start this summer and during deer season run dogs consistently??? Im sorry but I think you would be hard pressed unless a owner had a yote problem. Ask the first three months of the year we probably would let you respectively a couple of times ~ consistently? No. I know a few posted some very good stories supporting this referred study but I do not believe our land is better off having someone consistently hound hunt it than not. I'm sure there was a study on how making the first two weeks of bow season doe only in some areas would drastically reduce the deer population. DEC should get a refund for that study.