No buck hunting

[chrisw]

What I'm saying is debating with you is impossible. You refuse to see facts because they don't fit your agenda, you spew anecdotal nonsense that doesn't hold weight and you seem to know very little about herd dynamics or biology. Do you think it's coincidence every topic you start turns into you arguing with people? To which the other person finally gives up because it's going nowhere. This is me realizing you won't accept facts. It's like trying to convince PETA that hunting is helpful. It's a waste of time, much like you.

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[Buckmaster7600]

I would not hunt.


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[The_Real_TCIII]

I'd hunt. I didn't hunt 9F last year because I had other options but if it were no bucks anywhere in NY I'd hunt does. It would be the end of hunting in NY since license sales would be nil and the conservation fund would be wiped out but at least we'd have tons of 2.5 year old bucks to look at the following season lol


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

13 hours ago, stubby68 said:

       It's  called high gradeing. The older bucks do 90% of the breeding. If you kill off all the largest and oldest bucks every year each years selection gets worse and worse. You can not kill off the best of any species every year and expect it to not hurt that populations future. 

              It takes time for mother nature to put the best back into the herd after hunters have killed off all the best. Every year we he guys saying the passed on 10 or 15 little bucks and only saw one or two good bucks. Even trail cam pics show large numbers of small young bucks and only a few big old bucks.Young bucks have less of a chance of getting a doe pregnant then  older ones. Killing off all the older bucks eventuall leads to degrading of the herd. If you have 10 bucks that are under 2 1/2 and 2 that are 4 1/2 and you kill those two older ones you are left with all young bucks. The next year the oldest will be at most 3 1/2 kill them because they are the biggest and best you have left and the next year is worse.

           That 400 acres is not the only land in the area. We have another parcel of 90, a neighbor with 160, another with 78, another with 43, 18,and another 72.That makes 861 acres that the deer numbers were low on after years of high gradeing. Numbers are now on the rise. Before everyone got crazy for antlers the deer numbers were great. After the antler hunting started we saw lower and lower numbers every year. We all went back to hunting the way it was meant to be for a source of food. Numbers are coming back. Before selective hunting things were good during selective things started getting bad Stopped selective hunting things getting better again. Not too hard to see what the problem was.

        A balanced herd has a good selection of young old and middle age deer not just all young because all the biggest oldest have been made into decorations. Leave some of the older ones and take a few young and middle age one .

          I did not start this thread for an argument. With all the talk of AR and last year's two weeks doe only I was curious how many would still hunt if they couldn't hunt bucks.Most would be fine with it because they would have a lot of trophy after the 5 years. How about no bucks ever ? Bet 90 % of you would never hunt NY state again. 

You said a mouth full when you said...You can not kill off the best of any species every year....You are 100% and this holds true 10 fold with whitetails. You can try but you never will and the best of the herd will still do the breeding. In a wild situation there is always another so called trophy or Big Buck per say to fill in on the breeding when the top dog gets taken out. We had 4 top dogs breeding on the farm this year and there were 20-30 does in the fields every night.  In most places there are a lot more trophy bucks doing the breeding that people never see and most never get killed during hunting season.

[Curmudgeon]

3 hours ago, stubby68 said:

            Are you agreeing with my post? What you wrote points exactly to what I am saying. Mother nature decided that to survive the had to be fewer and less desirable of a species. Not because of her doing but because of humans high gradeing. Those humans stopped and the plant survives. How ever with trophy hunting the humans just start taking what was once considered the less desirable as there trophy. That is the problem. 

Yes, I am agreeing with your post and you got my point. Reading the responses, I am not sure everyone got yours. I thought using an example of a major change in the size of a species, induced by human behavior, in a very short time might be helpful in illustrating what you are talking about.

I also think hunters sometimes fail to realize that what they desire in a deer has nothing to do with how deer evolved. What is "best" for those seeking trophies has nothing at all to do with "natural selection". Efforts to manipulate the gene pool for big antlers is quite the opposite. It is unnatural selection with the goal of some idealized, abstraction of a deer.  

Edited December 5, 2016 by Curmudgeon
typo

[wdswtr]

13 hours ago, stubby68 said:

       It's  called high gradeing. The older bucks do 90% of the breeding. If you kill off all the largest and oldest bucks every year each years selection gets worse and worse. You can not kill off the best of any species every year and expect it to not hurt that populations future. 

              It takes time for mother nature to put the best back into the herd after hunters have killed off all the best. Every year we he guys saying the passed on 10 or 15 little bucks and only saw one or two good bucks. Even trail cam pics show large numbers of small young bucks and only a few big old bucks.Young bucks have less of a chance of getting a doe pregnant then  older ones. Killing off all the older bucks eventuall leads to degrading of the herd. If you have 10 bucks that are under 2 1/2 and 2 that are 4 1/2 and you kill those two older ones you are left with all young bucks. The next year the oldest will be at most 3 1/2 kill them because they are the biggest and best you have left and the next year is worse.

           That 400 acres is not the only land in the area. We have another parcel of 90, a neighbor with 160, another with 78, another with 43, 18,and another 72.That makes 861 acres that the deer numbers were low on after years of high gradeing. Numbers are now on the rise. Before everyone got crazy for antlers the deer numbers were great. After the antler hunting started we saw lower and lower numbers every year. We all went back to hunting the way it was meant to be for a source of food. Numbers are coming back. Before selective hunting things were good during selective things started getting bad Stopped selective hunting things getting better again. Not too hard to see what the problem was.

        A balanced herd has a good selection of young old and middle age deer not just all young because all the biggest oldest have been made into decorations. Leave some of the older ones and take a few young and middle age one .

          I did not start this thread for an argument. With all the talk of AR and last year's two weeks doe only I was curious how many would still hunt if they couldn't hunt bucks.Most would be fine with it because they would have a lot of trophy after the 5 years. How about no bucks ever ? Bet 90 % of you would never hunt NY state again. 

This https://www.qdma.com/will-dominant-bucks-dominate-breeding/

And do some research on Doe genetics

Your theory is delusional at best

Edited December 5, 2016 by wdswtr

[Culvercreek hunt club]

32 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Yes, I am agreeing with your post and you got my point. Reading the responses, I am not sure everyone got yours. I thought using an example of a major change in the size of a species, induced by human behavior, in a very short time might be helpful in illustrating what you are talking about.

I also think hunters sometimes fail to realize that what they desire in a deer has nothing to do with how deer evolved. What is "best" for those seeking trophies has nothing at all to do with "natural selection". Efforts to manipulate the gene pool for big antlers is quite the opposite. It is unnatural selection with the goal of some idealized, abstraction of a deer.  

But you example is for a stationary plant in a fairly isolated area. That is not even comparable to a wild whitetail population. but you knew that. very very few control enough property to impart a real influence on the whitetails genetics. Yes you can effect the population, sex ration and even the age structure but is in not a confined test tube and to suggest you could have an impact on the genetic make up is ridiculous. 

[NFA-ADK]

Delusional keeps coming up and I have to agree.  You need to study biology and deer mating much more to understand what is going on and apparently you have not done this but want to go with what you see on your small plot of land and state this as fact.

Simply put if they stopped buck hunting for 5 years I would have 5 years of no hunting in NY. 

Your logic is flawed Stubby, read some more books and you might understand.

Trophy hunters have some of the best hunting grounds I have ever been on.  The guys who shoot anything that is not a yearling have some of the worst populations I have ever hunted.  Nothing to do with big bucks but population in general.

[stubby68]

13 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

You said a mouth full when you said...You can not kill off the best of any species every year....You are 100% and this holds true 10 fold with whitetails. You can try but you never will and the best of the herd will still do the breeding. In a wild situation there is always another so called trophy or Big Buck per say to fill in on the breeding when the top dog gets taken out. We had 4 top dogs breeding on the farm this year and there were 20-30 does in the fields every night.  In most places there are a lot more trophy bucks doing the breeding that people never see and most never get killed during hunting season.

             Stop thinking of farm raised in a controlled setting with food plots and feeders aviable. And predators very controlled.

                   Yes in the wild there a few bucks that never get seen. Very few. The ones that are never seen do little to no breeding. They only move to eat and are waiting to die.Only time they get seen or killed is when someone stumbles on to them. These bucks are so few in number and do so little breeding they have no effect on the herd at all.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

12 minutes ago, NFA-ADK said:

Delusional keeps coming up and I have to agree.  You need to study biology and deer mating much more to understand what is going on and apparently you have not done this but want to go with what you see on your small plot of land and state this as fact.

Simply put if they stopped buck hunting for 5 years I would have 5 years of no hunting in NY. 

Your logic is flawed Stubby, read some more books and you might understand.

Trophy hunters have some of the best hunting grounds I have ever been on.  The guys who shoot anything that is not a yearling have some of the worst populations I have ever hunted.  Nothing to do with big bucks but population in general.

So True! Thats because the Trophy hunter with Trophy lands does not pull the trigger everyday and mess up the land and hunting. We see 2-3 little bucks and 10-15 does and fawns in the fields and woods we hunt about every day. This year we even had a mature 11 and 8 pointers going at it in a wide open pasture at 10 oclock in the morning. Not many places you can see that going on.  Dont shoot every deer you see and you will continue to have great hunting.

[stubby68]

12 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

But you example is for a stationary plant in a fairly isolated area. That is not even comparable to a wild whitetail population. but you knew that. very very few control enough property to impart a real influence on the whitetails genetics. Yes you can effect the population, sex ration and even the age structure but is in not a confined test tube and to suggest you could have an impact on the genetic make up is ridiculous. 

       Thanks for trying to explain it better. Actually my example can be used on wildlife as well and is. High gradeingrade in Comercial  fishing is a problem and is shown to hurt fish populations and they are not stationary.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

7 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

             Stop thinking of farm raised in a controlled setting with food plots and feeders aviable. And predators very controlled.

                   Yes in the wild there a few bucks that never get seen. Very few. The ones that are never seen do little to no breeding. They only move to eat and are waiting to die.Only time they get seen or killed is when someone stumbles on to them. These bucks are so few in number and do so little breeding they have no effect on the herd at all.

Wow...You are worse than i thought. You must have some pretty shitty hunting in your area. Learn deer and breeding and what goes on on a managed piece of property and then come see me.  Everything i do behind my fence i also do on hundreds of acres.  Yea a deer is a deer regardless of what side the fence it stands on!

[wdswtr]

11 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

             

                   Yes in the wild there a few bucks that never get seen. Very few. The ones that are never seen do little to no breeding. They only move to eat and are waiting to die.Only time they get seen or killed is when someone stumbles on to them. These bucks are so few in number and do so little breeding they have no effect on the herd at all.

I dont care who you are, thats funny right there.  

Edited December 5, 2016 by wdswtr

[stubby68]

12 hours ago, NFA-ADK said:

Delusional keeps coming up and I have to agree.  You need to study biology and deer mating much more to understand what is going on and apparently you have not done this but want to go with what you see on your small plot of land and state this as fact.

Simply put if they stopped buck hunting for 5 years I would have 5 years of no hunting in NY. 

Your logic is flawed Stubby, read some more books and you might understand.

Trophy hunters have some of the best hunting grounds I have ever been on.  The guys who shoot anything that is not a yearling have some of the worst populations I have ever hunted.  Nothing to do with big bucks but population in general.

         The best land is not the one with the most big bucks. The best land is one with lots of deer of all sizes and ages. Yes read books write by people who never go in the woods and get all there info from controlled studies. Those are the ones who know not the guys who are out there almost every day seeing it first hand. I know what has happened in our area because I am there all the time ever and was one of those who started the change that is fixing the problem.

[stubby68]

12 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Wow...You are worse than i thought. You must have some pretty shitty hunting in your area. Learn deer and breeding and what goes on on a managed piece of property and then come see me.  Everything i do behind my fence i also do on hundreds of acres.  Yea a deer is a deer regardless of what side the fence it stands on!

            The hunting was crappie on the land but since we took over and stopped the trophy hunting the hunting gets better every year. The neighbors saw this and asked what we were doing. When we told them they did not believe it. However the change they saw proved it. Now they do the same thing and every year is better then the last.

[stubby68]

12 hours ago, wdswtr said:

I dont care who you are, thats funny right there.  

What you think every buck breeds ? Maybe you guys should stop listening to the cap qdma keeps putting out there. A quality deer herd doesn't mean having all huge old bucks as they like to push. If you are old enough think back to the days when deer numbers were great through the whole state. How did people hunt then ? Did they go for trophy or for meat? It was meat. What are most hunters looking for now? TROPHYS. deer are now way over populated in some areas and way under in others.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

7 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

            The hunting was crappie on the land but since we took over and stopped the trophy hunting the hunting gets better every year. The neighbors saw this and asked what we were doing. When we told them they did not believe it. However the change they saw proved it. Now they do the same thing and every year is better then the last.

Well ya if a person is happy shooting baby deer and pretty much anything that walks it will change. You could not have done crap to stop trophy hunting. You telling me they just dont come on your land any longer or is it that just nobody can shoot them. Our property is only miles from you and i can show you evety age class of bucks and i can show you piles of ladies and kids in the fields even today in the middle of the season and i can show you the now alot smarter trophy bucks that are still there just by the grace of trail cam's.  I dont care how good someone thinks they are you are not going to even get a quarter of the trophy mature bucks of of a good well managed piece of property that is of good size and can be controlled. When they have everything they need at home they dont have to leave and then they dont get shot elsewhere.  Pretty simple stuff really!  When you have all the pieces of the puzzle!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

11 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

What you think every buck breeds ? Maybe you guys should stop listening to the cap qdma keeps putting out there. A quality deer herd doesn't mean having all huge old bucks as they like to push. If you are old enough think back to the days when deer numbers were great through the whole state. How did people hunt then ? Did they go for trophy or for meat? It was meat. What are most hunters looking for now? TROPHYS. deer are now way over populated in some areas and way under in others.

So where did all the does and young bucks go that were in those populated spots?  Trophy guys shoot them?

[wdswtr]

14 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

What you think every buck breeds ? Maybe you guys should stop listening to the cap qdma keeps putting out there. A quality deer herd doesn't mean having all huge old bucks as they like to push. If you are old enough think back to the days when deer numbers were great through the whole state. How did people hunt then ? Did they go for trophy or for meat? It was meat. What are most hunters looking for now? TROPHYS. deer are now way over populated in some areas and way under in others.

Apparently you also do not know what QDMA is.  Its quality deer management not quality big buck management.  Dont feel bad there are many who do not understand this either.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

26 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

         The best land is not the one with the most big bucks. The best land is one with lots of deer of all sizes and ages. Yes read books write by people who never go in the woods and get all there info from controlled studies. Those are the ones who know not the guys who are out there almost every day seeing it first hand. I know what has happened in our area because I am there all the time ever and was one of those who started the change that is fixing the problem.

The best land is actually land with a well balanced herd that is sized  below the carrying capacity. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

18 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

What you think every buck breeds ? Maybe you guys should stop listening to the cap qdma keeps putting out there. A quality deer herd doesn't mean having all huge old bucks as they like to push. If you are old enough think back to the days when deer numbers were great through the whole state. How did people hunt then ? Did they go for trophy or for meat? It was meat. What are most hunters looking for now? TROPHYS. deer are now way over populated in some areas and way under in others.

Better to a little research about their principles. you couldn't be more wrong. 

[wdswtr]

16 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Well ya if a person is happy shooting baby deer and pretty much anything that walks it will change. You could not have done crap to stop trophy hunting. You telling me they just dont come on your land any longer or is it that just nobody can shoot them. Our property is only miles from you and i can show you evety age class of bucks and i can show you piles of ladies and kids in the fields even today in the middle of the season and i can show you the now alot smarter trophy bucks that are still there just by the grace of trail cam's.  I dont care how good someone thinks they are you are not going to even get a quarter of the trophy mature bucks of of a good well managed piece of property that is of good size and can be controlled. When they have everything they need at home they dont have to leave and then they dont get shot elsewhere.  Pretty simple stuff really!  When you have all the pieces of the puzzle!

If this is true and your within say 5 miles of him, your very own management practices have played a large role in his deer herd.  This is what most these guys dont get.  The bucks born on his property arent staying there, if anything him shooting young age class deer effects his neighbors in a 5 mile radius and vice versa.  

[stubby68]

12 hours ago, wdswtr said:

Apparently you also do not know what QDMA is.  Its quality deer management not quality big buck management.  Dont feel bad there are many who do not understand this either.

      Then why ever time qdma talks the main they say is it helps get older bigger bucks. Ask how qdma  helps the herd the first and last thing that is said. Bigger bucks. And of corse bigger bucks always means a healthier herd. 

[stubby68]

12 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

So where did all the does and young bucks go that were in those populated spots?  Trophy guys shoot them?

Shoot off all the breeding bucks and the doe leave. the smaller ones fallow. That and each the big bucks get smaller and smaller because all the biggest have been killed. And the next trophy is smaller. Eventually that causes less doe being bred. Which in turn causes lower numbers. If few bucks to do the breeding the does will move to where the bucks are.  Some species of animal can change sex  when more of the opposite see is needed to populate. Others will move to where there in a higher number of needed sex. Bucks are not the only ones who will travel to breed. Does will when buck numbers are not there.

[wdswtr]

7 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

      Then why ever time qdma talks the main they say is it helps get older bigger bucks. Ask how qdma  helps the herd the first and last thing that is said. Bigger bucks. And of corse bigger bucks always means a healthier herd. 

Do you understand the only way to get bigger and older age class deer is to have a diversified healthy herd that is balanced to the lands herd capacity?  To get this older class herd you must have a younger class to grow up.   You honestly dont know what qdma is.