Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[TheHunter]

... So as long as you keep your QDM lobbyists happy and strong, there is not likely going to be any movement to rescind AR in areas where it is currently. You can relax ..... ok?

Nah, I won't relax. There are far to many people that are trying to speak for WMU's they are hours from with zero hunting experiance in.  You are right, AR is not going away, majority supports it and it works.

[Larry]

>  No one wants to take your AR zone away. Wow do you think there are people out there that feel the same as you when AR’s were put in place or think there WMU may go to AR’s. Guys like you with the screw you attitude I got mine and I don’t care about yours would be doing us all a favor by going to PETA. 

[Fairgame]

I like the fact that he is speaking up for something that has been doing what it was put in place to do and that is give more bucks the opportunity to reach 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 years old in an area that most bucks were never making it to 2 1/2.  Shooting the first buck that walked by reguardless of size was not letting these bucks age at all in an area that has a high hunter number.

Before it all happened I probably would have to wait ten years before you would see a 2 1/2 year old buck forget about harvesting one.  It wasnt even a possibility.  You could have trail cameras out and never see any older bucks on it. Now it has changed.  Reguardless if people that are not in these areas want to believe it or not, it works for the people that have it and have seen a difference.

Your whole PETA comment he will probably tell you to shove it.  And before you say it to me SHOVE IT.

[TheHunter]

>  No one wants to take your AR zone away. Wow do you think there are people out there that feel the same as you when AR’s were put in place or think there WMU may go to AR’s. Guys like you with the screw you attitude I got mine and I don’t care about yours would be doing us all a favor by going to PETA. 

Yes, there are plenty of people that feel the same way as I do.  Majority actually, especially in our WMU's with AR. What does PETA have to do with this? I won't even comment on that.

Why is everyone so worried about a first time hunter getting a buck? Since when is going out hunting guarantee you a buck? I went 3+ years before harvesting my first buck, I had to hunt, put in the time, and I bagged a nice older 7 pointer.  I and others want to have a more mature herd, bigger bucks, and a opportunity to harvest larger racked deer. And AR is giving us the opportunity to do that.  QDM / AR on a small scale on your own property does not work, unless you have 1500 acres.  This form of AR in place now might not be perfect, however it works.  There are more bucks now running around with AR that are legal to take then before AR in my area. So those who hunt, first timers or not, have a better opportunity.  There are clear biological reasons for AR despite what the DEC states, and the major goal of AR was to protect a majority of the 1.5's which it does.  In PA, 1/4 of the bucks that reach 2.5 are now surviving to older ages.  Why? Older, smarter, more mature. 

[adk3006]

QUOTE FROM THE HUNTER:

"Why is everyone so worried about a first time hunter getting a buck? Since when is going out hunting guarantee you a buck? I went 3+ years before harvesting my first buck, I had to hunt, put in the time, and I bagged a nice older 7 pointer."

The Hunter:  Why are you and others in favor of AR so worried about shooting deer with big head gear?  I agree that shooting a nice rack buck is exciting where I hunt because they are few and far between but if AR's work like some of you people say they work and big bucks are running everywhere........how exciting is shooting a rack buck if you shoot one every hunting season? 

The Hunter, you say it took you 3+ years to havest your first buck, an older 7pt......hmmmm, I would assume this was before AR's??  How could you have possibly harvested an OLDER 7pt before AR's were implemented?

For all you hunters in favor of AR's, you are entitled to your opinion but don't critize other hunters because they don't feel the same about AR's.     

[Doewhacker]

I love the assumption from the AR guys that  if you don't support them you are a "if its brown its down guy", just perfect.

Remeber every one 330 people who hunt in the heavily hunted WMU's support AR's and that is the "majority"...lol

[Doewhacker]

"There are clear biological reasons for AR despite what the DEC states,"

Like what? a slightly bigger rack to see? That is no biological advantage and does zero for the herd.

[woodsdweller]

i guess i cant understand what the craze about huge antlers is. is it bragging rights, the need to be noticed. look at me i am a HORN HUNTER. well then hunt hard and be happy harvesting that mature buck every 4 or 5 years. we that hunt for the meat and excitment, time spent w/family and friends are happy harvesting what we want. i hunt here in 4R and 4x (no dmps due to low deer numbers) so the thought of shooting a doe for meat is a no-no even if they give out dmps as a family rule. we are happy harvesting any buck w 3". I dont need some 5.5 year old rutted up buck to put in the freezer. its like beauty fellas it in the eye of the beholder. If you want to pratice AR as a personal preferance that i support your desires, but i hate to see this restriction go state wide. again i spend a lot of hard earned money to pay to enjoy hunting but i enjoy the benifits from it as well.

[TheHunter]

The Hunter:  Why are you and others in favor of AR so worried about shooting deer with big head gear?  I agree that shooting a nice rack buck is exciting where I hunt because they are few and far between but if AR's work like some of you people say they work and big bucks are running everywhere........how exciting is shooting a rack buck if you shoot one every hunting season? 

Who said anyone is shooting one every season.  Yes, a racked buck is nice, and having AR gives you a better chance at one down the road as the bucks mature.

  The Hunter, you say it took you 3+ years to havest your first buck, an older 7pt......hmmmm, I would assume this was before AR's??  How could you have possibly harvested an OLDER 7pt before AR's were implemented?

You assumed correct, this was over 15 years ago, well before AR.  There older deer, I never said there was zero older deer.

For all you hunters in favor of AR's, you are entitled to your opinion but don't critize other hunters because they don't feel the same about AR's.   

Right, the same goes for you guys that feel the need voice your opinion with zero hunting experiance in a WMU with AR.  As well as those who bash people that want AR.  Its a two way street.

"There are clear biological reasons for AR despite what the DEC states,"

Like what? a slightly bigger rack to see? That is no biological advantage and does zero for the herd.

There are plenty of biological advantages to AR.

http://www.hvqdma.com/biological-needs-for-antler-restriction/

http://www.education.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=space&name=Dir&id=cached&psname=Dir&psid=1&in_hi_userid=2&cached=true&control=DirRepost&rangeFrom=54&rangeTo=73&subfolderID=107594&DirMode=1#

Prior to APRs about 80 percent of bucks (a majority of which were yearlings) were harvested by hunters each year. This led to buck survival rates of less than 20 percent. Protecting most yearling bucks would increase buck survival thereby increasing adult bucks in the population, the goal of APRs.

Based on survival rates of hundreds of radio-collared bucks, yearling buck survival increased from less than 20 percent to 64 percent after APRs. Adult buck survival increased as well to 36 percent.

I love the assumption from the AR guys that  if you don't support them you are a "if its brown its down guy", just perfect.

Remeber every one 330 people who hunt in the heavily hunted WMU's support AR's and that is the "majority"...lol

• 
   
• WMUs 3C and 3J: 60% of respondents said the program should continue, 29% said it should not continue, 11% had no opinion.
   
• WMUs 3H and 3K: 77% of respondents said the program should continue, 14% said it should not continue, 9% had no opinion.
  

  Majority

[Doewhacker]

Thehunter, don't argue with me look up the DEC biologist and teach them, obviously you know more than them on the subject.. man who hired them biologist any way?

[Larry]

that's based on a survey with a less than 20% return rate that’s outstanding proof for AR support. 

[TheHunter]

that's based on a survey with a less than 20% return rate that’s outstanding proof for AR support.

Incorrect, the response rates were 62%  for WMUs 3C-3J and 42% for WMUs 3H-3K.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You guys are going to hear me beat the same drum I always do....the difference between the AR folk and the rest of us is simple. We are happy with what we have and do not choose to IMPOSE our views on others. THEY, however are trying to impose their views on other hunters and diminish their hunting experience.

If you want to practice it...do it...don't tell others how to hunt.

and just to clarify one point. There is NO proof that increasing the number of bucks in a heard is biologically better for the herd. It may be better for the HORN HUNTER but does nothing for the herd. In fact there is data that suggests increased buck numbers may diminish the health of the herd. survival of the fittest and you don't need a 4-1 ratio to keep the doe population breed.

my 2 cents

[steve863]

You guys are going to hear me beat the same drum I always do....the difference between the AR folk and the rest of us is simple. We are happy with what we have and do not choose to IMPOSE our views on others. THEY, however are trying to impose their views on other hunters and diminish their hunting experience.

If you want to practice it...do it...don't tell others how to hunt.

and just to clarify one point. There is NO proof that increasing the number of bucks in a heard is biologically better for the herd. It may be better for the HORN HUNTER but does nothing for the herd. In fact there is data that suggests increased buck numbers may diminish the health of the herd. survival of the fittest and you don't need a 4-1 ratio to keep the doe population breed.

my 2 cents

Everything stated above is 100% correct and I agree with it completely.

[TheHunter]

I do not agree, and its not 100% correct.  Majority in my AR WMU want AR to stay. 

[adk3006]

I do not agree, and its not 100% correct.  Majority in my AR WMU want AR to stay.

Do you have proof that the majority in your WMU is in favor of AR or is this just your opininon?  Unless a survey has been conducted in your WMU that includes every hunter in your WMU I think this is more opinion than fact.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

So what you are saying is...majority rules. You are ok with imposing you will on others as long as the majority of the group feel that way?

I understand the desire to take a great buck but let me ask you this. How will you feel on that day when you find something you enjoy, threatened and since the majority do no agree with you will you go quietly along with them?

[TheHunter]

I do not agree, and its not 100% correct.  Majority in my AR WMU want AR to stay.

Do you have proof that the majority in your WMU is in favor of AR or is this just your opininon?  Unless a survey has been conducted in your WMU that includes every hunter in your WMU I think this is more opinion than fact.

77% of 3H-3K hunters believe AR should continue - DEC Survey.

[Doewhacker]

The survey that The hunter loves so much counted on 327 people's opinions out of the thousands that hunt in those wmu. 60% equals 169 hunters from 3J+C and 77% is 158 hunters from 3H+K. Not exactly a large base considering how many hunt in those areas. It is also important to note that not every one surveyed hunted in those units. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

no....77% of those polled. If you really want to do this then have  each license holder(when they buy their license) fill out a vote. Polls are not a fact and numbers can be manipulated.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I agree Doe...I could set up at a trail head to a plot of state land and canvas that many...WTH...those numbers are a drop in the bucket compared to those that are in those areas.

[TheHunter]

So what you are saying is...majority rules. You are ok with imposing you will on others as long as the majority of the group feel that way?

What I am saying is Majorty want AR to continue, and I am one of them that would like to see it continue because I see the results.

I understand the desire to take a great buck but let me ask you this. How will you feel on that day when you find something you enjoy, threatened and since the majority do no agree with you will you go quietly along with them?

No, however if it was the other way around, and I was not in a AR WMU and I thought that my WMU would benefit from AR then I would be voicing my opionion as well.  I'm not imposing it on other WMU's because I can not speak for them.  There are odviously WMU's that do not need the support of AR, where pressure is lower, where bucks are more mature and live to an older age.

Why is allowing a 1.5 to survive such a horrible thing?  It's like the end of the world for you guys. 

QDM / AR on a small scale on your own property does not work unless you have thousand acres at your disposal. 

Look at DMP's, they issue them based on the need for herd thinning.  Its the same thing with AR, your trying allow the bucks in this case to mature and survive another year where they can get smarter, bigger, and help provide a better age structure to the herd.

As far as dimishing hunter success rates, look at PA, they tracked hunter success rates over the last 3 decades, and it has shown little to zero change in the percentage of successful hunters. Today, PA hunters are as successful harvesting a buck under AR as their predecessors were 20 years ago....

[steve863]

Whether or not the folks in your WMU are in overwhelming support of AR's, it doesn't have anything to do with Culver's statement being wrong.  He obviously knows what hunting is all about, and the rest of you still need to learn.  We all know that what the majority may think is far from always being correct.  AR's may just be another example of this.

[Doewhacker]

yea roughly 566,000 hunters in the state and we swear the 327 responses (or .0005% of hunters) to a survey are all we need to go on. Let me go a little further, in 3J+C that is .00029% of total hunters and in 3H+k thats .00027% of total hunters.

A state with over 19 million residents and 327 is the best they can do.

[Doewhacker]

Whats even more interesting are the numbers of 60% and 77% supporting...77% sounds like more guys than 60% right?

77% represents 158 guys and 60%=169