Mature bucks and scouts

[wolc123]

When I look back at the last (6) mature bucks (for me that means 2.5 years or older) that I have killed, I find it very interesting that 1/2 of them used scouts of one form or another.  I had heard of that for crow hunting, but it is very clear to me that whitetail bucks also utilize scouts.   My 3.5 year old gun-buck from 2012 employed a flock of wild turkeys as his scouts. I shot that buck in heavy cover, right in the middle of that flock of turkeys, wearing a blaze orange camo jacket, and having just descended from a tree stand that was above the patch of cover.   

My 2.5 year crossbow buck from 2016 used tiny-bodied, 1.5 year old 3-pointer as his scout.  That little buck walked 10 yards from me, stood broadside, and looked away, almost begging me to shoot him.  less that two minutes after I gave him a pass and he walked into the adjacent cover, the larger buck appeared from the same spot he did.   The rack on this one was significantly larger, and the body looked to be at least 2X in size.   He took a slightly different path and did not offer quite as easy of shot, but there is no doubt that he would have lived, had i shot the scout.  I got a good look at the little scout a couple weeks later, when a neighbor killed him by accident.  He did not see the tiny rack, and he thought he was a doe.

Dejevu happened with my 3.5 year old crossbow buck this year.  This time both the big buck and the little buck were considerably larger.   Even though it happened in the first hour of daylight on opening day of crossbow season, I was sorely tempted by the 3-point scout.   His rack was significantly larger than that from 2016.  His neck was swollen and his body looked fairly large as he began to work a scrape just 10 yards from my stand.   He stood up on his back legs, to reach the licking branch above the scrape, offering me a perfect Biz-o-world type "shirt-pocket" shot.   It was all I could do to hold off, but maybe, just maybe, history would repeat itself.

Sure enough, less than (5) minutes later, Mr big 8 shows up.   Mr big 8, once again appeared from the exact same spot, but he hung up about 50 yards out, locking eye contact with me.  I won the stare down, and eventually he started moving closer.   I moved my eye towards my scope, taking full advantage of the crossbows ability to fire without a rapid draw movement.   It was awesome watching him walk into the viewing field of the scope and only needing to move my trigger finger when he stopped, with his chest aligned with the crosshairs.          

[Rattler]

Big buck have been doing this forever.  Whenever you see a line of doe, if there's a buck in that line, he will be the last one in the line.  Smaller bucks always walk in front of the big one.  I've seen very large 8 point bucks followed by even bigger 10 point bucks.  Older experienced bucks know this is the way to survive.  If they were men, they would be vilified for sending women and children into the mine field ahead of them. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Rattler

[wolc123]

4 hours ago, Rattler said:

Big buck have been doing this forever.  Whenever you see a line of doe, if there's a buck in that line, he will be the last one in the line.  Smaller bucks always walk in front of the big one.  I've seen very large 8 point bucks followed by even bigger 10 point bucks.  Older experienced bucks know this is the way to survive.  If they were men, they would be vilified for sending women and children into the mine field ahead of them. 

I see that a lot late in the rut or post rut.  I always attributed it to the fact that the bucks basically stop eating during the rut and loose strength in their legs, while the does continue to feed and remain strong and fast.  I think that is part of nature's way of protecting the mature females from predators like wolves and coyotes.  They can catch up with the rutted out bucks but the mature does are the hardest for them to catch, and the most necessary for the survival of the species.   Mature bucks and fawns are more "expendable".  That is just basic "nature 101".   

The mature bucks hanging around with a "little buddy", before and during the early rut seems to be an entirely different phenomena.  It is almost like they are thinking "lets see if he makes it thru there safely, before I come out".  That definitely seemed to be the case with the two 3-point - 8-point pairs at my place in 2016 and 2019.  Each of those mature bucks was killed from a big two-story blind that has been in the same place for about 10 years.  I think the older bucks associated the blind with danger, and refused to pass it in the daylight until their little buddies made it thru.   

In the case of the wild turkey scouts: in that particular woods, I frequently see deer and turkey together.   Each species seems to use the other for their particular stronger senses.  The deer appreciate the turkey's superior eyesight, while the turkeys benefit from the stronger sense of smell of the deer.  It is kind of like the convoy systems that kept freighters safer from subs during WW I and II.          

 

[Rattler]

Deer and turkey do hang together quite often though.  It seems they have an innate understanding they benefit from this symbiotic relationship.  The deer can alert the turkey to dangers they cannot smell and the turkey can alert the deer to danger they cannot see.  I've seen this many times in the woods during hunting season and neither one seems to mind the other's presence.  They actually seem to desire it.

[Hunter007]

I noticed the squirrels seem to hang out in the general area of deer also .  Don't know if that is for protection more then likely its because they both like feeding on nut producing trees .

[Hunter007]

12 minutes ago, blackbeltbill said:

Right Rattler- that is what is going on. Deer + Turkey are always together and Squirrels are close to them as well. All 3 are connected.

Could be because they  favor the same food source ,  nuts 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Hunter007

[Four Season Whitetail's]

A couple year old deer will never be close to a mature deer. Where as every year that goes by they get smarter they in no way use a "Scout". Let a "Hot"Doe be on a field and he will be the first one out. With age comes wisdom no doubt hence the actions of a Whitetail Bucks actions as his life evolves. Except maybe that special time of the year. No Whitetail rut and very few older bucks would ever be killed.


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[Hunter007]

4 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

A couple year old deer will never be close to a mature deer. Where as every year that goes by they get smarter they in no way use a "Scout". Let a "Hot"Doe be on a field and he will be the first one out. With age comes wisdom no doubt hence the actions of a Whitetail Bucks actions as his life evolves. Except maybe that special time of the year. No Whitetail rut and very few older bucks would ever be killed.


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Maybe  deer are  like humans the older ones  are less horny so they are less likely to do something  that gets them introuble lol  

[NFA-ADK]

Deer and Turkey are known to hang out together.  Usually it's due to food source but they do seem to like each others company and like stated above a deer with his smell and turkey with eye sight are hard to approach without getting busted.  Anything in the woods long enough will react to squirrels especially deer with there good hearing.  They won't always move but if something is heard moving they will respond just to see what is present and if it is a real danger.  Squirrels react to a variety of things not all are danger to deer.   

Bucks have been using young deer as decoys for years watching for movement when they get to an opening.  No not all will do this but enough do that it is a known fact, doe do the same with fawns.  I believe it is usually a younger deer that comes back after the bachelor group has broken up and he is not sure where to go and the older buck for some strange reason allows him to be at his side as he is no real threat and can be run off if a hot doe is present.  JMO.  

True maturity starts at 3.5 with full development of bone structure.  Full muscle development usually happens around 4 - 5 years old depending on food, genetics and stress. 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by NFA-ADK

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It's been going on for years. It's not scouts it's the way of the animal. The dumbest deer in the woods is the button buck. He is usually the first to hit the field. Along with his sister maybe or Doe fawns. Then the yearlings and does file out with older bucks bringing up the rear. It's about knowledge of safety. When they feel the safest to move- Darkness. If one was to ever get to watch a balanced herd operate it would be very easy to see. Ny and the pressure skews the ways of the animals even more. In some of our spots trail cams show the movement of some deer and they walk by just before dark from their bedding area and they are walking back in before daylight.


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[Whereareyoubuck]

One day during the peak of the rut this year, I watched the 2 regulars...both 4-pointers...that I had been seeing every day. Then a 6-pointer I had never seen before comes in. I give him a pass, and a few minutes later, ANOTHER 6-pointer comes in, even bigger. At this point, my buck fever was so bad that I foolishly thought that this guy was the 10-pointer I had been watching for 3 years, so I shot him before positively identifying him. When I walked up to him and realized that it was only a 6-pointer, I kicked myself and wondered what would have happened if I had let him pass too...

Ever since that day, I have not seen a single mature buck, in person or on my trail cameras...

Edited December 4, 2019 by Whereareyoubuck

[TreeGuy]

I disagree with the scout theory. "mature" bucks are typically loners, and only found in packs when it's rut or yarding season late winter. Are there times when a mature will stay at the back of a pack, yes, late season when he's worn out from a hard rut and is lazy and doesn't want to work - smell, eyes, snow etc.

Or spring of the year, which I'll assume the bachelor groups are learning the competition and checking around and taking notes on does.

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[wolc123]

On 12/4/2019 at 5:30 PM, TreeGuy said:

I disagree with the scout theory. "mature" bucks are typically loners, and only found in packs when it's rut or yarding season late winter. Are there times when a mature will stay at the back of a pack, yes, late season when he's worn out from a hard rut and is lazy and doesn't want to work - smell, eyes, snow etc.

Or spring of the year, which I'll assume the bachelor groups are learning the competition and checking around and taking notes on does.

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Per FSW, the 2.5 that I killed in 2016 was not "mature", but this year's 3.5 might just make the cut.  He was pre-rut, as his neck was not swelled up yet and there was still lots of fat on him.   Certainly, the 3 pointer that preceded him, by less 5 minutes, might fit the definition of a "scout".  Had I killed him, the big 8 might still be breathing.   

I can't help but wonder how many folks are missing chances at larger bucks, by shooting the first smaller one that walks into range, no matter what part of the season it might be.   My examples occurred pre or early rut.  Having seen this happen twice with my own eyes, you will have a hard time convincing me that older bucks do not use younger scouts.   They certainly do at my place.          

Have you ever passed on a smaller buck and then had a significantly larger (and at least a year older) buck, appear from the same spot less than 5 minutes later ?   If so, do you think there was any type of "relationship" between the pair ?    In both of my cases, I doubt that the smaller/younger bucks were aware of how they were being "used" by the larger/older bucks.   I have little doubt that the older bucks knew exactly what they were doing however.    

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Per FSW, the 2.5 that I killed in 2016 was not "mature", but this year's 3.5 might just make the cut.  He was pre-rut, as his neck was not swelled up yet and there was still lots of fat on him.   Certainly, the 3 pointer that preceded him, by less 5 minutes, might fit the definition of a "scout".  Had I killed him, the big 8 might still be breathing.   
I can't help but wonder how many folks are missing chances at larger bucks, by shooting the first smaller one that walks into range, no matter what part of the season it might be.   My examples occurred pre or early rut.  Having seen this happen twice with my own eyes, you will have a hard time convincing me that older bucks do not use younger scouts.   They certainly do at my place.          
Have you ever passed on a smaller buck and then had a significantly larger (and at least a year older) buck, appear from the same spot less than 5 minutes later ?   If so, do you think there was any type of "relationship" between the pair ?    In both of my cases, I doubt that the smaller/younger bucks were aware of how they were being "used" by the larger/older bucks.   I have little doubt that the older bucks knew exactly what they were doing however.    

You may want to "Educate" yourself on the ways of the Whitetail. You can call them scouts or any other name but the fact is 9 times out of 10 you would see a mature deer be the last deer out regardless of what other deer they are with unless maybe a hot Doe is involved. It's called evolution before it's called a mature Buck knows he is with some stupid spike buck so he is going to send him out first. I know better than most how smart a deer can be but they sure ain't that smart.


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[wolc123]

26 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

You may want to "Educate" yourself on the ways of the Whitetail. You can call them scouts or any other name but the fact is 9 times out of 10 you would see a mature deer be the last deer out regardless of what other deer they are with unless maybe a hot Doe is involved. It's called evolution before it's called a mature Buck knows he is with some stupid spike buck so he is going to send him out first. I know better than most how smart a deer can be but they sure ain't that smart.


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I don't think he "sends him out first", but I do think that he deliberately follows him around to keep himself safe.  As I said above, I don't think the young ones have a clue what is going on, but the older ones certainly do.   I don't think we have any disagreement here.  

Do you think mature bucks might purposely stay close to but behind a younger buck ?  Why would that be ?   

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I don't think he "sends him out first", but I do think that he deliberately follows him around to keep himself safe.  As I said above, I don't think the young ones have a clue what is going on, but the older ones certainly do.   I don't think we have any disagreement here.  
Do you think mature bucks might purposely stay close to but behind a younger buck ?  Why would that be ?   

I don't know how many times do you see 2-3 yearlings out walking around at 3pm yet trail cam does not show any mature bucks show up till 2 hours after you left? Mature bucks make their living by knowing when it's safe to move. So by your theory if there was only 1 buck in the area and he was a mature buck and he had nobody to send out first... When would he come out?


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[wolc123]

19 hours ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

I don't know how many times do you see 2-3 yearlings out walking around at 3pm yet trail cam does not show any mature bucks show up till 2 hours after you left? Mature bucks make their living by knowing when it's safe to move. So by your theory if there was only 1 buck in the area and he was a mature buck and he had nobody to send out first... When would he come out?


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Like I said earlier, they don't "send them out".  In fact, I don't believe there is any communication between the young and old bucks.   The older bucks are simply using the younger ones as tools, to insure that the "coast is clear" before they enter a new area where they may encounter trouble.  Certainly, the big two-story blind at my place is such a threat.   The older buck this year gave me a stare down that was longer than any other has in my 38 hunting seasons, even after his "little-buddy" passed by unharmed.  It seemed like a half hour, but was probably closer to 15 minutes.  It was very obvious that he was suspicious of danger in the area.   I doubt he would have ventured past that blind in the daylight, had the little guy not made it safely past first (my answer to your question is "after dark").  This was also not the first time this happened to me in that very blind, although the previous "older buck" was just 2.5. 

I have to admit that I was fully expecting and ready for the 3.5  when he came out this year.  I would not have been, had the same thing not occurred, at the same spot, 3 years prior.  Killing that older buck was litterally "childs play" this year, because I was ready and expecting it.  I have not had an easier shot with my crossbow in the 6 seasons that I have had it.    I would have had a much tougher time killing the scout, who appeared totally unexpected, and caught me unready.  The bottom line here is, just like crow hunting: "don't shoot the scout".      

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Like I said earlier, they don't "send them out".  In fact, I don't believe there is any communication between the young and old bucks.   The older bucks are simply using the younger ones as tools, to insure that the "coast is clear" before they enter a new area where they may encounter trouble.  Certainly, the big two-story blind at my place is such a threat.   The older buck this year gave me a stare down that was longer than any other has in my 38 hunting seasons, even after his "little-buddy" passed by unharmed.  It seemed like a half hour, but was probably closer to 15 minutes.  It was very obvious that he was suspicious of danger in the area.   I doubt he would have ventured past that blind in the daylight, had the little guy not made it safely past first (my answer to your question is "after dark").  This was also not the first time this happened to me in that very blind, although the previous "older buck" was just 2.5. 
I have to admit that I was fully expecting and ready for the 3.5  when he came out this year.  I would not have been, had the same thing not occurred, at the same spot, 3 years prior.  Killing that older buck was litterally "childs play" this year, because I was ready and expecting it.  I have not had an easier shot with my crossbow in the 6 seasons that I have had it.    I would have had a much tougher time killing the scout, who appeared totally unexpected, and caught me unready.  The bottom line here is, just like crow hunting: "don't shoot the scout".      

So in one sentence you say you say the mature buck uses the young buck as a "Tool" to see if the coast is clear but you also say that if that mature buck was the only deer he would not come out until last...Dark. The mature buck still comes out last regardless if he has company or not. The way it's been for eons.


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[wolc123]

2 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

So in one sentence you say you say the mature buck uses the young buck as a "Tool" to see if the coast is clear but you also say that if that mature buck was the only deer he would not come out until last...Dark. The mature buck still comes out last regardless if he has company or not. The way it's been for eons.


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It sounds like you agree that the mature bucks might be using the younger ones as "tools", or "scouts".   I am just thankful that I stuck with my (at least three points on a side rule), during the first half of the season(s), to get a little more meat out of my buck tags.   Does are nearly impossible to get in my spots, so I need to make those two buck tags count for as much meat as possible.   

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It sounds like you agree that the mature bucks might be using the younger ones as "tools", or "scouts".   I am just thankful that I stuck with my (at least three points on a side rule), during the first half of the season(s), to get a little more meat out of my buck tags.   Does are nearly impossible to get in my spots, so I need to make those two buck tags count for as much meat as possible.   

Negative. Mature bucks will always be the last out closer to dark 9 times out of 10 regardless if he is alone or with 30 other animals. Have you never heard of staging areas? I get that you shoot a bunch of smaller deer and are fine with that but if you were to educate yourself with older animals you would learn so much more about the animal.


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[wolc123]

19 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

Negative. Mature bucks will always be the last out closer to dark 9 times out of 10 regardless if he is alone or with 30 other animals. Have you never heard of staging areas? I get that you shoot a bunch of smaller deer and are fine with that but if you were to educate yourself with older animals you would learn so much more about the animal.


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What about morning hunts ?   The 1.5 / 2.5 buck combo in 2016 was in the afternoon, but the 1.5 / 3.5 (mature by your definition) combo this year was in the morning (the little guy came out about a half hour after legal sunrise).   Do you think this 3.5 would have waited until dark to walk past that blind on November 2 if he did not have a "scout" to indicate that the coast was clear ? 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

What about morning hunts ?   The 1.5 / 2.5 buck combo in 2016 was in the afternoon, but the 1.5 / 3.5 (mature by your definition) combo this year was in the morning (the little guy came out about a half hour after legal sunrise).   Do you think this 3.5 would have waited until dark to walk past that blind on November 2 if he did not have a "scout" to indicate that the coast was clear ? 
 

No he was just later in the morning getting back to his bedding area or where he was headed from spending the night out looking to get his dick wet. 31/2 is not really a mature deer in most states but with a lot of you brown it's down fellas they are in Ny state. Educate yourself man. You shot so many button bucks because they are the dumbest deer in the woods and walk right out to you. You have shot very few mature bucks because they are a total different animal in most cases.


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[moog5050]

Wolc

do a poll.  I suspect most people will agree that most if not all 3.5 or older bucks they killed were either solo or chasing a doe.  I know that’s the case for me.   The exception would be an early or late season buck that was in a bachelor group and yes the older tend to be the last to show.  Doesn’t make the younger ones scouts.  The older bucks are more cautious.  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Wolc
do a poll.  I suspect most people will agree that most if not all 3.5 or older bucks they killed were either solo or chasing a doe.  I know that’s the case for me.   The exception would be an early or late season buck that was in a bachelor group and yes the older tend to be the last to show.  Doesn’t make the younger ones scouts.  The older bucks are more cautious.  

Careful Man. I broke my self imposed rule I made a couple months ago that I would no longer Engage in stupidity with others on this site and try to enjoy the site more. I really didn't think that one was so far lost. Lol. I'm Out!


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[wolc123]

10 hours ago, Four Season Whitetail's said:

No he was just later in the morning getting back to his bedding area or where he was headed from spending the night out looking to get his dick wet. 31/2 is not really a mature deer in most states but with a lot of you brown it's down fellas they are in Ny state. Educate yourself man. You shot so many button bucks because they are the dumbest deer in the woods and walk right out to you. You have shot very few mature bucks because they are a total different animal in most cases.


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I don't think 12 - 20 is so many when it comes to button bucks.  Hopefully another one will hit the freezer this season.  I am making some good headway on the "mature" bucks also, with one on each of the last three seasons.   Passing of the scouts has played a key role in that.

 

10 hours ago, moog5050 said:

Wolc

do a poll.  I suspect most people will agree that most if not all 3.5 or older bucks they killed were either solo or chasing a doe.  I know that’s the case for me.   The exception would be an early or late season buck that was in a bachelor group and yes the older tend to be the last to show.  Doesn’t make the younger ones scouts.  The older bucks are more cautious.  

I will start with you.  Have any of them that you have taken (lets include 2.5's in there also since I know you have taken a few of those the last few years), showed up less than 5 minutes after a 1.5 came from the same spot ?   If others want to "chime in" on the poll, have at it.   I am going to go out shortly and try for my second antlered buck this year, or a doe / button buck or three,  or at the very least, a tree rat or two.  

My chances of second 3.5 plus are slim for the remainder of this year, because I have just decided to go full "brown-down" from here on out.  It would be selfish of me to hold out for a big one, considering all of the carnage that I have heard of lately with automobile hits.   That includes (4) from the dozen or so folks who I was playing cards with last night.    Us hunters are the primary means of limiting such destruction.  The "passing of young bucks" and eating tags does nothing to help that situation.   It seems to be antlered bucks that are involved in the majority of those hits.   In future seasons, I will continue to pass the young ones in the early season, until my meat supply is secure, but holding out for a trophy now ain't going to happen.       

Edited December 7, 2019 by wolc123