Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[TheHunter]

"Call me a gorilla for pounding my chest when I shoot a decent buck but that is what excites me.  Especially on my own property.  Thats why I hunt.  My 2 1/2 year old 8 point that measures maybee 100 inches shot at my own place means more to me than shooting a 140 inch deer in another state."

So then why can't another guy feel the same way about a spike? The big ones aren't there, not because every one is shooting them but instead because the soil won't provide enough minerals to promote "large" growth.  AR's, as DEC has already stated, are a social issue and provide no benefit to the herd.

The bigger bucks are here, 8 and 8  + ptrs running around now thanks to AR.  Spin it any way you want.  Yeah, and the DEC is always right, so make sure you keep quoting them. LOL

[Fairgame]

A 3 1/2 year old 4 point would probably impress me because of its body size.  If it was legal why not take it.  It is not a common occurance.  The only time I have seen an old 4 point was when I was hunting in North Carolina my cousin shot a 6 1/2 year old 4 point that was 14 inch spikes with browtines heavy bases and was the heaviest deer at camp that week.

Doewacker,

Read what I wrote, there are two ways to look at things. Why cant I shoot an eight point.

Why all of a sudden we seeing more bucks and bigger deer. Is the DEC spreading minerals for their antlers to grow?

[steve863]

All it is, is that my Definition of hunting is different than yours and the same goes for everyone else that hunts.

This is what you don't seem to understand.  Without AR's you could still shoot what YOU want and everyone else can shoot what they want.  With AR's YOU are getting the advantage you want, while others can no longer shoot what they want and are put at a disadvantage

Why should I not have the opportunity to shoot what I want and others should.

You surely would, even without AR's.  You just want to try to make it easier for yourself with AR's.

Doesnt it seem selfish also on the hunter that wants to shoot brown its down? Like I said earlier there is two ways to look at things.

No more selfish than what you want.  Everything we do in life has some sort of selfish reason behind it.  The thing is that without AR's, EVERYONE can go about their selfish ways whichever way they want. WITH AR's you get YOUR selfish ways, while you are taking away the selfish ways of others.

 

[TheHunter]

Check out this thread: http://huntingny.com/forums/index.php/topic,916.0.html

Seems that people that are in the AR area like it, everyone in my area does as well that I talk to. Most of you guys are not talking from first hand experiance and or are talking about area's that already support nice bucks there this is not an issue.   

[Doewhacker]

"The bigger bucks are here, 8 and 8  + ptrs running around now thanks to AR.  Spin it any way you want.  Yeah, and the DEC is always right, so make sure you keep quoting them. LOL"

So wait a minute are saying the same DEC that put AR's in place is wrong? Well if you have a degree or background in deer management or sceince then please by all means share with us your knowledge. I am not spining anything DEC is saying, that is why I am quoting them. These are their "Facts" not opinions, like yours that there are 8's running around every where. AR's do nothing but divide hunters..oh and I hunt a AR WMU.. did you notice I don't trumpet that fact around on every post. We have hunted 3J for 11 years now, we have never seen anything over a 6 there so if you ask my family they don't work. It has everything to do with the area, at another property in Schoharie County we have seen and taken some real nice bucks that are older than 2.5 years and there is just as much pressure there as 3J.

[Doewhacker]

Check out this thread: http://huntingny.com/forums/index.php/topic,916.0.html

Seems that people that are in the AR area like it, everyone in my area does as well that I talk to. Most of you guys are not talking from first hand experiance and or are talking about area's that already support nice bucks there this is not an issue. 

haha thats funny the same guys that love it on this thread love it on that one..

Again..you either love AR or Hate it, there is no in between.

[steve863]

Check out this thread: http://huntingny.com/forums/index.php/topic,916.0.html

Seems that people that are in the AR area like it, everyone in my area does as well that I talk to. Most of you guys are not talking from first hand experiance and or are talking about area's that already support nice bucks there this is not an issue. 

Yeah, like six posters on the thread are for it and this proves that EVERYONE in those units is gung-ho for AR's?  Come on now! 

[Fairgame]

Steve863,

From what you are writing you have never experienced what it was like in these areas before AR's and what its like now.

Before AR's I was never able to even see a nice buck and now I do. So Before this I couldnt shoot what I wanted.

[Fairgame]

A big majority of people that are in these units support it

[TheHunter]

Yeah, like six posters on the thread are for it and this proves that EVERYONE in those units is gung-ho for AR's?  Come on now!

Right, I said everyone, clearly you don't READ.  I said everyone I'VE TALKED TO IN PERSON WITH FIRST HAND EXPERIANCE.  And clearly by there just being a few posters on there all you haters are not talking from first hand experiance otherwise they would be on there complaining about it.

[Doewhacker]

A big majority of people that are in these units support it

Care to back up your opinion with data?

[steve863]

Steve863,

From what you are writing you have never experienced what it was like in these areas before AR's and what its like now.

Before AR's I was never able to even see a nice buck and now I do. So Before this I couldnt shoot what I wanted.

Did you ever consider that you might now have a bit more hunting experience under your belt than you did when you hunted the same areas before AR's and that might be a reason you are seeing more and better deer?  I know hunters who have hunted for years and still can't spot deer if their lives depended on it.  Experience makes most hunters more observant and an experienced hunter will spot any deer a heck of a lot quicker than a novice would.  Lots of factors can come into play with seeing deer, least of which is AR's.

 

[Doc]

All it is, is that my Definition of hunting is different than yours and the same goes for everyone else that hunts. 

I believe that is true. You and others have decided that hunting should be measured in inches and that the sport of hunting and the people in it should be changed to accomodate that revision in measurement of satisfaction. Others of us try to make hunting a bit more than that. I do get the feeling that the activity of hunting gets a bit cheapened when it is reduced down to numbers and a demand that only an animal of certain stature is to be appreciated and pursued. It seems to me that there has to be something more to it all than that.

For one thing, the numbers game signifies a competition with other hunters instead of with the animal itself. That may be ok to some extent. I have gotten involved with some light hearted rivalries of that sort with hunting partners, but that's all it was was light hearted rivalry. It never led me to trying to force them to hunt using my goals or to try to dictate what criteria they should apply to their hunting satisfaction. I find that strange behavior and really wish it was not part of today's hunting scene. Today this antler-mania has taken on a bit of a pushy look to it. It's not really a very attractive change in hunter persona. I see all kinds of no-holds-barred approaches to getting antlers at any cost, and AR is just a part of it all.

Perhaps that is what the modern age of hunting is destined to become, and if so, perhaps that explains why some hunters have just decided that hunting is no longer worth doing.

Doc

[Doewhacker]

Thats right Steve, you can have neighbors and have one set see lots of deer and the others none, it has alot to do with skill and experience.

Doc.. did you find and read that article in Outdoor life yet? You pretty much summed up the point of the authors.

[steve863]

Yeah, like six posters on the thread are for it and this proves that EVERYONE in those units is gung-ho for AR's?  Come on now!

Right, I said everyone, clearly you don't READ.  I said everyone I'VE TALKED TO IN PERSON WITH FIRST HAND EXPERIANCE.  And clearly by there just being a few posters on there all you haters are not talking from first hand experiance otherwise they would be on there complaining about it.

My first hand experience is that at least two hunters I know have quit hunting their own land in one of these units because they can't get doe permits AND don't want to be restricted to a buck of six points.  They have little incentive to hunt there, and why would they not?  They now hunt on a relatives land in a county without AR's.  I hunted with them on their land years before AR's were ever even dreamed of.  Back then bucks of all sizes were taken way more regularly, along with just about everyone getting a doe tag.  Today they apply for doe tags and get JACK and can't shoot a buck unless it's a six point.  Go ahead and try telling them that the hunting is better now than it was then.  Plenty of their friends in the area are in agreement with them also.  Unfortunately most of them aren't so lucky in finding another location to hunt. 

[Doc]

Doc.. did you find and read that article in Outdoor life yet? You pretty much summed up the point of the authors.

I keep forgetting to go out town and pick up a copy. I might go out for supper tonite and stop in to get one.

Thanks for reminding me.

[moosemike]

I know AR here in PA has led to an awful lot of ground checking. Some of those bucks weren't big enough and were left to rot in the woods. Others were drug out after dark untagged. Either way there has been an awful lot of it. Now we have a three point minimum per antler so commonly the difference between an illegal buck and a legal buck is a browtine which can't be seen on a broadside buck. that's where the shoot first ground check later stories generally come from.

[UpStateRedNeck]

I like the idea of antler restrictions, but "ground-check" as moosemike said, and people leaving deer to rot makes me lean away from the practical application of it.

I'd settle for a "No Suit-Case Deer" restriction.  Please shoot only mature animals.  Bambi does taste pretty good though.......

[Doc]

I know AR here in PA has led to an awful lot of ground checking. Some of those bucks weren't big enough and were left to rot in the woods. Others were drug out after dark untagged. Either way there has been an awful lot of it. Now we have a three point minimum per antler so commonly the difference between an illegal buck and a legal buck is a browtine which can't be seen on a broadside buck. that's where the shoot first ground check later stories generally come from.

Another logical and predictable outcome. Of course it's not like the penalties are too lenient .....lol. $200 -$2000 fine, possible year in jail, possible loss of hunting priviledges. Just another way for honest people to be turned into criminals for making a simple point-counting mistake.

[Fairgame]

If a buck in a non ar zone is 3 or more inches and you already shot a buck and used your tag.  Now you see what appears to be a doe and you want to fill your tag and shoot.  You walk up to it and its a 4-5 inch spike but you couldnt see the spikes cause the ears were covering them. 

This isnt happening in a non AR zone?  There are 2 ways to look at it.  You need to be sure of what you are shooting whether you are in an ar zone or not.

[Doc]

If a buck in a non ar zone is 3 or more inches and you already shot a buck and used your tag.  Now you see what appears to be a doe and you want to fill your tag and shoot.  You walk up to it and its a 4-5 inch spike but you couldnt see the spikes cause the ears were covering them. 

This isnt happening in a non AR zone?  There are 2 ways to look at it.  You need to be sure of what you are shooting whether you are in an ar zone or not.

So now lets add a whole other dimension to the same problem.

[Fairgame]

Thats the way it is.  Its not a good enough excuse cause i'm sure it was happening before.

[UpStateRedNeck]

This "discussion" will be over as soon as Doc pulls out his M1 Garand and tells you to "Get off my Lawn!".

[Fairgame]

Its my lawn where I stand.

[TheHunter]

It's not working and not wanted so much that there are groups of land owners in Sullivan trying to push it through for the entire WMU 3.

http://www.nyscc.com/resolutions2010/sullivantompkins.html

Whereas deer populations in New York State, especially buck numbers,  are currently substantially down from previous numbers in many areas and  the herd must be restored;

Whereas New York’s basic deer management strategies regimes are  almost 100 years old and do not reflect recently emerging advances and  techniques provided for by scientific deer management;

Whereas the deer herd should be restored in a balanced and  biologically sound way by increasing the buck to doe ratio by increasing  the numbers and age of the buck population;

Whereas implementation of new deer management techniques and harvest  regimes could substantially increase deer hunter participation and  satisfaction, and ultimately provide a better and more efficient tool to  achieve the levels of annual deer harvest needed for better herd  management;

Whereas there is growing interest among New York hunters to refine  their role as deer herd managers and expand their hunting opportunities  and satisfactions, including the opportunity to pursue and take more  mature bucks and create adult sex ratios that are in balance with deer  herd health;

Whereas certain areas, such as Sullivan County have overwhelming support for improving buck hunting in their local area;

Whereas the DEC implemented antler harvest restrictions in 2006 in  Sullivan County in two units and the sportsmen of Sullivan Federation  are happy with the program and would like to expand the program to  include the remainder of the county contained in Unit 3A;

Whereas the expansion to include Unit 3A is also supported by Ulster  County Federation of Sportsmen, Greene County Federation of Sportsmen,    Schoharie County Conservation Association, Duchess County Federation of  Sportsmen, Suffolk Alliance of Sportsmen, Nassau County Fish and Game  and QDMA;

Whereas improved buck hunting could establish a statewide precedent and have far reaching implications;

Whereas improved buck hunting will benefit all New York hunters who wish to hunt in this region;

Whereas sportsmen with the support of their communities requested the  DEC improve buck hunting by implementing yearling buck protection for  unit 3A in 2005, 2006 and 2009, and the DEC did not adopt the proposal  and other remedies have not been successful in accomplishing this  requested change;

BE IT RESOLVED that the NYSCC position be that an alternative deer  harvest strategy that includes antler harvest restrictions needed to  achieve greater levels of maturity among the buck segment of the deer  population be implemented in wildlife management units that have the  support of local hunters, such as unit 3A, on a unit by unit basis and  that NYSCC advocate for and support regulation and legislative change to  implement said position including conveying said support in writing to  the DEC.