Lead Ammo Brief - go debate

[Curmudgeon]

Guys, be nice.

[shawnhu]

Here is the deal:

On every hunting forum there is a Doc Persona, a Four Seasons Whitetail Persona, and a Shawnhu Persona.

They claim to be hunters, yet 5 things they support will end hunting ( while implying the vice versa):

1) Pellet guns instead of real firearms

2) Expensive and detrimental High Fence Trophy Hunting

3) Creating a rift between archers and all other forms of hunting

4) Use of lead ammo

5) Predator control, particularity bounties and/or year-round hunting

They claim to be hunters, yet 3 things they oppose will end hunting via attrition ( while implying the vice versa) :

1) Oppose dove hunting

2) Oppose the state pheasant stocking program

3) Oppose habitat funding

Now you're being an idiot mike. Accusations such as yours is no where near the truth, as much as you want it to be in your little head of yours. You're so far up the dove hunting fantasy you so desperately want that you are not seeing the big picture.

Ask a survey and see how many people currently use lead to hunt. Ask another survey on how many hunt predators as a means of control. Then ask how many hunters were originally not opposed to dove hunting, but after listening to your crap day in and day out, is currently opposed. I can tell you that you have at least one.

Thanks!

And I'll go as far as helping you out here. I am a hunter. I hunt. Maybe what you mean to say, but your feeble brain couldn't handle it, was "conservationist". Like many have been saying, imposing a ban on lead will surely put hunting, and conservation to a halt in a hurry. With so many that's opposed to dove hunting, particularly the neutral crowd that view them as song birds and peaceful birds, your one sided agenda to legalize it directly angers many of these neutral folks in becoming anti-hunters, jeopardizing conservation, yet again. So Mike, ask yourself this, who's really the conservationist?

And that's the "deal".

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[shawnhu]

Well brand me "UNFIT", my Grandfather ate meat shot with lead, my Dad ate meat shot with lead, I ate and still do eat meat shot with lead and both of my boys grew up eating meat shot with lead and still do. I would not change one thing and do over everything exactly the same!!!!

We have always taken care of our game meat properly, all questionable meat is removed and discarded, none of us were ever sick from lead poisoning nor do I know one single hunter who ate meat shot with lead ever to come down with some sort of lead malady!

Al

Notice the way he asked his question. He didn't ask, would you feed your child meat shot with lead, he asked if you would feed meat with LEAD IN IT. See the mentality he has?

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[DirtTime]

FSW has to be one the stupidest people on here and comes out with the stupidest crap for sure.

 

People like him and others that get the silent approval from this site are the sites downfall. Big reason why less and less folks post here.

People are posting less because because most threads end up just like this one did. In an full on font war. Most people in here are guilty of being opinionated at times, almost all of us are sarcastic smart-asses, and loud ( myself included ( we are New Yorkers ) ). That and most of the threads about hunting are flooded out to the bottom so those that just read the top 5 or what's new threads don't see the hunting threads. I do give you an 'A' for effort on that one though.

 

Now you're being an idiot mike. Accusations such as yours is no where near the truth, as much as you want it to be in your little head of yours. You're so far up the dove hunting fantasy you so desperately want that you are not seeing the big picture.

Ask a survey and see how many people currently use lead to hunt. Ask another survey on how many hunt predators as a means of control. Then ask how many hunters were originally not opposed to dove hunting, but after listening to your crap day in and day out, is currently opposed. I can tell you that you have at least one.

Thanks!

And I'll go as far as helping you out here. I am a hunter. I hunt. Maybe what you mean to say, but your feeble brain couldn't handle it, was "conservationist". Like many have been saying, imposing a ban on lead will surely put hunting, and conservation to a halt in a hurry. With so many that's opposed to dove hunting, particularly the neutral crowd that view them as song birds and peaceful birds, your one sided agenda to legalize it directly angers many of these neutral folks in becoming anti-hunters, jeopardizing conservation, yet again. So Mike, ask yourself this, who's really the conservationist?

And that's the "deal".

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

I am not opposed to dove hunting. I signed a couple petitions for it. At the same time, I really wasn't on a side. I just felt as long as it's not endangered who am I to tell someone they can't hunt doves for food? I guess I was always 'neutral' but, was able to 'see both sides'.

 

As for more surveys or debates about lead VS non-lead, they will end up just like this thread. Most people won't bother as they just want to be left alone to hunt with w/e they want to hunt with, so you end up with the same people spewing the same statements over, and over, and over..........and over.........

 

The one thing you get from threads like this, you really see the people who care about hunting as a whole, and the people who only care about certain areas within the sport. That is the sad part.

[Doc]

Here is the deal:

 

On every hunting forum there is a Doc Persona, a Four Seasons Whitetail Persona, and a Shawnhu Persona.

 

They claim  to be hunters, yet 5 things  they support will end hunting ( while implying the vice versa):

 

1) Pellet guns instead of real firearms

 

2) Expensive and detrimental High Fence Trophy Hunting 

 

3) Creating a rift between archers and all other forms of hunting

 

4) Use of lead ammo

 

5) Predator control, particularity bounties and/or year-round hunting 

 

They claim  to be hunters, yet 3 things  they oppose will end hunting via attrition ( while implying the vice versa) :

 

1) Oppose dove hunting

 

2) Oppose the state pheasant stocking program

 

3) Oppose habitat funding

You left out the mike Rossi persona who resorts to personal attacks and made up views and opinions of others when he has run out of sensible arguments. This non-reply reply is about as ridiculous a rant as I have seen on this forum so far. Your "list of offenses according to Mike" are quite a collection of fantasies. I realize that you get extremely bent out of shape when people ignore your non-stop dove hunting rants, but that  is no excuse for lying about people's views on hunting issues. The only one of those lies that you actually got right was my opposition to the pheasant stocking program (not that that has a damn thing to do with this topic). You seem to lose control whenever anyone asks questions, and instantly assume that as opposition. Well, here's a newsflash for you, if I happen to ask questions that does not mean that I am in opposition, but of course you know that don't you? That kind of dishonesty serves no one and does not lend credibility to your arguments even though it is obvious that that is your hope. Someday you may learn the difference between discussing issues and trying to ram them down the throats of others through lies and filibuster. So take your little list of whiney misrepresentations and roll them up real tight and ......................try to adopt a forum style that has a bit of honesty and integrity.

[Doc]

What? The "so-called guaranteed death sentence" is not another exaggeration? Where and who has suggested any such thing? Your default modus operandi in arguments is exaggeration.

 

The question remains: If you had a toddler today, would you feed it meat with lead in it?

 

In answer to your question, I absolutely would unless you are talking about molding the meat over a lead bar. Now would you do me the courtesy of answering my question as to how it is that I and millions of others over the centuries have consumed literally tons and tons of lead-shot killed game without ever having been diagnosed with lead poisoning. I'm not advocating anything, or trying to change anyone's mind. I simply, as before, am asking a question. Frankly I believe it is a reasonable question that any open-minded person should at least be a little curious about.

[Nate]

Wow. I read all the pages of this thread and I learned something. Rossi is a bit of an asshole. Debate it!

Edited March 19, 2016 by Nate

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Wow. I read all the pages of this thread and I learned something. Rossi is a bit of an asshole. Debate it!

You are a fast learner grasshopper!  Job well done!

[Lawdwaz]

You are a fast learner grasshopper!  Job well done!

 

So now you're condoning personal attacks?

 

 

Seems like for quite a while here all you want to do is stir the pot.  Are you like this in person? 

[Curmudgeon]

In answer to your question, I absolutely would unless you are talking about molding the meat over a lead bar. Now would you do me the courtesy of answering my question as to how it is that I and millions of others over the centuries have consumed literally tons and tons of lead-shot killed game without ever having been diagnosed with lead poisoning. I'm not advocating anything, or trying to change anyone's mind. I simply, as before, am asking a question. Frankly I believe it is a reasonable question that any open-minded person should at least be a little curious about.

 

Doc -

 

• Lead impacts at the levels discussed are incremental and chronic, not acute.
• Lead - from multiple sources - impacts the development of children, and neurologically impairs adults. Unimaginably small doses have an impact on children.
• How do you define lead poisoning? I have heard the 5 μg/dL number used to define "lead poisoning" ever since CDC lowered the threshold from 10. When my nephew reached 10 μg/dL, 20 years ago - from old house paint mostly - a casual observer would not have known he was any different for another child that age, yet he was poisoned. You and I may have met the "poisoned" threshold in our youth had anyone checked. It does not mean we cannot function above average. The consumption of lead over centuries may have actually lowered what "average" is.
• "Elevated blood lead levels and resulting health effects and disease have been well documented for people who frequent or work at indoor and outdoor firing ranges (Fischbein et al. 1979; Novotny et al. 1987; Chisholm 1988; Valway et al. 1989; Peddicord and LaKind 2000; Gulson et al. 2002)". From Human Health Risks from Lead Ammunition
• "Hunters who use lead bullets or shot, and their families, are at risk of lead poisoning in several ways: ingesting lead shot pellets or lead bullet fragments or residues in game meat, ingesting lead residue from handling lead bullets, or inhaling airborne lead during ammunition reloading or at shooting ranges (Carey 1977; Scheuhammer and Norris 1995; Tsuji et al. 1997, 1999; Scheuhammer et al. 1998; Johansen et al. 2001, 2004, 2005; Bjerregaard et al. 2004; KDHE 2004; Khan

  2005; Mateo et al. 2007)."

• You want to see a poisoned child, neurologically impaired - due only to lead from ammunition - before you believe there is a problem. I want to lower the amount of lead in human diets from all sources to minimize the well documented impacts and risks. Ammunition is one of those sources.
• Most of the older hunters on this forum have bit into a lead pellet in the past. For those who think I overstate the case, anything containing a lead pellet is tainted.
• As I have said repeatedly on this forum for the past year and a half, lead in the human diet in any significant quantity from venison is a relatively recent phenomena. The reasons: bullet construction and speed - black powered vs. modern high-speed bullets, the number of deer put into the human food chain since the advent of high-speed bullets - there were few around during the first half of the 20th Century; poor butchering practices among some commercial processors; the grinding of meat - which takes a single chunk of lead and spreads it through a large quantity of meat.

As one of the best studies on the subject found, urban kids exposed to lots of old paint and plumbing have higher lead levels than rural kids that eat game killed with lead. However, those rural kids have higher lead levels than their rural peers that do not eat game killed with lead. Most parents who know how potent this toxin is, would do everything possible to lower their child's risk.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

So now you're condoning personal attacks?

 

 

Seems like for quite a while here all you want to do is stir the pot.  Are you like this in person? 

Coming from a guy that believes he is above the rules of this site and does nothing but personal attacks  Your a joke.I would rather be me condoning than you injecting the attacks!   When someone puts up a post i either agree with it or disagree with it. 

In that case the poster hit the nail on the head.   Dont come on here and try and play second fiddle...A guy puts the post up( Like you did on another thread...GFY) and nothing is said but then someone agrees with a post and you say stir the pot?   Yeah OK!!!

[Curmudgeon]

This was actually quite interesting and productive before it got personal.

 

Maybe it is time to lock this thread.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[Lawdwaz]

Coming from a guy that believes he is above the rules of this site and does nothing but personal attacks  Your a joke.I would rather be me condoning than you injecting the attacks!   When someone puts up a post i either agree with it or disagree with it. 

In that case the poster hit the nail on the head.   Dont come on here and try and play second fiddle...A guy puts the post up( Like you did on another thread...GFY) and nothing is said but then someone agrees with a post and you say stir the pot?   Yeah OK!!!

 

You're just rambling now.......try an add some content to the site.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

This was actually quite interesting and productive before it got personal.

 

Maybe it is time to lock this thread.

You may want to lock the other 3-4 threads going where the same few keep throwing out the personal attacks also.  Just the norm on this site as of late. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You're just rambling now.......try an add some content to the site.

I would rather add little content then be like you and play the sissy name calling game. Shows your true colors.   Maybe tonight you will have a few again and we can witness rambling and personal attacks.  Try to use some new words though would ya please.

[EspressoBuzz]

In answer to your question, I absolutely would unless you are talking about molding the meat over a lead bar. Now would you do me the courtesy of answering my question as to how it is that I and millions of others over the centuries have consumed literally tons and tons of lead-shot killed game without ever having been diagnosed with lead poisoning. I'm not advocating anything, or trying to change anyone's mind. I simply, as before, am asking a question. Frankly I believe it is a reasonable question that any open-minded person should at least be a little curious about.

 

Doc, if it was missed or ignored the lead issue concerns high velocity ammo that shatters on impact creating tiny shards of lead in otherwise edible game meat. Lead pellets also are an issue since some go undiscovered until being eaten. you are correct that lead has been used since the invention of fire arms. However the issue of bullet shatter is a factor of modern time and modern ammo.

 

Now, please stop with the false and misleading cry that lead has been used for centuries and is therefore fine.

[airedale]

Doc has made no false and misleading statements, he has stated facts and the facts speak for themselves. In case you are not aware high velocity lead core bullets have been around and used in large numbers for nearly 100 years and fired these days by the millions. Those early jacketed bullets had lousy performance and shed their jackets easily on impact. It would be safe say if there was the lead poisoning problem some Doomsdayers make it out to be there would have to be plenty of evidence by now! There is still zero credible concrete proof of any hunters and their families are getting lead poisoning from consuming meat taken with such bullets.

 

Al

Edited March 19, 2016 by airedale

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Doc has made no false and misleading statements, he has stated facts and the facts speak for themselves. In case you are not aware high velocity lead core bullets have been around and used in large numbers for nearly 100 years and fired these days by the millions. Those early jacketed bullets had lousy performance and shed their jackets easily on impact. It would be safe say if there was the lead poisoning problem some Doomsdayers make it out to be there would have to be plenty of evidence by now! There is still zero credible concrete proof of any hunters and their families are getting lead poisoning from consuming meat taken with such bullets.

 

Al

Exactly..Modern times some speak of has still been long enough to show 100% contents and facts as to any extreme or long term health issues.  Just more ammo for the anti..get rid of the shooting and one wont have to worry about the lead issue.

[Doc]

Doc -

 

• Lead impacts at the levels discussed are incremental and chronic, not acute.
• Lead - from multiple sources - impacts the development of children, and neurologically impairs adults. Unimaginably small doses have an impact on children.
• How do you define lead poisoning? I have heard the 5 μg/dL number used to define "lead poisoning" ever since CDC lowered the threshold from 10. When my nephew reached 10 μg/dL, 20 years ago - from old house paint mostly - a casual observer would not have known he was any different for another child that age, yet he was poisoned. You and I may have met the "poisoned" threshold in our youth had anyone checked. It does not mean we cannot function above average. The consumption of lead over centuries may have actually lowered what "average" is.
• "Elevated blood lead levels and resulting health effects and disease have been well documented for people who frequent or work at indoor and outdoor firing ranges (Fischbein et al. 1979; Novotny et al. 1987; Chisholm 1988; Valway et al. 1989; Peddicord and LaKind 2000; Gulson et al. 2002)". From Human Health Risks from Lead Ammunition
• "Hunters who use lead bullets or shot, and their families, are at risk of lead poisoning in several ways: ingesting lead shot pellets or lead bullet fragments or residues in game meat, ingesting lead residue from handling lead bullets, or inhaling airborne lead during ammunition reloading or at shooting ranges (Carey 1977; Scheuhammer and Norris 1995; Tsuji et al. 1997, 1999; Scheuhammer et al. 1998; Johansen et al. 2001, 2004, 2005; Bjerregaard et al. 2004; KDHE 2004; Khan

  2005; Mateo et al. 2007)."

• You want to see a poisoned child, neurologically impaired - due only to lead from ammunition - before you believe there is a problem. I want to lower the amount of lead in human diets from all sources to minimize the well documented impacts and risks. Ammunition is one of those sources.
• Most of the older hunters on this forum have bit into a lead pellet in the past. For those who think I overstate the case, anything containing a lead pellet is tainted.
• As I have said repeatedly on this forum for the past year and a half, lead in the human diet in any significant quantity from venison is a relatively recent phenomena. The reasons: bullet construction and speed - black powered vs. modern high-speed bullets, the number of deer put into the human food chain since the advent of high-speed bullets - there were few around during the first half of the 20th Century; poor butchering practices among some commercial processors; the grinding of meat - which takes a single chunk of lead and spreads it through a large quantity of meat.

As one of the best studies on the subject found, urban kids exposed to lots of old paint and plumbing have higher lead levels than rural kids that eat game killed with lead. However, those rural kids have higher lead levels than their rural peers that do not eat game killed with lead. Most parents who know how potent this toxin is, would do everything possible to lower their child's risk.

You have done a good job of explaining why I should be dead or seriously debilitated by all these years of chonking on lead shot, but have failed to answer why we are not.

 

Maybe I can expect that I and all of my hunter acquaintances can expect to be seeing severe neurological symptoms of lead poisoning any day now, because so far none of it has shown up yet. 72 years of exposure so far has not done us in yet, but maybe 73 is the magic number....eh? 

 

Oh, and why are you assuming that country kids were not finding any lead based paints in those old farm-houses? Our old farm-house had layers upon layers of old nasty paint on every window and door jamb and I will guarantee that every layer was lead based paint. Perhaps we should have been laced with higher lead levels, but that does not mean that it had anything to do with eating large quantities of wild game that had been killed with lead shot. That simply shows how easy it is to get faulty studies (accidentally or purposefully) when you misinterpret causes and effects.

[Curmudgeon]

I believe Mike started this thread with the best of intentions. It is unfortunate that it became personal.

 

I found it an interesting exercise and instructive in a number of ways. What I am taking away from it is some people are really unclear on the concept of lead poisoning: what it is; what it does.

 

Keep looking for mutants and neurological cripples as proof but realize that being "unclear on the concept" in itself may be a symptom.

 

I'm done.

 

[DirtTime]

I believe Mike started this thread with the best of intentions. It is unfortunate that it became personal.

 

I found it an interesting exercise and instructive in a number of ways. What I am taking away from it is some people are really unclear on the concept of lead poisoning: what it is; what it does.

 

Keep looking for mutants and neurological cripples as proof but realize that being "unclear on the concept" in itself may be a symptom.

 

I'm done.

No, I don't think he did. It didn't take long for this thread to be about doves and lead in gut-piles leading to eagles being killed from lead. Looks like a cooperative attempt to get what you want. 

Some of us made very factual points to the first post, and then mike got twisted and wanted to either delete the thread or start a new one because he didn't like how this was going. It wasn't going his way. He even posted how dove hunters are not really on his side.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

No, I don't think he did. It didn't take long for this thread to be about doves and lead in gut-piles leading to eagles being killed from lead. Looks like a cooperative attempt to get what you want. 

Some of us made very factual points to the first post, and then mike got twisted and wanted to either delete the thread or start a new one because he didn't like how this was going. It wasn't going his way. He even posted how dove hunters are not really on his side.

That's the way he roll's. No different then the post's he put's up about shooting hand fed Pheasant's. Couple people disagree with the practice and the sky is falling in his book.