Doc

Frankly, if I were putting good money into a new bow, I would go into the bow-shop and tell the guy hand me a bow with a D-loop already installed, and give me that release over there, I'll pull it back and you measure me up for draw length and order a bow of that draw length. That's the kind of thing that the OP was asking about and that was my recommendation. I would not recommend that anyone be measured up for draw length with known elements of that length being left out. Why on earth would I do that? I do not want to start off by changing this and adjusting that. Just put the stuff on there and get it right the first time. Why does that concept confuse anybody?

The force draw curve does not change, your ability to reach it is what changes when you add in the D-loop unless you correspondingly increase your anchor point to compensate. Why is that such a difficult concept to understand. Are you trying to tell me that you could add as much D-loop as you wanted and never have it upset your established anchor point, and still approach the same point on the curve? Come on. As an instant replay, go back to the exaggerated 3" D-loop example discussed a while ago and tell me where you would be on the force draw curve if you didn't change your anchor? If that don't do it for you imagine a 12" D-loop. At some point it all has to come clear to you.

You never do really add anything to any conversations on here do you? When you don't know what is being discussed, flame away. It's too bad that we always have to wade through your nonsense every time we try to have an intelligent discussion. But, that's just the nature of internet forums there are always a certain number of members that just get their kicks out of that sort of thing.

First of all I'm not sure they don't. Second of all, you have to ask for it to be done. And third, perhaps a lot of people don't consider that 1/2 inch to be significant. Myself, I am very picky on where that wall is when I am at full draw. Maybe too picky in the estimation of some people. But then I am the customer and when I walk out of that shop, I want the bow exactly perfect for my use.

First of all, I start out with the premise that anchor points are chosen for reasons other than to satisfy accessories. A person chooses that anchor point for reasons of repeatability and consistency and should not be chasing it around your face to make some piece of added equipment work. Draw length refers to the pressure point of the bow handle, plus 1.75" back to the furthest point of the drawn string ..... not a D-loop, but the string. That point usually corresponds to your anchor point. That is the way the cam systems are designed and set up on the bow to get that furthest point on the drawn string winding up at a specific place in the valley of the force/draw curve. If you add some additional unit (D-loop or whatever) between that furthest point on the drawn string, something has to be adjusted to make that original draw length of the bow wind up in the same point in the valley of the force/draw curve. It is just simple physics. If you take a closed force system and then add 1/2" into it, something has to be readjusted or the system is wrong. Now if you are willing to give up your anchor (a bad idea in my opinion) and draw back an extra 1/2" to accommodate the extra 1/2" of D-loop, then you can use the same draw length settings. I'm saying you are in an archery shop. They can put the D-loop on when determining your required bow draw length. The release you have decided on is there so you can use that during the measurement, so why not do it?

There it is, the point that seems to be getting missed. Changing an anchor point is major, and it really should not be done to accommodate a D-loop. And if you are using your release as the anchor contact point, and you add something between the release and the string, you are lessening the amount that the string is being pulled back. And that is putting your entire bow system at a different point on the force/draw curve. It really is that simple. Your bow's draw length has to be adjusted to accommodate that. So why not set up the bow's draw length with that variable already installed? It really is a very simple concept to understand if people would take the time to actually read what I am saying.

In my case, I use the forward tip of the release as the corner of the mouth contact point. So other than moving the position of my hand, it probably wouldn't effect me. That is with my particular anchor. Other styles of anchor may be effected. That is why I keep saying that all of this stuff should be in place when measuring bow draw length. Even things that do not have obvious impacts, things that you may not even understand how they could possibly impact bow draw length should be installed. As I said before, bow draw length is one of the most important features when you spec out a bow. Why take a chance by leaving anything out. Bows are too damned expensive to be simply "winging" it.

Why do I bother ..... lol. You don't even read my replies. A d-loop is not all about rearranging your anchor point to suit the d-loop. And what is with all this adjusting of d-loops and releases about. If you put the damn d-loop on there to start with and measure using it and your release, you can simply have the bow set up with the correct draw length without all that nonsense of adjusting this and adjusting that and rearranging your whole anchoring system. Makes sense to me.

I'm not saying whose right or wrong. I'm just saying how it is. If I had an anchor like T-bone (and of course not everyone does), I would probably agree that the string sets the draw length. On the other hand he would probably agree with me that it is foolish to spec out a bow without having all the drawing accessories in place.

That would all be great if everyone used the same anchor. In my case, I use the release as the touch-point at the corner of my mouth. And if there is 1/2" or 3" or whatever of d-loop in front of the calipers, that all shortens the distance of draw accordingly. If I measured up the bow draw length without the d-loop, I would be under-drawing the bow by 1/2 inch when I put one on.

Assuming it is just to get people across, the small john-boat or canoe idea sounds like a good solution. Leave the thing tied securely so floods don't take it away when it's not in use.

Look, I made it as clear as I know how. I can't add anymore. You have to take the time to read and understand what I have already explained. I've given examples and even described an experiment that illustrates all this. Those that do not understand the nature of the force-draw curve on compound bows, and the importance of drawing to a specific location within the valley of that curve will likely never understand my point. Suffice it to say that there is no substitute for measuring the draw length requirements of a bow using exactly the equipment you intend to use. d-loops if you intend to use one, along with the specific release you intend to use. You don't leave out a 1/2" here and 1/2" there and expect the bow to fit you when you get all done. There's no "over-thinking" to it. There simply is a right way and a wrong way to spec out the requirements of a bow.

Let's use your 3" long "D"-loop example. exaggeration does make the point easier to visualize. If your set up does not accommodate that 3" distance into your bow's draw length measurement, when you do eventually put it on, you will find that at full draw, you are 3" short of the bow's valley. At that point, if you have bought a bow of a given draw length and didn't accommodate that 3", there is nothing to "tweak". It simply will be the wrong draw length for the archer. Everything you add between the string and the anchor effects the bow's draw length requirement. It makes no sense to buy a bow with a draw length that does not accommodate that. It will wind up anchored at the wrong point in the force-draw curve. You can demonstrate how it all works. Take your current bow set-up and add a 3" extension between your d-loop and your release. Now pull back your bow. It will be immediately obvious that you have just changed your draw length when you realize that you're no where near the valley of your cams. Nothing is more critical than a bow's draw length. When you are at full draw, using an established repetitive, consistent anchor that satisfies your form, the last thing you want is to find that you are not holding in the valley of the force curve. There is no tweaking. It's either right, or it's wrong.

What kind of current do you have during the spring run-off. You may be surprised at the kind of force current-driven ice can exert on bridge pilings. Any supports anchored out in the middle will have to be driven very deep into the creek bottom. What would be the use of the bridge, just for foot traffic, or ATV, or something bigger?

I'm not sure what the point would be. Older versions of male turkeys? Is there any documentation that increasing the average age of the male turkeys has any positive effect on the turkey population? I mean there has to be some theory of benefit involved and not just some arbitrary restriction just for restriction's sake..... right?

That was my first thought. To me it looks like a large patch of hide torn off the inside of the leg. Coyote, dog, or maybe just the top of one of those fences in the background.

The trick is aiming with a 3 dimensional mindset. If the animal is quartering, you still know where those two lungs are (or you should). Use that knowledge to make sure your aiming spot will catch both lungs. If the deer is quartering so severely that you cannot guarantee both lungs, wait for a better position. That has always been my rule of thumb and it has never let me down.

Well, I don't know about you, but my anchor point has not changed for quite a few decades. It is not dependent on what is happening out in front. It is a point on my face that I have determined will result in a convenient spot that I know I can repeat consistently. I do not have my anchor point chasing every little change in equipment. So if I maintain a constant anchor point and add something onto my string, the length of the draw cycle of the bow has changed. pretty simple concept. And when measuring draw length, it is something that should be on the bow already.

He won't be missed.

Yes it does. Anything that adds distance from your anchor touch point to the actual string subtracts from the bow's actual draw length. If you don't believe it, imagine a "D-loop" that was 16" long. Not a likely situation but that scenario does illustrate how the actual distance that the bow would be drawn would change assuming that you are not chasing your anchor around to accommodate the loop (which you should not be doing).

Is there anyone doing any standardized bow tests these days? Used to be back in the olden days, a guy named Norb (Norm?) Mulaney used to run some very good machine shot bow tests and measurements and wrote up comparative reports involving force-draw curves, hysteresis, chronographed speeds, flight characteristics and gobs of other technical performance criteria comparisons on a lot of different bows in a magazine called Archery World (not even sure that mag is still being published). I thought that was a pretty good service and was wondering if anyone else was doing that these days. It sure did beat all the Madison avenue verbiage that slants all kinds of information in a million different ways to favor a manufacturer's product. Just curious.

Congratulations on your choice to join the bowhunting community. Understand that you are signing up for an intense training session consisting of some rigorous practice and learning. That's not a problem because most likely, you will find yourself fascinated with the bow and arrow and will likely become a bit fanatic about shooting. My first suggestion would be to find a reputable, successful, bow shop rather than simply looking for bargains at the big box outdoor stores or internet deals. Understand that employees at the archery departments may likely be better at job interviews than actual knowledge. It's not that they are all dummies, but the odds of finding unqualified archery pros at those general all-purpose outdoor stores is extremely high. Also, there are some very good buys on the internet, but what you need is hands on guidance and real assistance. It may feel like you are putting yourself at their mercy, but the first words out of your mouth should be to tell them that you are brand new at archery and need some very basic help. That would probably be a good time to mention what your upper limit is on your purchase. Check out a few catalogs just to see how the prices run. I have no idea what your financial situation is, but I would guess that you might be looking for a middle of the road price range where you have decent quality at a price that won't break the bank. I am assuming that you have no acquaintances that are pretty good archers. If you do, you should pick their brain as much as possible before committing your first dollar. I am going to assume that you are going to be interested in a compound rather than a recurve or longbow. If that is not the case, there is a whole different way of looking for and choosing equipment. So, that is your first decision. Your second decision is to decide whether you will be using a mechanical release or not. This effects your draw length which is super important with a compound bow. If you have decided on a release, you will need to use the specific one that you intend to buy for determining your draw length. You will need the guy at the archery shop to first measure your draw length. I would guess that given the mindset today, I would recommend that you do go with a release. The decision is yours and I'm sure there are plenty of people who will argue against starting with a release. But the decision is really yours to make. A release is an aid to a more consistent arrow launch, and I would guess that the greater percentage of archers find it a useful accessory. I am recommending that draw length be established by actually having you draw with a marked measuring arrow rather than some of the less reliable "rule of thumb" kinds of ways to determine draw length. And by the way, along with the release, most guys are shooting a "D-loop" on the string. That also effects draw length. So that should be installed also when measuring draw length. While he is measuring your draw length, it is a good time to have him suggest an anchor point and have him watch how you draw to look for signs of over-bowing (too much draw weight to handle). Your ability to draw more poundage after you have shot for a short while while will change upward, so whatever bow poundage you and he agree on should be the lower range of the bows adjustability. Make sure he is commenting on your form, and the way that you are handling the bow. That first visit should feel as much like an archery lesson as it feels like equipment purchase. Make sure he understands that this is what you are looking for. That completes the initial info that you and he need for bow selection. Now comes the arrow selection. From the draw weight decision and the draw length measurements, he can recommend some arrows. The material of the arrows is another opinion based decision, and you will get as many different answers as those who offer their opinions. Check out the prices of the different materials and find one that fits your budget. At this point, I would guess that he will start running through a few bows that he has in stock so that you can shoot a few of them, and get the feel of what feels natural to you, and smooth to draw, and relatively quiet on release. Once you have decided on a bow, have him finish off the custom set up. You may consider using a peep sight and a bow sight. try not be too traumatized with sticker shock with these accessories. These guys really know how to charge for each little trinket. Oh, I didn't mention looking up a good book on archery just to familiarize yourself with terminology when talking to the shop owner. I know that I must have forgotten a bunch of things, but this ought to be a good start for others to add on to or offer their own viewpoints. I should also add that it would be a good idea to shoot for about a half hour to an hour before taking your rig home just to check for infant mortality types of problems. One other thought..... I know there are those that will say to let the guy at the bow shop spend all this time getting you all figured out and measured up, and then take that info to the nearest computer and order at the place with the best price. Out of courtesy to the bow-pro, that probably would not be the most ethical thing to do. I would not do that. On your next purchase (and I'm absolutely sure that some day there will be another one....lol), feel free to go anywhere that you want, but if this guy has spent a decent amount of time on you and performed a proper level of service, it is the right thing to do to make your purchase there. Also if things go wrong, you will have a throat to grab if need be hopefully just a short drive from home. Ok guys ...... What did I leave out? What do you disagree with? What would you all recommend differently? I think this was a good starting point.

Yup! That's woodpecker work. The bad news is that you know he wasn't just doing that for exercise. That tree has some sort of infestation.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but my understanding was that it was to be like a Bass-pro/Cabelas style store. But I don't know where I got that idea. Perhaps just wishful thinking.....lol.

I have heard stories of guys emptying their guns into the ground, stepping off their treestand platforms and doing all kinds of wild things. It is a crazy affliction that as far as I know, has no real psychological explanation.