Lead Ammo Brief - go debate

[mike rossi]

Debate the points in this brief:  

 

• There is no clear, direct link between eating wild game and elevated lead blood levels. However, it is clear that lead is harmful to health and  lead fragments were found in the majority of meat samples which have been tested. Lead builds up in body tissues and when woman are pregnant lead that has accumulated in bone and perhaps other tissues is released; that can be more harmful to the fetus or nursing child which are small and developing than it is to an adult.

 

• The use of lead ammo, either shot shells or bullets does indeed harm wildlife. As with meat samples, gut piles have also been tested for bullet fragments, and many contained lead fragments. Making up some numbers for example: if 200,000 deer are killed a year in NY, by firearms, then in 10 years that is 2 million gut piles. That does not account for wounded, unrecovered deer shot with lead bullets. 

 

• Some hunters argue lead alternatives are to costly.

 

• Some hunters argue lead alternatives damage guns

 

• Some hunters argue lead alternatives perform poorly

 

• Some hunters claim the conclusions about lead ammunition is part of a bigger conspiracy to restrict hunting or firearms ownership.

[Curmudgeon]

Mike -

 

I see nothing here to debate. The facts in your first 2 bullet points are well established. The other 4 points have been demonstrated repeatedly.

 

[mike rossi]

Mike -

 

I see nothing here to debate. The facts in your first 2 bullet points are well established. The other 4 points have been demonstrated repeatedly.

 

That is interesting, because this sort of brief is the starting point of a debate or even a trial. But this is why you feel there is no debate; 

 

You agree with bullet points 1 and 2, and already provided supportive proof, so it is not your move regarding them. 

 

You disagree with bullet points 3 through 6, however since no evidence was given in support those assertions they are merely repetitive refrains. You cannot debate with people who make arguments with poor foundation, but that does not mean they have made a compelling case; rather it means they have not...

 

Basically, the ball is in the Pro-lead court.... 

[mike rossi]

Does anyone challenge this argument: 

 

There is no clear, direct link between eating wild game and elevated lead blood levels. However, it is clear that lead is harmful to health and  lead fragments were found in the majority of meat samples which have been tested. Lead builds up in body tissues and when woman are pregnant lead that has accumulated in bone and perhaps other tissues is released; that can be more harmful to the fetus or nursing child which are small and developing than it is to an adult.

 

[Curmudgeon]

I would only quibble by asking you to cite the specific report in which the "the majority of meat samples" had lead in them.

[mike rossi]

I would only quibble by asking you to cite the specific report in which the "the majority of meat samples" had lead in them.

 

Oh, no, I am not in this.

 

If I made a mistake than correct it, but I am pretty sure the report I read said that the vast majority or all of the samples contained lead. Not sure but I think that was North Dakota. 

 

The report about the gut piles would be up to you to locate as well. 

 

As I predicted, nobody would engage in this thread anyway. That suggests to me more conniving than ignorance....    

[EspressoBuzz]

I'd say (like Curmudgeon) that the first 2 point are well established. The next three points are also fact but will be corrected with technology once the desire to use non-lead ammo is taken seriously by ammo makers. The last point requires I put on a tinfoil hat to answer: If hunters as a whole embrace non-lead ammo, create a demand for it, is this not taking the high ground? Are we not acting in a safe a responsible manner and dis-arming the anti-hunters and proving we are conservationists  first and hunters second?

[rob-c]

I think I will take my chance on some lead particles in my venison compared to what mass meat producers add to their beef

[mike rossi]

I think I will take my chance on some lead particles in my venison compared to what mass meat producers add to their beef

 

OBJECT - RELEVANCE. 

[DirtTime]

I am all for using non toxic ammo. I just can't afford to buy it as my general ammo, as I am sure thousands of others are in the same boat.

I don't see prices dropping if demand goes up. I would guess that at least 90% of the time a high demand for something will create a higher price point for consumers. If a consumer wants or needs something they have no choice but to pay inflated prices for it. If I am selling something for $100, and all of a sudden my customer base for that item increases I am not dropping the price. No one trying to make money would.

 

How do they conduct that test that says children who eat wild game a lot are more likely to get learning disorders? Do they give a kid a few dozen venison burgers and then a math test? I am actually not trying to be sarcastic with that question. I would love to know how they determined this.

Edited March 11, 2016 by ....rob

[Rattler]

 

• The use of lead ammo, either shot shells or bullets does indeed harm wildlife

 

Harm wildlife??  I hope it kills them!  if it doesn't, I won't buy that crap ammo again!

[mike rossi]

I am all for using non toxic ammo. I just can't afford to buy it as my general ammo, as I am sure thousands of others are in the same boat.

 

 

 

 

Rob,

 

It doesn't seem that you understand what this post is about.

 

Are you addressing the bullet point: Some hunters argue lead alternatives are too costly?

 

If so, all you did was restate the bullet point. That is not how you prove your point. To prove your point, you need to provide verifiable evidence.

 

What is your proof that lead alternatives are too costly?

[Skillet]

You claim to" not be in this", yet you're clearly against lead bullets. You're posting a lot for someone who seemingly just started a thread to stir the pot, then stand back and watch the fallout.

Issue aside, your tactics & attitude are arrogant, and clearly show your disdain for those who you consider less enlightened than yourself.

Kind of a pattern for you.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Skillet

[DirtTime]

 

Debate the points in this brief:  

 

• There is no clear, direct link between eating wild game and elevated lead blood levels. However, it is clear that lead is harmful to health and  lead fragments were found in the majority of meat samples which have been tested. Lead builds up in body tissues and when woman are pregnant lead that has accumulated in bone and perhaps other tissues is released; that can be more harmful to the fetus or nursing child which are small and developing than it is to an adult.

 

• The use of lead ammo, either shot shells or bullets does indeed harm wildlife. As with meat samples, gut piles have also been tested for bullet fragments, and many contained lead fragments. Making up some numbers for example: if 200,000 deer are killed a year in NY, by firearms, then in 10 years that is 2 million gut piles. That does not account for wounded, unrecovered deer shot with lead bullets. 

 

• Some hunters argue lead alternatives are to costly.

 

• Some hunters argue lead alternatives damage guns

 

• Some hunters argue lead alternatives perform poorly

 

• Some hunters claim the conclusions about lead ammunition is part of a bigger conspiracy to restrict hunting or firearms ownership.

 

 

 

Rob,

 

It doesn't seem that you understand what this post is about.

 

Are you addressing the bullet point: Some hunters argue lead alternatives are too costly?

 

If so, all you did was restate the bullet point. That is not how you prove your point. To prove your point, you need to provide verifiable evidence.

 

What is your proof that lead alternatives are too costly?

Most basic lead or copper coated lead bullets start at least $10 below the price of non lead bullets.

Example 1 ( current prices at Cabelas ):

Rifle - Federal Power Shok 7mm-08 $29.99  /  Federal Premium Vital Shok 7mm-08 $39.99.

 

Example 2 

Shotgun - Remington Game Load 12ga $5.97 per 25 at Wal-Mart  /  Rio Bismuth 12ga at Cabelas $26.99 per 10 , Hevi Shot Turkey $22.99-$37.99 per 5.

You can get steel shot for less, but it's not recommended in all barrels. Though most newer shotguns should handle it.

I would say that's 'proof'. 

 

How do they conduct that test that says children who eat wild game a lot are more likely to get learning disorders? Do they give a kid a few dozen venison burgers and then a math test? I am actually not trying to be sarcastic with that question. I would love to know how they determined this

 

Funny how you addressed and put a challenge to the cost part, but you didn't or can't address this part of my comment.

[EspressoBuzz]

Here ya go!

 

Wild Meat Raises Lead Exposure

Tests by the CDC show that eating venison and other game can raise the amounts of lead in human bodies by 50 percent

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban/

 

Google it up you'll find other sources and for the patient the white papers are online too.

Edited March 12, 2016 by EspressoBuzz

[EspressoBuzz]

Near and dear to the heart...

 

John H. Schulz, a resource scientist at the Missouri Department of Conservation, has calculated that as many as 15 million mourning doves are killed in North America each year from lead poisoning, mostly from eating spent lead shot that looks like the weed seed they depend on for food. That’s almost as many as the estimated 20 million mourning doves legally shot and killed each year by hunters.

[Marion]

Near and dear to the heart...

John H. Schulz, a resource scientist at the Missouri Department of Conservation, has calculated that as many as 15 million mourning doves are killed in North America each year from lead poisoning, mostly from eating spent lead shot that looks like the weed seed they depend on for food. That’s almost as many as the estimated 20 million mourning doves legally shot and killed each year by hunters.

That's why they are called mourning doves, they are always in grieving over their fallen brethren

You Can't Beat My Meat!

[Tacti_Steve]

 

Debate the points in this brief:  

 

• There is no clear, direct link between eating wild game and elevated lead blood levels- Agree my family and I have been eating animals shot with lead our whole lives. We have an undetectable amount of lead in our blood. Just had a baby so I know. I have not seen any testing done on live game to determine lead levels before they are shot.
• However, it is clear that lead is harmful to health and  lead fragments were found in the majority of meat samples which have been tested.- Again so what. It's not "in" the meat. Don't eat the lead.
• Lead builds up in body tissues and when woman are pregnant lead that has accumulated in bone and perhaps other tissues is released; that can be more harmful to the fetus or nursing child which are small and developing than it is to an adult. - Agree

 

• The use of lead ammo, either shot shells or bullets does indeed harm wildlife - Of Course shooting them is harmful. We hope they die of being shot not lead poisoning. As with meat samples, gut piles have also been tested for bullet fragments, and many contained lead fragments- Yep again the intention. Doesn't mean you eat them. Making up some numbers for example: if 200,000 deer are killed a year in NY, by firearms, then in 10 years that is 2 million gut piles. That does not account for wounded, unrecovered deer shot with lead bullets. -So what? there is no evidence to say this is enough lead to cause harm to the water table or do anything other than stay in the ground.

 

• Some hunters argue lead alternatives are to costly.- Not just costly but sometimes not practical and/or just as harmful as lead.

 

• Some hunters argue lead alternatives damage guns- Some do. That's a fact

 

• Some hunters argue lead alternatives perform poorly- Yep SOME do. Some lead rounds also do.

 

• Some hunters claim the conclusions about lead ammunition is part of a bigger conspiracy to restrict hunting or firearms ownership.- Sometimes it is. It depends on the person/group making the claim and what their motives are. That is not to say their is not real merit to the argument. Good arguments can be used for the wrong reasons.

 

 

[DirtTime]

Here ya go!

 

Wild Meat Raises Lead Exposure

Tests by the CDC show that eating venison and other game can raise the amounts of lead in human bodies by 50 percent

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wild-game-deer-venison-condors-meat-lead-ammunition-ban/

 

Google it up you'll find other sources and for the patient the white papers are online too.

I did look a few articles up yesterday. Including the link you posted.

 

I also found this one yesterday;

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/lead-in-game-meat

 

I found this particularity interesting:

 

But lead is a dangerous neurotoxin, particularly for children and fetuses. Low levels can harm children’s developing brains, causing learning disabilities and reduced IQs. High levels can trigger severe neurological problems.

 

 

How did they conduct this study to say that it's ammo and not lead paint? There are a lot of kids these days with learning disorders that have probably never been exposed to lead in anyway.

 

So, again;

 

What tests have they done to prove lead ammo causes learning disorders in children?

[EspressoBuzz]

Studies conducted in the 60's and 70's (many for lead paint and leaded gas) set levels and proved at what levels lead causes learning disorders.

 

Follow me so far?

 

Jump ahead to the CDC study (and others) where they identified where they were getting there lead from (i.e. game meat) and tests showed what their lead blood levels were and referenced the earlier studies on lead. Thus they can determine the degree of learning disorder.

 

If you asking how do they know it wasn't lead paint not ammo, scientist check for that first, including the water and school environment. That's why they are called scientists and why the papers they produce are peer reviewed studies. Because other scientist would ask if other sources of lead have been eliminated.

 

It's in the white papers the CDC has published on their site.

[DirtTime]

Thank you EspressoBuzz, I will look a little deeper into more articles.

[Mr VJP]

I don't trust the CDC on this issue since it's well known they are anti-gun and want to put "gun violence" on their list of "diseases".  They don't think gang violence is a disease though.

 

As far as cost of copper ammo, it's all an expense to me, since I long ago stocked up on enough ammo, for all of my firearms, to last me until I die.

 

Doves are dying by the thousands?  I have never found a dead one that wasn't shot.  Where do they go to die?

 

I'll use Barnes bullets when I need better terminal performance, otherwise I'm not worried.  Usually crows or coyote get the gut piles I leave behind.  

 

[DirtTime]

Actually a note on Doves....MrVJP just reminded me of something I wanted to bring up...

Skeet shooters. They leave more lead on the ground then probably 100 average hunters. Doves are all over the place, so maybe they are ingesting lead from skeet ranges. Isn't the big reason they die of lead is because it looks like a seed they love to eat?

Edited March 12, 2016 by ....rob

[Doewhacker]

Actually a note on Doves....MrVJP just reminded me of something I wanted to bring up...

Skeet shooters. They leave more lead on the ground then probably 100 average hunters. Doves are all over the place, so maybe they are ingesting lead from skeet ranges. Isn't the big reason they die of lead is because it looks like a seed they love to eat?

Gun ranges are required to remove soil every few years due to lead. At least the ones I have been in. They also have filters and fans at the indoors ones I have been too.

[DirtTime]

Gun ranges are required to remove soil every few years due to lead. At least the ones I have been in. They also have filters and fans at the indoors ones I have been too.

Every "few years". So that lead dropped on a day when the ground wasn't removed will still have lead on and in the ground.

 

The point is, it's not just hunters leaving lead behind. Agree or disagree?