Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[burmjohn]

Yes, in your WMU its a great VOLUNTARY thing to do. 

[Tony Sorrento]

I would bet if there was a vote, majority would go for it .... so I say let the democratic process prevail ..... at least for a test period of ...let's say .... 5 years?  :-\

I would guess that those that voted nay, after 5 years most would want them kept for another 5 .....

[Caveman]

I'm not sure that mindset would catch on Tony.  Especially for those like myself who hunt state land.  I see 8 points that are out of my comfortable range with a bow and I wish I could get another chance.  But if a 4 point walks by in range later that day I still take him because every day more people fill tags on the land I'm hunting and my chances of seeing that 8 point again get that much slimmer.

[TheHunter]

I would bet if there was a vote, majority would go for it .... so I say let the democratic process prevail ..... at least for a test period of ...let's say .... 5 years?  :-\

I would guess that those that voted nay, after 5 years most would want them kept for another 5 .....

Those who have it love it, those who don't seem to be afraid of it because they might have "tag soup".  It's a shame, because in the small test area where it is now, its been nothing but positive.  This comes from first hand experience as well as friends and family.

[furman_ny]

Tony, your theory is great on shooting doe's instead of smaller bucks---- until you are in a WMU that is not giving many permits, where I am at only half the applicants will get ONE, much less 3 or 4. As far as the 40% of 6 pt. or more yearlings surviving, it looks like everyone who supports ARs thinks EVERY 1 1/2 year old buck gets shot, far from it. For sure they make up the majority of the kill each year, mostly beacuse there is many more of them, but also because, I think all would agree, every year they get older they get smarter and tougher to hunt. If the ARs are put in place, the buck take will surely drop like a stone, which is what supporters of it want leaving more bucks for next year. Next year comes around and  most of that age class will make it cause they have wised up a bit, and most of the new crop of 1 1/2 yr. olds will be protected again, leaving too many bucks in a given area that probably has too many doe and fawn to begin with, sure they will survive barring a real bad winter, but they will not be as healthy as they could be, thus not growing as good of racks or body size as they could. There is only so much food to go around, whether there is 10 deer or 100. I am not a supporter because of that one reason, having more deer does NOT mean having better deer, I for one see no point in passing a spike or 4 pt., only to shoot him the next season as a thin racked 7 or 8 pt. Only way I get on board is if the overall number of deer is GREATLY reduced, mostly through doe harvest, and that will never happen, first off because the dec will never allow it to, it would result in less licenses being bought, but they wont have to cause many, many hunters refuse to take a doe. All that said, nothings going to change, some people will take young bucks, a few will get older ones, and many will get none. A good buddy of mine hunts Saskatchewan most every year, most places there have 2 or 3 deer per sq. mile, what do ya think that number is in most parts of this state? a touch higher I would venture to guess, they get to be twice the size of deer here with truly trophy sized racks, but fact is many guys dont want to have to HUNT, they want to see 20 every time they go out, which is fine, but in my opinion you cant have big herds of doe and large numbers of big bucks in the same area, and most people will pick seeing alot of deer over having the remote chance of seeing one really large one.

[TheHunter]

What is interesting is that there seemed to be a lot more support for them on the old forum.  Some of the more vocal people either haven't found this site yet, or haven't wanted to get into the discussion here.  Maybe that PA report is keeping them quiet now?  LOL.

First hand experience is what matters, everyone in an AR WMU that I know personally, including me has had positive results. 

[TheHunter]

Next year comes around and  most of that age class will make it cause they have wised up a bit, and most of the new crop of 1 1/2 yr. olds will be protected again, leaving too many bucks in a given area that probably has too many doe and fawn to begin with, sure they will survive barring a real bad winter, but they will not be as healthy as they could be, thus not growing as good of racks or body size as they could. There is only so much food to go around, whether there is 10 deer or 100. I am not a supporter because of that one reason, having more deer does NOT mean having better deer, I for one see no point in passing a spike or 4 pt., only to shoot him the next season as a thin racked 7 or 8 pt.

LOL Letting a few yearling bucks walk its going to make the herd starve, thats a new one. The hole point of AR is so that it gives those 1.5's the chance to get older, which you stated in your post.  So... AR is working.

[Buckstopshere]

"First hand experience is what matters, everyone in an AR WMU that I know personally, including me has had positive results."

What's positive results? There are thousands of organized deer hunters in Pa. who have had to suffer..."first hand experience"... under ARs for eight years as I have, and they are all not happy campers. Since I hunt there and talk to Pa. deer hunters all the time, they do not spend much time talking about "positive results" because there are so darn few.     

[furman_ny]

TheHunter, be more specific on these results if you would. You are seeing more bucks? same amount but a bit larger bucks? did everyone you know and hear of take one, or see multiple MATURE bucks?? Or is there just more 90 inch two year olds being shot?

[furman_ny]

You and everyone else in the state HAS to let them walk, that will be more than just a few extra deer living,a couple of extra 10 thousand more like it.

[TheHunter]

TheHunter, be more specific on these results if you would. You are seeing more bucks? same amount but a bit larger bucks? did everyone you know and hear of take one, or see multiple MATURE bucks?? Or is there just more 90 inch two year olds being shot?

More bucks, larger bucks.  Did everyone take one? No.... Who gets a buck every year. I don't. 

Is not shooting a spike hurting your hunting season?

[TheHunter]

You and everyone else in the state HAS to let them walk, that will be more than just a few extra deer living,a couple of extra 10 thousand more like it.

Umm, No.  Its in a specific WMU Now.  Even state wide, its not going to have some crazy impact to hurt an entire herd.  An extra 10k or 20k of bucks is not going to effect an entire state one bit.

[burmjohn]

You and everyone else in the state HAS to let them walk, that will be more than just a few extra deer living,a couple of extra 10 thousand more like it.

Umm, No.  Its in a specific WMU Now.  Even state wide, its not going to have some crazy impact to hurt an entire herd.  An extra 10k or 20k of bucks is not going to effect an entire state one bit.

I'd have to agree, whats 10k extra deer going to do when they give that out x3 in DMP's in some WMU's.

[furman_ny]

Not hurting mine at all, I pass many every season. But it may well ruin many younger hunters season, or the guy who only has a day or two to hunt. You wanna be the one to tell a 16 year old kid who only has state land to hunt he cant shoot his first buck, which in his mind IS a trophy, because the guy who owns the adjacent property will feel better about himself shooting it the next season when its STILL an immature deer? Id rather give the kid a chance myself.

[Larry]

AR’s in this state are a DEAD issue you would more likely see the AR’s we have go away before you see any new ones. One more thing those who claim they let small bucks walk most of you don’t. You can see it in the buck take the percentage of 1 ½ year old in the take has stay almost the same for the last 20 years there doesn’t  seem to be a lot of support for AR’s if there were you would see a reduction in the buck take coming out of the 1 ½ year olds in the take.   

[Fairgame]

Anyone under the age of 17 is allowed to shoot any size buck they please.  It is not restricting young hunters.  Thats the way it has been in the AR zones.

[furman_ny]

Burm, kinda the point Im getting at,  they give out permits and everyone goes nuts thinking there will be no deer left. when in actuality less than half get used. Lets be real here, ARs are being pushed because guys want to shoot a big buck, which is fine by me as that is what Im after too, but if you dont keep the number of deer down at the level where the available food allows them to reach potential, its useless in my mind. Many peoples idea of deer sizes differ, its all or nothing with me, if you let em go as 1 1/2 yr.olds, you should let em go as 2 and 3 yr. olds too, you get the state to regulate that and cut the doe herd by half, and Ill jump on board with ya. Until then, you might as well let em harvest what they want to.

[burmjohn]

AR’s in this state are a DEAD issue you would more likely see the AR’s we have go away before you see any new ones. One more thing those who claim they let small bucks walk most of you don’t. You can see it in the buck take the percentage of 1 ½ year old in the take has stay almost the same for the last 20 years there doesn’t  seem to be a lot of support for AR’s if there were you would see a reduction in the buck take coming out of the 1 ½ year olds in the take.   

Its not dead in my mind, family's mind, or any hunter I know personally.  I bet as stated by Tony if a statewide poll was taken, there would be support. Here is a stat from DEC directly:

[burmjohn]

Burm, kinda the point Im getting at,  they give out permits and everyone goes nuts thinking there will be no deer left. when in actuality less than half get used. Lets be real here, ARs are being pushed because guys want to shoot a big buck, which is fine by me as that is what Im after too, but if you dont keep the number of deer down at the level where the available food allows them to reach potential, its useless in my mind. Many peoples idea of deer sizes differ, its all or nothing with me, if you let em go as 1 1/2 yr.olds, you should let em go as 2 and 3 yr. olds too, you get the state to regulate that and cut the doe herd by half, and Ill jump on board with ya. Until then, you might as well let em harvest what they want to.

But again, how is one or two extra yearlings per square mile going to effect the herd? Its not, even at two or three extra, is that really going to soak up all that extra food where it would prevent another doe / buck to achieve pull potential?  There are fields, food plots, and other sources of food around me.  Even if there were no plots, I'm sure there is enough to support those additional few deer per sqr mile.  Sure I'm all for letting them go to 2 and 3, but how can the state enforce that realistically?  They can't, so this is the best alternative right now, allow those 1.5's to grow, get smarter, get bigger.  It's not hurting anything, at least give it a go for a few years.  From Pine bush where I hunted 15 years and now my current area Cochection, I've herd nothing but positive results.  I have no sympathy for weekend hunters that can't get in the woods enough to get a buck, why? because I am one of them.  I work to much, don't have a lot of time off, I make sure I spend a few vac days for hunting season.  I'm not there every weekend as I'd like.  But I much rather see some more mature deer in my area, take a doe here and there to fulfill my meat "wants" and see a more mature buck the following season for me and my fam.  I can care less what I get, I don't hunt for the meat or for the rack.  I hunt for the fun, the stories, the time with family and just to spend time outdoors.  The bigger bucks, racks and maturity are a plus and one I am willing to wait and sacrifice for.

[furman_ny]

Hunter,  your right letting most yearling bucks walk wont starve the whole herd, but unless you take more doe's, or alot more old bucks, to make up for the extra deer, that years fawns will be the ones to pay for it, many of them being males.I see nothing lol about that.

[Fairgame]

Furman,  How do the fawns pay for it?  Please explain.

[TheHunter]

Hunter,  your right letting most yearling bucks walk wont starve the whole herd, but unless you take more doe's, or alot more old bucks, to make up for the extra deer, that years fawns will be the ones to pay for it, many of them being males.I see nothing lol about that.

It is LOL because your puling crap out of your a$$.  10k deer statewide will not effect ANYTHING.

[furman_ny]

Burm, I too hunt for the fun and time outdoors, I am on the other end of the spectrum from you on the time, I am out there 3 out of every 4 days of the whole season, bow all the way through muzzle. Maybe there are more deer here than in many WMUs of the state, we have huge numbers of small, private parcels of land, most of which are iowned by people who dont live here, most all get hunted first weekend and thats it, allowing the vast majority of deer a free pass 95% if the season. Alot of these fellows will NOT shoot a doe, which obviously results in tons of fawns each year. Im just thinking that not allowing this type of hunter to take a smaller buck will result in most taking NO deer EVERY year, and that cant be good, somethings gotta give.

[burmjohn]

That is why there are DMP's right? That's why the DEC changes the # of DMP's almost every year by WMU to control the herd.

[furman_ny]

Fairgame, biggest and strongest survive, being half the size they are the ones who get the short end of available food, especially in tough winters with deep snow for any length of time.

Hunter, first off, I said a couple 10k, which in reality it would probably take closer to 30k of a decline in buck kill; now you get 10% statewide cut in DMP, which would add who knows how many 10s of thousands of doe to have twins next spring, most bred by crappy gened 1 1/2 yr.olds. Maybe we get bad weather again the first weekend of gun when most deer are taken, and the doe take on available permits goes down too, pretty soon its gonna get crowded. I hunt with agroup during gun season, and we have weighed every deer taken on a digital scale for the last 10 years, and I Know for a fact the average weights of doe and yearlings bucks has gone downhill on deer taken from same properties each year. How can that mean anything other than they are less healthy?? That obviously cannot stand for a statewide survey, but Id be willing to bet its leaning the same way. Before you say thats only one or two deer, its varies anywhere from 50-80 deer a year, and one of our guys runs a processing business that handles around 1,000 a year, many of which he weighs for any hunter who wants to know.And yes, I do know how to age the deer by their teeth.