Doc

Quote: "hey Doc the crossbow was invented in the 70s, only 40 years ago and has in no way reached the end of the tracks as far as technology or performance, if that were the case we would still be driving Studebakers and flying cross country in prop planes." ------------------------------------------------------------ What the heck are youy talking about? I think you are only several centuries off ..... lol. Doc

Yeah ....... That's what he said ....... a cross-gun ...... lol. look, he can call it what ever he wants to. You understood what he was talking about .... right? Doc

Actually, I never said that the repeating crossbow was on the market and I did call it a prototype. Of course once again you missed the whole point of the examples as showing that crossbow technology is still in its infancy with huge potential and as the market acceptance grows, the technological growth will make the compound advances look primitive. And as a matter of fact, I saw the video and that repeating unit worked very good and showed the future capabilities of having the frame of a stock to work off of. As far as the reversed crossbow, I don't know anything about your contention that it was done only to make it narrower. or even the contention that it is slower because of the design. And I certainly believe that it demonstrates the fact that all limits formerly applying to bows are now put on hold with that stock available to build on. By the way, I read through the new NYS crossbow legislation (this is the state that I am concerned about) and didn't find any restrictions on repeater designs. In fact there are very few design limitations at all. I understand that not everyone sees potential when they witness it, but take my word for it, that repeater shows one thing very clearly: that stock offers a whole new set of opportunities for all kinds of mechanisms and other speed increasing features. The reversed crossbow also shows that there are all kinds of physical boundaries in an actual bow that get erased when you include a stock. However, if you find it inconvenient to acknowledge the potential and the fact that crossbow manufacturers are working diligently to make some of these things and more to become reality that's ok. I understand. But I would then also suggest that you also have to deny the wild advancements that the compound historically took since the introduction and acceptance of the Allen compound bow. And if you think that the crossbow does not provide a whole new platform of developments that are not available to bows, then you really are short-sighted. But then again, like I said before, you really don't care about that stuff anyway ..... right? Doc

I don't. No real reason other than the fact that I have absolutely no control over the consistant temperatures required to do the job properly. I believe the correct hanging temperature is about 40 degrees. repeated freezing and thawing is something that is supposed to be avoided. Seldom is the weather that consistant around here. Also, there have been quite a few times (especially in bow season) when temperatures have been pretty high (could be termed "rotting temperatures....lol). I will say that I have had some venison that was claimed to have been aged which really tasted bad. I have heard of people using old refrigerators to age quartered up deer. That sounds like a reasonable way to do it. Given the right control and facilities, I would imagine that aging would improve flavor and texture of the meat. It is supposed to. Without that consistancy, I would be afraid of things going bad. Doc

I don't really go out with any specific score in mind. In fact I couldn't tell you the score of a buck if it was dead at my feet with a tape measure laying next to it. I simply look at the buck and react as to what my impression of how big the buck looks to me. If he looks "big enough", and the shot opportunity looks reasonable, I'll go for him. Doc

Green is one of the colors that deer do see. That doesn't make it a deal-breaker because it is unlikely that they know what the heck they are looking at anyway. Doc

So what kind of habitat do these guys need. Can they flourish in open areas like ag lands? Doc

Yes, just remember these days next winter when we are up to our necks in blowing and drifting white-outs. you will wish they were back. However, I have to admit that I have no use for days that imprison me to the air conditioning. It's pretty darn hard to concentrate on bow practice when you have that trickle of sweat running down the middle of your back and dripping off the end of your nose.....lol. I sure did enjoy the past week where the temps hung around 70. Doc

So lets focus on the gadgets available for "bows". When will "bowhunters" start placing limits on what is/isn't proper add-on's to their bows and still feel their "bow" is no better than a xbow? Verticle bows have the same advantages as xbows (ie: triggers, scopes, string locking mechanisms, etc.) You don't seem to care what products enhance the compound bow, nor does the NYB. So why care if xbow are allowed, especially since both "now" share the same attributes? The argument concerning xbows is based solely on semantics. You bet. When I look at some of the accessories and crazy stuff we bowhunters have hung on our bows, it's obvious that we have just about given up on the idea of controlling the crazy techno-craze that has taken place. Who could ever have imagined back in the 70's when the ugly, relatively slow Allen Compound was introduced just what was to come? No wonder the attitudes toward archery have taken a "who cares" turn. And now we have a whole new platform to accelerate those technical advances. Imagine the things that can be done with a stock to work off of. All ready I have seen video of a prototype of a functioning repeating cross bow. Also, now I have seen a crossbow that has the bow mounted backwards with a few extra pulleys mounted. What that does for them I'm not sure, but I'm sure there is some tecnical advantage that someone found. And we haven't even reached the stage where the crossbow manufacturers are raking the maximum amount of R&D money yet. But that will come and technical advances that we can't even imagine yet will follow just as surely as they did with the compound. So yes, I do worry about the whole idea of changing and re-identifying legal archery equipment both past, present, and future. And I would think that anyone who values archery as a unique sport would be equally concerned, especially since it is obvious that we are on the cusp of a whole new round of such advances at a level of acceleratiion that we can't yet imagine. We really shouldn't be surprised that the muzzleloaders are starting to try to lay claim to portions of our seasons. We no longer define ourselves as a hunting sport of skill and limitations, and now we are taking another giant step in the direction of moving archery toward the guns. Furthermore, I think the crossbow will accelerate this attitude and soften opposition to muzzleloaders moving into what has traditionally been archery seasons by stirring in a majority that no longer has any real ties to the bow. Doc

LOL....... there have been volumes written and re-written and re-written again on that subject in these kinds of forums. Obviously there must be an awful lot of people who think there is a significant advantage or there wouldn't be such a push for acceptance. Certainly the crossbow manufacturers are slolidly aligned behind the position that they are the best thing since sliced bread and never hesitate to point out all the advantages of their product. I would say that over half of the people hunting in Ohio's bow season think there are advantages since the kill numbers due to crossbows has out stripped those killed with real bows for quite a few years now. I have heard quite a few hunter-heroes on TV proclaiming the advantages of the crossbow at levels that even surprised me. The bottom line is that anyone will readily admit to the advantages of the crossbow over any vertical bow unless they are engaged in an argument over the inclusion into bow seasons and then you would have to wonder from their statements just why anybody would ever want to own one. You get this sudden turn-about. So that is a subject you will have to figure out for yourself. You will never find a resolution to that question in a forum. Doc

Do NOT kill Bigfoot!!! That might just be my neighbor. They often get confused with each other. Doc

Yes to all of the above. They are all hand drawn, hand held, BOWS that require all of the same form and mental disciplines and consistancies in order to be successfully and accurately shot. None of which applies to a crossbow. But then that is pretty obvious isn't it? Actually, I already made that same point earlier in this very thread, but thank you for giving the opportunity to repeat it (again!). It is an important point that refutes the constant distortions when it comes to compounds and those people using them as a bogus precedent to jam crossbows into bow seasons. A lot of people before us warned of this happening back when the compound acceptance arguments first took place. Who would have guessed it ......... it turns out they were right...lol. I wonder what kinds of things people of the future will try to cram into the bow season using crossbows as a precedent. But then you don't really care about that do you? Doc

I take most of that stuff but use my cell phone for any needed communications. I also carry a small folding stool, a compass, drag rope, rangefinder, rubber gloves, plastic bags, small pair of binoculars, water, toilet paper (for marking blood trails and also the more obvious use). My knife is always on my belt whenever I head into the woods. I also carry a pair of brush nippers. I'm sure there's other junk stuck in my pack that I have forgotten, but I would have to look . Doc

Lol.....The Boogey Man will get you. It's amazing how those wacky thoughts will creep into your head when walking in the dark. Can't stop them either. Funny how sometimes I don't think about any of that stuff, then other times, I can't get it all out of my mind. Yeah, you bet .... every little snapped twig or rustle in the leaves becomes a rabid 10' bear frothing at the mouth and looking for something to mangle. The human imagination is an amazing thing ..... Ha-ha. Doc

The area that I hunt is the same land that I hunted since I was a kid. I could almost walk some of it with no light at all. So I really don't need much of a light. Just a small flashlight to keep from stumbling over sticks and logs. However, during gun season, I carry a bit larger a light mostly so I can be seen. There are way too many shots heard in the near darkness long before legal shooting time. So, I want to be seen! Also, I want a light that is big enough to shine at any hunters that may not see me and start setting up in an area that I consider too close to me for safety. Doc

Simple - allowing all archery equipment to be used in the bow season - including that 2400 years old. But see now you are going against that wonderful benevolent attitude that you expressed a few replies back. You are advocating now that the aging hunter should not have the right to choose. You want to make those choices for him, and sure enough, that is exactly how these things work isn't it? You are agreeing that we always have to put limits on things. We don't always have the right to choose just because we have reached a certain number in our age. And by golly as long as we are having special seasons, there has to be some limits as to what is put into those seasons. We certainly disagree as to where those limits should be placed, but none of that really has anything to do with age (nor should it) and it's unfortunate that people try to muddy the waters by trying to bring that into the discussion. There are still very viable options open to those that can no longer participate in the physical activity of bowhunting and thousands of people use those options every year. Shotguns, muzzleloaders, rifles and pistols provide those options along with the appropriate seasons. Nobody is being deprived. So to use aging or physical limitations as a reason to cram inappropriate weapons into seasons that were never intended to have those weapons is just a false issue. Doc

Gutting a deer is a stinking, disgusting task. But, it is part of the hunt. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. Doc

30 yards is it for me (a lot closer if I can arrange it). Sure I can do a lot better on the range but I get a little nervous about deer reaction when I start shooting any farther. So maybe I pass on some longer shots that might actually be successful. That's ok ....... I'm not into bowhunting to see how long a shot I can take. So up to 30 yards is where I feel reasonably confident. Doc

Wing of a butterfly (moth)? A lot of moths have that "eye" marking in their wings.

Hey, I am an aging hunter. I like choices. I like the warmer weather hunting. How about we change the laws so this old geezer can eventually grab a rifle when I feel like it and hunt deer during the early bow season? How far do you want to go with this nonsense. "An aging hunter has earned the right to choose", you know. Yes, I know how some would answer that ...... lol. If I asked that question in a serious fashion, there would be some here that would say, " yeah ...... what's wrong with that idea". Doc

I try to do all my maintenance myself. I have had a heck of a run of bad luck with small local shops, even some that were well established and had a reputation to protect. When you think about it, most of the so-called experts at the local shops are simply "tinkerers" that have no certification or anything that makes them any better at it than we are. So whenever possible, I take my bow to the one that I trust the most .......... me. One thing is for sure, I will put in whatever time it takes to make it right. That's a luxury that most archery pro-shops don't have. Over the years I have never hesitated to pull any of my bows completely apart. In fact a couple of my tournament bows wound up laying on my workbench with no two pieces assembled so I could give them custom paint jobs. It was no big deal. After all, we are not talking about auto repair here....lol. Doc

Yes, I have heard of "footed" shafts before, but the examples that I have ever seen were purely a shaping of only one kind of wood to get the FOC effect. However, we never messed with them because of expense (regular arrows were expensive enough .... lol), and the fact that we frequently lost or broke arrows. So regular old straight cedar arrows were good enough. However, these multi-wood varieties are quite attractive plus I can see where the different densities (weights) of the different woods could be used to enhance the FOC effect. I just thought they were pretty eye-catching, and would make a great addition to an archer's collection of equipment. The only thing is that I would be reluctant to shoot them for fear of scratching them. Frankly, I would have them hanging on display in a den or something..... lol. Doc

Are we just supposed to take your word for that? How do you know that most older archers don't simply take up a gun when they can no longer use a bow. For me a gun would be the easier thing to handle if the my body were breaking down from arthritis, and other physical maladies. Doc

I honestly did not know that arrows were being made out of laminated woods. Those things are really cool! It actually is an art-form. Things have come a long ways since my days of simple old Port Orford cedar shafting.....lol. Doesn't that mixture of woods and the odd ways that they are integrated into the shafting affect the spine? Doc

Actually, I spent quite a few years shooting recurves before I picked up the compound, so I am very familiar with what it takes to shoot both. First of all, there is nothing about recurves and longbows that require that sights and releases not be used. When I shot recurves, I tried instinctive shooting and in fact got my first deer that way. But it didn't take too long before there was a sight on my recurve. As far as the release is concerned, the turks used the ring released centuries ago and there were some in my recurve days that were using releases. So what really are the differences in shooting recurves and longbows versus the compound? Well, as a matter of fact there is still the entire max draw weight that has to be encountered at some point through the draw cycle even with a compound. Also, apart from the hold-weight differences, the act of properly shooting both a recurve and a compound are exactly the same. All elements and disciplines of form are identical including the stance, draw, consistancy of anchor, consistancy of hand position, consistancy of bow arm bracing and muscle alignment, consistancy of sighting, back tension, release, follow through. Further, failure to abide by these disciplines results in the same penalties in terms of target results. So, all of these elements are required to shoot a compound, a recurve and a longbow and that applies whether you are talking sight shooting or instinctive. Now, tell me which of these archery related shooting disciplines apply to a crossbow? Part 2: If you want to enjoy those hunts with your father again, I would suggest that with the lengthy regular gun season that we have in NY along with the muzzleloader season, there is nothing prohibiting that from happening. If he can cock, load and lift a crossbow, chances are pretty good that he can do the same a rifle or shotgun (perhaps even easier), and can therefore continue to hunt. That is exactly what I will be doing in a few years (maybe even sooner than that) when I get to the point where I can't shoot my bow anymore. That is if I still have the ability to pick it up, aim it and shoot, which may or may not be the case. If I can't do that then a crossbow is hardly going to solve the problem. I hear people talk about the crossbow like it is the absolute cure for all the ails and frailties of the aging process or the physically infirm when in reality, it is severely lacking in that regard. That point is getting clearer and clearer as I begin to approach that inevitable point in my own life. Doc