Just Curious-When was the last time anyone saw a grouse in Dutchess County?

[13BVET]

I know that I haven't seen one in 12 years now. I've talked to DEC about it, but, all I get is the old "Grouse Hunter's Log" bs. I don't need a log to figure out that grouse are effectively non-existent down here. A better question, is what, if anything, would the DEC do about it? Well, I think the answer is pretty obvious, since we live in the lower southern tier-NOTHING!

[13BVET]

Well, I guess I pretty much answered my own question!

[Deerguy]

I have never seen a grouse in Dutchess and I do alot of small game hunting.

[13BVET]

I have never seen a grouse in Dutchess and I do alot of small game hunting.

I understand that. Ironically, though, all of about 15 years ago (maybe a little longer), there were actually healthy numbers of grouse in Dutchess. I used to see them on Brockway Road in Fishkill, Ridgefield Farms in Fishkill, and many other places. It's a shame they've disappeared from this area.

[Doc]

Over here in WNY, I have regularly been hearing them drumming, but have not seen one in a while. One thing I did see that has always been a bit rare around here was a woodcock a few months ago. I'm not sure what is happening to our game birds. As far as I know, nobody hunts them here anymore, so I can't imagine what's going on. The only thing that I can imagine is the increase in hawks. I know they are raising hell with the rabbit population. There's no control on them so they are simply over-populating the place. Also, the coyotes and fox population has been up for quite a while.

[SteveMcD]

I live in Staatsburg, Dutchess County. I use to find Grouse out Tivoli Bays 15-20 years ago. I use to train my Setters there. Was good then. Haven't seen a Grouse in about 15 years here either. Although, they tell me there are good numbers in the Stissing Mountain area of Hicks Hill Rd. It is a shame, and it is development. 20 years ago, my gun club.. you coud literally hunt from Rt 9 to the Taconic and never worry about houses or posted land. That has all changed. In the 1940's Dutchess County was famous for it's upland game, even books and magazine stories were written about it. Like in other posts - Dutchess Deer have been in steady decline as well.

[tj1187]

I think the cat population [as in house cat] might have something to do with it also. You dont see as many birds at the bird feeder as you you once did.

[Dinsdale]

I live in Staatsburg, Dutchess County. I use to find Grouse out Tivoli Bays 15-20 years ago. I use to train my Setters there. Was good then. Haven't seen a Grouse in about 15 years here either. Although, they tell me there are good numbers in the Stissing Mountain area of Hicks Hill Rd. It is a shame, and it is development. 20 years ago, my gun club.. you coud literally hunt from Rt 9 to the Taconic and never worry about houses or posted land. That has all changed. In the 1940's Dutchess County was famous for it's upland game, even books and magazine stories were written about it. Like in other posts - Dutchess Deer have been in steady decline as well.

There's some in the Stissing area still...

Used to be some on and near by Lafayetteville too; but same as the above not since the mid- late 90's although once in awhile I'll hear some drumming in nearby areas; but its just occasional.

[13BVET]

I live in Staatsburg, Dutchess County. I use to find Grouse out Tivoli Bays 15-20 years ago. I use to train my Setters there. Was good then. Haven't seen a Grouse in about 15 years here either. Although, they tell me there are good numbers in the Stissing Mountain area of Hicks Hill Rd. It is a shame, and it is development. 20 years ago, my gun club.. you coud literally hunt from Rt 9 to the Taconic and never worry about houses or posted land. That has all changed. In the 1940's Dutchess County was famous for it's upland game, even books and magazine stories were written about it. Like in other posts - Dutchess Deer have been in steady decline as well.

I have to agree. There's no question that excessive development has decimated the grouse population. Ever since they put the Gap, and the out of control housing on Merritt Blvd., it has put a beating on certain species-including rabbits.

[Jennifer]

Grouse populations are really complicated in all the variables that effect their size. Even where their habitat is prime and they are not over hunted (by people or predators), their population is highly cyclic. The two biggest factors that 'we' know of (again assuming good habitat) are winter conditions and the cycle of the Aspen tree. Grouse often rely heavily on aspen buds and there are some years that the aspen produces a toxic coating to the buds (thought to ward off pests). During those years grouse do not fare well.

Grouse also tend to thrive when winters are cold and snowy, contrary to one might think.

The truth is, we are only just scratching the surface and biologists aren't really sure what triggers the cycles and why the population fluctuates so much.

Here's a good article that explains some of the grouse cycle:

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/sepoct10/grouse_cycle.html

[13BVET]

Grouse populations are really complicated in all the variables that effect their size. Even where their habitat is prime and they are not over hunted (by people or predators), their population is highly cyclic. The two biggest factors that 'we' know of (again assuming good habitat) are winter conditions and the cycle of the Aspen tree. Grouse often rely heavily on aspen buds and there are some years that the aspen produces a toxic coating to the buds (thought to ward off pests). During those years grouse do not fare well.

Grouse also tend to thrive when winters are cold and snowy, contrary to one might think.

The truth is, we are only just scratching the surface and biologists aren't really sure what triggers the cycles and why the population fluctuates so much.

Here's a good article that explains some of the grouse cycle:

http://www.dnr.state...ouse_cycle.html

There's no question that grouse are cyclic, but, when you don't see at least one in around 15 years, there's something wrong. Before development got out of control, grouse were fairly easy to find-even during their down cycles. Today, you will find literally no grouse in areas that were productive in the past. Their habitat has been decimated by development.

[Lever action]

We still have some around here but nothing like say 30yrs ago.I did find a nest with 10 eggs in it this Spring while cutting firewood.

I read an article in NY Conservationist last yr on the ruffed grouse.It said that the most common predator of the grouse is hawks.I believe it because I see hawks all the time while hunting.Like Doc said there is no control on these predators.

I have pheasants released on our property every yr and the hawks raise heck with them.They are relentless, I'll be bow hunting or gun hunting and watch them flying over our cornfield constantly looking for an unweary pheasant.Sometimes I feel like all I'm doing is feeding the hawks, but a few pheasants do survive.I don't hunt the pheasants I just love to have them around.

[Elmo]

I've never seen a grouse in my life.

[max3]

Turkeys will kill baby grouse also.

[Jennifer]

13BVET, I understand what you mean. I'm not familiar with your part of the state so I apologize-- it's true that not seeing any is different than them having a cyclic population.

max3, isn't that funny? Turkeys will eat anything rich in protein that they can fit down the gullet so to speak, and will readily take frogs, small mammals and if they are easy, tiny baby birds too. Turkey predation of grouse is probably not a very significant impact on grouse populations, though, at least compared to other predators. Grouse are tasty, and everything knows it.

[bkln]

I see them every year, my buddy from the hunting club raises them :-)

[Guides ForHire]

loss of habitat,

maturing habitat

and what do the states do?? increase the predators

oh yippie we released lynx, oh yippie we have more marten, fisher, maybe lions coming back, hopefully wolves back soon, and we fully protect hawks owls etc, so increase the preds and allow habitat to go past ideal stages , hineysuckle filling in everywhere, combine that with loss of land and huh...not seeing the game we used to..hmmm.

they do nothing for habitat, drop everything to increase preds, do nothing for land use expansion, and they are amazed hunter numbers drop. go figure.

its a shame.

[GrouseHunter]

You know out in Montana and the Dakotas, Kansas they do all kinds of stuff to protect and promote upland bird hunting and they get millions in cash from all the in and out of state hunters. An out of state license is usually more the $100 and all the hotel, food etc money yet these boobs in NY let a great resourse like that go down the drain. It is amazing how little we get for all the taxes and fees we pay. Best bird hunting I ever did was Montana and the people and the goverment out there couldnt have been more helpful. I call the DEC a few times looking for help and advice in NY for grouse and I have been waiting over a year for my call back.

[Jennifer]

Pheasant Run, I hear that. But I think the major differences between states that have well managed and good upland bird hunting and those that don't (like NY) is to look at where/who most of the voting, tax-paying population is. Like it's any news to us, but the vast majority of NY residents are either indifferent to or even against hunting.

[GrouseHunter]

I agree and I think the DEC is only around to collect fees and give out fines however I just cant see why they dont see how much money could be made off a well managed wildlife population. I am sure the antis have a lot to do with it but I am also convinced the typical NY attitude is let someone else do the work and they will come in later and tax all the profit out of it.

[Red]

i would say i see a couple each time im out in franklinville in the southerntier. theres nothing like that soun of their wings drumming its a very cool sound.

[Jennifer]

I agree and I think the DEC is only around to collect fees and give out fines however I just cant see why they dont see how much money could be made off a well managed wildlife population. I am sure the antis have a lot to do with it but I am also convinced the typical NY attitude is let someone else do the work and they will come in later and tax all the profit out of it.

I wish it was that cut and dry, but the DEC folks are really decent people, at least here in region 9, I used to work with them. They do care, but NY is cutting their jobs left and right, and the budget is a mess. The DEC has much much less manpower to do work on projects like this, much less funding to pay for them, and I am sad to say that interest is probably at an all time low. I don't think you need to convince the DEC game and wildlife guys that we need to work on habitat and studies in NY in addition to the moneyflow a good gamebird population might bring-- we need to convince the people that write the budget for the DEC.

Not trying to be argumentive, just trying to share the other side of the coin. Trust me, I love upland birds and would love it just as much as you if we could see an increase.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Jennifer

[GrouseHunter]

No argument here I am sure they are nice and care I do think the problem is at the top in that agency. I just think, and I am no expert by any means, that a good logging program of all state land could create jobs, make the state some money and help habitat a win for everyone but it is not being done.

We hunted this past weekend on state land and had a nice time put some miles on us and many more on the dog but did not see a bird I am sorry to say. I may try someplace differedt this coming weekend if I can and we dont get snowed out. Any sugestions?

[Woodcock]

I live in Putnam County, and grouse, while still around are very limited to certain locations. I also still see a few in parts of Dutchess County. In Putnam, they were fairly common when I started hunting in 1982 and their numbers have dropped since then. I shot my last grouse here in 1999. In Dutchess County, I have also seen this same pattern. It is very possible to find them if you really work hard but I wouldn't really call it a grouse hunt..... My guess is that they could return with proper land management and as some areas see change from storm damage, etc. The biggest concern for the future would be that there are enough grouse around to repopulate. As one friend told me, a very good grouse hunter btw..... you need quantity of habitat as much as quality....... Deer also destroy the understory of our forests and this can also be a possible negative to grouse habitat...... I shot my last Putnam County grouse on October 13, 1999 at Nimham Mountain MUA; I was hunting with my last Brittany Kelly...a beautiful point, flush and a shot..... it was her last bird before she became ill..... a wonderful companion and a great memory!!

Edited May 4, 2012 by Woodcock