Muzzleloader ideas

[Buckmaster7600]

i've compared CVA wolf and optima ml with my TC Prohunter and it's night and day difference.  My TC is just made better.  that said there's probably less of a difference with the premium barreled CVA Apex and Accura's.  Also do i think an Optima that i bought was a 1/3 the gun of the TC is when looking at price difference?  Nope.  You get what you pay for but CVA makes a great gun for the $.

Until last year my go to muzzleloader was a TC Triumph that I literally wore out, not the barrel but the locking mechanism and hinge. I got the triumph when they first came out 10 years ago. I sent it back to TC when it started opening after every shot and they sent me a brand new Bone Collector as that was the current comparable gun. I have never even shot the bone collector because it fm doesn't have anywhere near the fit and finish and overall quality that the triumph had.

My accura will outshoot my pro hunter day in and day out and it weighs almost 3 lbs less.

I think TC makes a good product and their customer service is outstanding. When I sent my triumph in I was hoping it was just a new pin. The gun was in beyond terrible shape had had been shot an ungodly amount of times. Their customer service called me within 2 weeks of sending it to them and informed me that it was beyond repair and that they were very sorry for the inconvenience but asked if I would be ok with a new one. Hard to beat that kind of customer support.


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[airedale]

Also do not discount the traditional sidelock rifles, they can be very capable, accurate and are a lot of fun. Like a recurve or long bow they are very rewarding when you take game with one.

I have three at this time, a Thompson Hawken 45 cal assembled from a bunch of parts with a stainless Green Mountain barrel, a Thompson Center 45 cal Cherokee that is light weight and sweet and a CVA Hawken Kit gun in 50 cal that my boys bought me for Christmas one year, it is a decent shooter.

Al

Edited August 1, 2017 by airedale

[vizslas]

speed breech would be something I would consider.Also if you plan on using loose powder,,  the shape of the breech plug is important. Blackhorn 209 needs a concave breech in order to fire properly. A break action is also nice. I shoot a tc omega. Its my go to gun when i want to drop a deer. Work up a load and just about any gun will shoot well enough to get the job done, but its the little things that make it easier. Shooting deer is easy loading your weapon shouldnt be hard.

[slickrockpack]

build or buy  62 cal flintlock fowler, the original swiss army knife of guns. bears and moose to woodcock and snipe.

roundball to shot.

 

Edited August 28, 2017 by slickrockpack
wrong photo

[slickrockpack]

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 7/30/2017 at 0:03 PM, turkeyfeathers said:

Pretty sure the Wolf gets a good nod from guys on here.

Buddy had a wolf. it was terrible. Would not go bang on every shot. There was an issue with the firing pin and trigger assembly. That said the customer service was top notch. they replaced the gun and the one they sent him was  an Optima V2 and that thing is a sweet shooter. Will keep right up with my Encore out to about 150 yards

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 8/1/2017 at 0:45 PM, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

Until last year my go to muzzleloader was a TC Triumph that I literally wore out, not the barrel but the locking mechanism and hinge. I got the triumph when they first came out 10 years ago. I sent it back to TC when it started opening after every shot and they sent me a brand new Bone Collector as that was the current comparable gun. I have never even shot the bone collector because it fm doesn't have anywhere near the fit and finish and overall quality that the triumph had.

My accura will outshoot my pro hunter day in and day out and it weighs almost 3 lbs less.

I think TC makes a good product and their customer service is outstanding. When I sent my triumph in I was hoping it was just a new pin. The gun was in beyond terrible shape had had been shot an ungodly amount of times. Their customer service called me within 2 weeks of sending it to them and informed me that it was beyond repair and that they were very sorry for the inconvenience but asked if I would be ok with a new one. Hard to beat that kind of customer support.


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Have you seen some of the custom barrel work for the Encores using smokeless powder in a ML barrel?

[Buckmaster7600]

Have you seen some of the custom barrel work for the Encores using smokeless powder in a ML barrel?

Yea, but I have no desire to go that route. Recoil becomes insane and long barrels are long and both of those are deal breakers.


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[Five Seasons]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:59 AM, Swamp_bucks said:

Wife said i could finally get a muzzleloader.  On a budget of about $250 looking at cva wolf or optima v2, traditions buck stalker , or TC impact .  Dont want one with a scope want to keep it a little more of a challenge and to possibly change out with wood stock in future. What do you suggest.  Anyone have issues with the ones i listed? Thanks for the imput.

not buying a scope will save you for sure. I have a cva optima and i really like their guns. the wolf is highly regarded. Mine was a gift and if i could do it again though I would really recommend the stainless barrel. None of my long guns are stainless, and they're all fine. However, i think smokepoles or least my optima (not v2) regardless of how well i tried to care for it and how quick i cleaned it, the barrel has rusted some. 

i'd also say to look new, not used for smoke poles. 

[Five Seasons]

On 7/30/2017 at 0:41 PM, sethf11 said:

 

Late season in the snow with a muzzleloader is fun. Cold but fun. I love chasing the deer around and the opportunity to shoot a doe if the season hasn't been very good. Can't beat it. I love going when everyone else already threw the towel in and are at home watching tv. I was out in -10 degrees last year in mid December.


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have had some amazing second rut activity during that week. Like you said it's even more fun with snow on the ground.

[Five Seasons]

On 7/31/2017 at 9:38 AM, stubby68 said:

   I know I will catch a lot of cap for this ,but. I did alot of research before i got my first muzzy. I won't even stand next to someone shooting a cva. There are just to many horror stories of breeches blowing up and people getting injured. I know they have gotten better over the years but still do not trust them. There are no standards for production of muzzle loaders and cva , at least a a few years ago used very cheap metal in the production of there guns to lower cost andown be able to sell a low cost gun. This lead to breaches and barrels blowing up. I know it is long but this is just one case I copied as an example. They all have issued but I have never come across so many as I have the cva. I like my traditions and my thompson. Everyone has there own likes. Just for the record I hate knight as well. Just my 2 cents. And as I said I assume they have gotten better over the years.or at least I hope they have.

 

---

CVA VOLUNTARY RECALL NOTICE:

In August 1997 CVA implemented a Voluntary Recall of In-Line rifle models with serial numbers ending in -95 and -96. If you have a CVA In-Line model with such a serial number, DO NOT USE OR ALLOW ANYONE ELSE TO USE THE GUN. If you have one of these rifles, please call CVA immediately at 770-449-4687 for complete details and a free replacement gun. Example serial numbers: 61-13-XXXXXX-95 or 61-13-XXXXXX-96.

In May 1999 Blackpowder Products, Inc. purchased the assets of Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc. and now operates under the trade name of Connecticut Valley Arms and/or CVA. Any claims relating to the above described Voluntary Recall should be addressed to Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc., not Blackpowder Products, Inc. Blackpowder Products, Inc. assumes no liability for any products manufactured prior to January 1, 1998.

2 thoughts. A lot of manufacturers have had recalls (see remingtons 700 nightmare). that one is 20 years old.

Other thought is that I muzzle loaders aren't as simple to shoot as some guns. And lets not discount the fact that there are many idiots out there. My optima came with special tool to tighten the breach. I can see some idiot overloading powder, not tightening the plug or any other countless mistakes that could lead to incident. The smokepole is not just, load bullet, squeeze trigger.

[Five Seasons]

On 8/1/2017 at 0:43 AM, stubby68 said:

Doesn't matter who makes the barrle. The supplier makes them to the standards of the customer. If the customer request a lower standard that is what they get. No regs on the the standards of muzz loaders let them request the barrels be made to lower standards then other companies wanted thus allowing for lower manufacture cost and lower cost to customer. Many other companies have barrels made at same factories yet never had the problems because they had higher standerds. As for over loading powder in gun. It was proven many times that fault was with the weaker barrle not the user. 

this isn't always true. suppliers constantly fail to make things to spec. sure it's CVA's responsibility to do final inspect. I can tell you that the company i work for sends stuff into space and suppliers still dont meet our spec all the time. 

[Five Seasons]

On 8/1/2017 at 0:27 PM, dbHunterNY said:

i've compared CVA wolf and optima ml with my TC Prohunter and it's night and day difference.  My TC is just made better.  that said there's probably less of a difference with the premium barreled CVA Apex and Accura's.  Also do i think an Optima that i bought was a 1/3 the gun of the TC is when looking at price difference?  Nope.  You get what you pay for but CVA makes a great gun for the $.

i don't think any wolf owner will claim their gun is better than a TC. To your point, it comes down to value and if it's still worth it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 hour ago, Belo said:

i don't think any wolf owner will claim their gun is better than a TC. To your point, it comes down to value and if it's still worth it.

ti does come down to how much better does it have to be. Like I said, my buddy's Optima will shoot as consistent as My Encore (and his is less touchy having to clean between shots). You couldn't tell the grouping difference out to 150 yards between his Optima and my Encore. Of all the deer I have shot with my Encore only 2 were over 150 and his still would have delivered vital shots at the distances. I will say the big difference in the two are in the triggers.  But you are point on. For our normal hunting distances about any reputable ML manufacturer will put out a product that will take deer inside 100 yards. all day long.  if it's not workign well, chances are it is us or a rare lemon

Edited August 28, 2017 by Culvercreek hunt club

[dbHunterNY]

i don't think any wolf owner will claim their gun is better than a TC. To your point, it comes down to value and if it's still worth it.

When I bought it i was new to muzzleloading. I was going on a destination hunt and told by my cousin the guide that I had to shoot 200+ yards. I bought something i knew would make any issue me and not the gun. They all can really get the job down though otherwise they wouldn't continue to be on the shelf without issue.

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[Buckmaster7600]

ti does come down to how much better does it have to be. Like I said, my buddy's Optima will shoot as consistent as My Encore (and his is less touchy having to clean between shots). You couldn't tell the grouping difference out to 150 yards between his Optima and my Encore. Of all the deer I have shot with my Encore only 2 were over 150 and his still would have delivered vital shots at the distances. I will say the big difference in the two are in the triggers.  But you are point on. For our normal hunting distances about any reputable ML manufacturer will put out a product that will take deer inside 100 yards. all day long.  if it's not workign well, chances are it is us or a rare lemon

I don't understand how it is as accurate as the TC out to 150? What happens after that?


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

I don't understand how it is as accurate as the TC out to 150? What happens after that?

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His groupings really start to open up compared to mine. Both sitting in a lead sled too. I dealing with minute of vitals not MOA.

[Buckmaster7600]

His groupings really start to open up compared to mine. Both sitting in a lead sled too. I dealing with minute of vitals not MOA.

That has everything to do with shooter/projectile and absolutely nothing to do with what it's coming out of.


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

That has everything to do with shooter/projectile and absolutely nothing to do with what it's coming out of.


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Same bullet. Same sabot. Same powder in same quantity and like I said, both in my lead sled.

[dbHunterNY]

14 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Same bullet. Same sabot. Same powder in same quantity and like I said, both in my lead sled.

i think that means yours is just shooting it well enough with better or more consistent sabot fit/engagement with the rifling.  i've noticed between the two barrel and bore quality is night and day.  that said if they both work out to 150 yards then shoot that far and the dead deer don't say any different.

[Five Seasons]

14 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

That has everything to do with shooter/projectile and absolutely nothing to do with what it's coming out of.


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Then why they make them fancy rifles everyone pays big money for? Why doesn't everyone including army snipers shoot a cheapo?

[Buckmaster7600]

Then why they make them fancy rifles everyone pays big money for? Why doesn't everyone including army snipers shoot a cheapo?

My point is, if a weapon is capable of holding a good group at 150yds there is nothing the rifle has to do with a group going away after 150. A group going away that fast most likely is the shooter, and could be the bullet.

The reason everyone doesn't buy cheapo' is quality/consistency. The days of having to spend a lot of money to get an accurate gun are long gone.


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

4 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

My point is, if a weapon is capable of holding a good group at 150yds there is nothing the rifle has to do with a group going away after 150. A group going away that fast most likely is the shooter, and could be the bullet.

The reason everyone doesn't buy cheapo' is quality/consistency. The days of having to spend a lot of money to get an accurate gun are long gone.


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I wasn't talking about decimals of an inch group compared between the two. We are talking about hunting weapons. My Encore holding a 1 and a half inch group at 150 yards and his Optima holding a 4"" group at 150 yards it absolutely just as accurate and effective in hunting situations. Both are a vital shot dead deer. just as good as each other.  push that to 250 and I am not happy with the optima's performance.  That is why I mentioned minute of deer for accuracy. 

[vizslas]

just because you say it holding out to 150 tells me that it going off target way before 150 yards. yadda yadda yadda . truth is that its a different gun with a different barrel and a different breech plug.. there is no way it should be shooting the same load with the same powder and be just as "hunting accurate" that seems to be a made up slogan to help someone justify a poorly shooting gun... aim a little high ,pull a trigger or breath different. there goes the shot and a wounded deer.If your group is outside 2 inches at 150 yards your gun is loaded wrong. Powder charge, bullet, primer,sabot. you could probably narrow it down with some homework.Now this doesnt mean someone is a bad shooter, Its just that its a chaotic world and not everyone has the time to spend at the range, or its possible that good enough is well just that good enough.I nailed a buck last year in the heart at 200 yards with a load i worked up for my triumph.Time spent in the lab usually yields in good results.it might be as simple as just downsizing the powder charge. keep working at it . There are way to many variables to leave it at 4 inches.... for the deers sake , dont miss. put yourself out there who would you want shooting at you. Mister inch and a half  or mister 4 inch.

On 8/29/2017 at 9:01 AM, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I wasn't talking about decimals of an inch group compared between the two. We are talking about hunting weapons. My Encore holding a 1 and a half inch group at 150 yards and his Optima holding a 4"" group at 150 yards it absolutely just as accurate and effective in hunting situations. Both are a vital shot dead deer. just as good as each other.  push that to 250 and I am not happy with the optima's performance.  That is why I mentioned minute of deer for accuracy. 

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

just because you say it holding out to 150 tells me that it going off target way before 150 yards. yadda yadda yadda . truth is that its a different gun with a different barrel and a different breech plug.. there is no way it should be shooting the same load with the same powder and be just as "hunting accurate" that seems to be a made up slogan to help someone justify a poorly shooting gun... aim a little high ,pull a trigger or breath different. there goes the shot and a wounded deer.If your group is outside 2 inches at 150 yards your gun is loaded wrong. Powder charge, bullet, primer,sabot. you could probably narrow it down with some homework.Now this doesnt mean someone is a bad shooter, Its just that its a chaotic world and not everyone has the time to spend at the range, or its possible that good enough is well just that good enough.I nailed a buck last year in the heart at 200 yards with a load i worked up for my triumph.Time spent in the lab usually yields in good results.it might be as simple as just downsizing the powder charge. keep working at it . There are way to many variables to leave it at 4 inches.... for the deers sake , dont miss. put yourself out there who would you want shooting at you. Mister inch and a half  or mister 4 inch.
 

Well Richard noggin I can tell you this. When he hunts with the optima it is in areas that are under 100 yards. He chose the load because that is what most in our group have been using. Sure he could probably get it better but why bother if the gun exceeds the conditions you will be hunting in Especially when you are talking about 3-4 days of hunting. With my encore I am perfectly happy with the group at 150. I'd be fine pushing it to 200. I've taken 3 deer at 170 plus with it and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. What size is a vital organ, broad size target on a whitetail?