Doc

I've got to say that the indications that I am seeing, this season hasn't even put a dent in the population. And I know that a lot of deer were taken in our area. I am in 8N, and I fully expect huge amounts of permits to be issued here next year. I can hardly wait to see the official harvest stats.

Ok, so you have some sort of active rabbit habitat activity going. So that makes your property non typical. Our situation like almost all, takes that variable out of the results. Observations are not tainted by any off-setting actions. As far as the hawk populations being the same, I just have to respectfully disagree. The increase is significant and noticeable. All species are subject to diseases. There is nothing unique to hawks that makes them any more susceptible than any other critter. And so I can see no argument that makes it necessary to give them 100% protection ...... anymore than one could argue that because foxes get mange and distemper and any number of the common diseases that they can contract, they should be afforded 100% protection. It simply doesn't make any sense. Look, I understand the emotional aspects that come to mind when it comes to the hawks, but if management decisions begin to hinge on how we feel about a particular species it probably is not too far out of line to wonder about that policy. Of course it is the federal government that we are talking about, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for something sensible to be done with that issue .... lol.

Somehow, this point has to be sold to the gun-owning public. We need to show these fools that their votes have consequences and impacts on their careers. They need to be punished for their disregard of our rights. For me that election is a one-issue vote. Party doesn't matter. Ideology doesn't matter. No other issue matters. There is just one criteria that determines my vote .... Did they vote for or support that SAFE-Act? And then the same day that I vote, I will be sending them an e-mail explaining why I voted for or against them. If they get the boot, I want them to know exactly what issue cost them their jobs. I want them terrified to ever vote for another anti-gun bill.

Yeah, now that you mention it, they are protected by the feds. Well, that explains the mindless non-management.

As soon as possible, I will be replenishing my reload components, and they can take their background checks (and fees) and shove them. I am starting to understand some of the mentality of these hoarders. It doesn't all have to do with gougers hoarding for resale.

First of all, it is now a cause for celebration when I find a rabbit track anymore. So perhaps it is a local aberration, but one doesn't have to be too observant to see a huge increase in raptors over the past decades, and a distinct scarcity of certain members of their food supply. That has been the situation for several years now. Grouse in our area are all but extinct. I am not blaming that all on raptors, and I do understand the role that other predators are playing in those rabbit scarcities, but I am noting that they are one of the prime predators of those species and unlike any other predators, they are completely protected. We seem to be actively trying to extinguish one class of predator, but are filled with some kind of emotional awe with another. I don't get it. Second, regarding the boom in raptor population, I am assuming that you don't look up too often .... lol. They really are not all that hard to see. Or how about the hawks all perched on the electric wires all along any highway. You haven't noticed them? It really is not all that hard to see a distinct increase in their populations. And why is that? ...... Because they are one of the very few species that receive 100% protection. I am not claiming to have done any sort of scientific biological study or critter-count, just simple observations along with the fact that this class of bird species enjoys 100% total protection and other than the occasional automobile, they seem to be at the top of their food chain with virtually no population controls. They are treated like an endangered species which of course they are not. Also, note that I am not advocating their extinction. I simply see no reason for them not to be controlled like any other species.

I do have some funny looking chunks of pounded-out concrete in my block wall. When I was tournament shooting, I used to practice daily in the basement. I had my release set to a very touchy light pull. While getting it set up, there was a couple of times that I went just a tad too far ....lol. I also have an arrow hole in the casement of the door at the middle of the basement. My brother-in-law thought he would try his hand at this archery stuff .... lol.

Hey, keep us updated on your progress. I think that would be great! You should document the whole procedure all the way through to a successful kill. What a great magazine article that would make.

Ha-ha ... it looks like this thread took a rather lively turn after I got off-line yesterday. Piled on another 2 or 3 pages just over-night ..... lol. Well, I have some preferred methods of hunting too and some that I really don't care for. But I will say that I have spent time doing all of them. I am not afraid to list off the arguments for and against each. It's what's known as an opinion. And yes, most of the reasons are personal and based on what hunting means to me, and the traditions and history that I was raised with. My feelings about shot selection are in the same vein also. There are certain shots that to me do not allow the shooter to pick a lethal spot before pulling the trigger (a criteria that was drummed into my head from the beginnings of my hunting). I am also not bashful about stating those opinions either. That's kind of what we do here, isn't it? And then we are always treated to one of these, "Can't we all just get along" whiney replies that frankly are getting kind of old. This is a forum. Opinions are expressed here. Like any opinions, there is some agreement and there is some disagreement. This does not mean that hunting as an activity is going to cease to exist and come crashing down around our ears. The drama is wonderful but really, let's understand that we all do things differently, and there really is no requirement that just because we are hunters, we all have to trash our beliefs and opinions just to avoid disagreements.

I'm not sure how to assess the balance of nature aspects of management, but I do sincerely believe that the uncontrolled proliferation of raptor populations does have impacts on small game species. Granted, that's a difficult thought to back up numerically, and is based solely on local observations. It could be completely wrong. But I do believe that our impacts on balances in nature do require our interventions in Mother Nature's more natural methods. Actually, that is the primary justification for hunting. It seems inconsistent to allow a certain species to be completely unchecked when they in turn dictate the population levels of other species. So to make management decisions based on the "coolness" of a certain species seems to me to be the wrong criteria. And I sincerely wonder if that doesn't happen more often than we admit. It is just another variation on the "Bambi-ism" syndrome. But, I am afraid that I am driving this thread way off-topic. I just got sidetracked when the subject of raptor control vs. coyote control came up. Sorry about that.

I never was much into drives, but I have participated in a couple. I also remember a lot of people who thought they could hit running deer. Many (most?) of them found out that they couldn't. And then there were the ones that could hit deer but not in lethal areas. We spent most of the rest of the day tracking those. Also, over the years, I have gotten a lot more selective in my shot selection. I tend to take high percentage shots rather than hoping for divine intervention .... lol.

My impression of that shot on the 2nd deer was that the guy was just doing what I call "body-shooting". That is just pointing at the center body crossing your fingers and hoping for something vital to be hit. Not exactly doing what we have all been taught ..... "picking a spot". The good news is that with the deer moving almost straight at him, and being almost straight down, the up and down running motion had no effect on the target. Also, the deer was very close. Still not a shot that I would have taken, but not as crazy as some of the running shots that I have heard people talk of. I think that hit was more good luck than good management since he accidentally paralyzed the deer and managed to anchor it there for a second shot.

When I was a kid, I used to climb the hill and then hike all day without ever seeing a posted sign. That would be like a 6 or 7 hour hike ..... no signs. Nobody cared. Not like that anymore is it?....lol. farmers were obviously more guarded about their fields, pastures, and yards, but when it came to the wooded hillsides, they were just considered excess land that kind of came along with the property but was of little use.

By the way, reviewing the video, I did notice that there was only one (the second one) of the four that were actually seen to be running, and that was the one that he screwed up. The first one was just barely trotting (straight-line). The other two we have no idea what they were doing. If they were standing dead still, it wouldn't be the first time I have seen a group of deer do that after a shot.

Moving or running? There is a hell of a difference, isn't there?

Generally when asked, I am quick to condemn running shots. That is not saying that they can't be made, but generally more people believe they can than there are those that actually can. A deer running through the woods is challenge enough if they were on a pulley and line, but they are also moving their kill zone up and down at the same time. And they are running between trees at the same time. Now I can be as gullible as the next guy occasionally, but really I lay success at that kind of recklessness more to good luck than good marksmanship.

As I understand it, using buck-shot on running deer has been known to work ....... Just like shooting birds and rabbits. But then that isn't what we are talking here is it? We aren't using buck-shot are we? Perhaps if you were able to successfully knock down flying birds and running rabbits with a single projectile, I might go along with that comparison. And I am sure there a few, very, very, rare individuals that can do that regularly. Good for them.

Yep! In the video, "Bowhunting October Whitetails", I saw the Wentzels doing that. I also noticed that they didn't really do all that well at it either.

There ya go. Wing shooting deer. You've got to get that lead just right (fore and aft and up and down) .... lol. But, what the heck, if you don't get them on the first shot, you still have 4 more in the magazine. That's probably what those 5-shot volleys that I hear every year are all about. Was I supposed to be impressed by hunting "trick-shots"? Sorry, I have no idea how many other times he has been blazing away with entirely different results. Ever wonder how many wounding failures a guy has to go through just to learn how to shoot at running deer? After all, there aren't a whole lot of different ways that you can practice shooting a target that is running full-tilt through the trees and bouncing up and down at the same time, other than just flinging lead until you get the knack of it.

Exactly the same sentiments that an ex-neighbor of ours used to have about deer. How many times did I hear, "Management and population control be damned ..... I like to see the deer"? In fact I have a couple of relatives that feel that way about coyotes. It's the old "doggy-thing". Nothing should be allowed to proliferate in an uncontrolled fashion no matter how "cool" they are.

Yeah, Disney grew a whole bunch of generations of animal rights wackos. I don't think that was his intent, but it all aided the establishment of a lot of these organizations. But of course, there is a whole bunch of social evolution that fueled anti-hunting stuff. Chief among them is the proliferation of people's desires to simply get into your stuff and mess with your life. Some people aren't really all that happy with their life unless they are wagging their finger in your face and telling you how wrong you are conducting your life. I think a lot of anti-hunting zealots are more motivated by that than anything to do with animals.

Oh great! Now the anti-gunners will be coming for our pump shotguns. 4 kills in 9 seconds ..... My gosh, that has to be some kind of assault shotgun.....lol.

Wow! You guys can turn any topic into a flame-fest ..... eh? This thread has taken quite a journey from where it started.

Good luck on getting him. Somebody on here came up with a good idea on one of the other threads. Take an old junk "throw-away" camera and fill it with dog-shit and let them guys steal that ..... lol. Hopefully they will get it all the way home or into their car before they open it up.

I've got a new cam in delivery right now as we speak. I just ordered a replacement for the one I had stolen from me. It should be coming any day now. It's a strange selection that bucks the trend quite a bit, but it is a Cuddeback Attack white-flash camera. The white flash is getting harder and harder to find for obvious reasons, but I am interested in pictures that are a bit more artsy-fartsy for night-time pictures. I'm not just after deer pictures. The one that got stolen took some fantastic pictures, so I wanted it replaced.