Doc

Not really. Your same assumption would make apple orchards and farmers hay or corn fields as being prohibited feeding of deer. And of course that is not the case. However if you really want to see real contradiction in Conservation law regarding feeding, consider that we have one county that has no "feeding" law. I'm not sure how or if that conflict ever got resolved.

Another thing that we often forget is that the reasons for laws can be arguable and don't necessarily have to be proved to be correct to still be valid and enforceable. We can argue all day about whether the law makes sense or does what the DEC thinks it does, but the side of the law always falls on the side that followed procedures and made it become law. Anyone who thinks a particular law stinks, is certainly free to begin a campaign to get it changed.

No, they have only one answer. You pile deer food, you are guilty of baiting and feeding. You plant an apple tree or put in an ag crop or a smaller version of a crop (food plot) and it's legal. There is no "different answers. There definitions are clear and precise.

That is true. Deer reactions and just plain screw-ups do happen. However, it wouldn't surprise me whole lot if many of these poor results are the result of simple panic and poor choices, or even some of the screw-ups are a result of pressured panic and other forms of basic buck fever style breakdown. Yes there are many different reasons for face-shot, leg hits, or gut shot deer running around with arrows or slugs or bullets in bad places, and there are some things that simply fall under the category of bad luck. But I suspect that many of the cases of bad luck are self inflicted by bad decisions and excessive pressure to just get something.

Many hunters put so much pressure on themselves to get a deer. If the deer happens to have a decent rack, some of these people go absolutely berserk. Shot selection be damned.....Just get an shot somewhere in him.....anywhere! All the good words and training and lecturing go out the window when that level of excitement takes control of their mind. You can preach until you are blue in the face, but these people are just go nuts when a deer finally gets anywhere near them and they lose all control of themselves. And it happens regardless of what weapon is being used.

Many laws have caveats that are necessary for practicality. Let's face it, the DEC is not going to make planting fruit trees illegal simply because they happen to also attract deer. Farmers are not going to be arrested for planting crops that deer feed on. And food plots cannot be made illegal either because there essentially is no physical difference from Farmer Brown's ag crops and Joe Hunter's food plots. However, a wagon full of corn or apples, or a special contraption for dispensing bait grains is an easily identifiable set up that doesn't look like any other legal activity. If it has been established that such practices are to be deemed illegal, bait piles and feeders can be easily identified and made enforcement can be accomplished without a whole lot of hassle involving proving motives and intent. Defining "baiting" in the way that they do makes a clear distinction without trying to get into the mind and motives of those attempting to do it (which is a hard thing to prove). Actually, baiting creates two DEC violations....Baiting, and feeding. Both are illegal.

Free-roaming dogs are not at all unusual. I have heard people say that one of the benefits to moving out into the country is that it gives their dogs freedom to run. If you shoot them and the wrong people find out, you are in trouble, and likely your name will be published in the local paper as a filthy low-down dog-killer. Unless the town has a leash-law on the books and a dog warden who is willing to enforce the law, the people and domestic and wild stock in the county are at risk. To many counties have an unstated policy of being a "sanctuary county" when it comes to dogs. Aw the cute little puppy-dogs can do no wrong. The only comment I have is that if you ever think that you might have to take matters into your own hands, do not publish pictures or comments about specific dogs. It makes you a potential prime suspect when those dogs do not return home.

Actually, I didn't have a thing to say on this topic until it began to morph into that same old crap that we have been fighting and arguing about for several years. What is the fascination with recreating these same divisive topics, unless it is just some thrill of trolling for reaction and trying to keep the discord alive. And I don't care whether this kind of thing happens in the bowhunting forum or the crossbow hunting forum. This kind of baiting of the opposite side is divisive, and I don't care which side is promoting this kind of contention. A post like this one is simply intended to extend the fight and it should be noted that it was not posted by an anti-crossbow individual.

I do "get it", but I refuse to simplify the physics of wind direction to just one isolated effect. I have already said that I am a student of thermals as the country that I have hunted all of my 57 years of deer hunting is impacted at one time or another by the fact of thermals. But thermals do not act alone to determine wind direction. There are many other forces in the same environment that are working with or against these forces of cooling and warming atmospheric conditions. Part of the significance of thermals depends on the amount of area that these thermal forces are working on and the magnitude is affected by the size of the slope and height variation. The flow and the force of thermals builds as the distance and elevation change increase. This is what determines the magnitude of temperature driven wind forces and how their effect interacts and tries to overcome all of the other wind direction determinants. The lesser the change in elevation the more likely that thermals become insignificant and are diffused by other factors. So if you are going to give advice, it is important that you cover the subject adequately so as to not mislead. There is a whole lot more science involved in the study of wind direction than simply saying daytime cooling always causes wind to flow downhill and daytime heating always causes wind to flow uphill. I have been burned by that kind of over-simplification and partial analysis, and so I am very careful about giving out inadequate and possibly misleading information.

I have a longer view of hunting than most, with 57 years of unbroken deer seasons to look at, and I have seen a lot of significant changes that impact our hunting. 1.... Many of the prime deer-movers have been discontinued. The big drives, and the ever-wandering still hunters have turned into sitters that keep the deer anchored in their sanctuary cover areas. Without deer being moved, the impression is that there are none. 2.... People have become much more selective in what deer they will shoot at, and so the shooting seems to be a lot more quiet. 3.... Hunters are way less enthusiastic and energetic than they used to be. State parking lots that used to be over-flowing into the shoulders along the highway now seem to have only a half dozen cars in them. 4.... Hunters vacate the woods at lunchtime or before. 5.... After opening day, most hunters now find something else to do. if they come out at all, they seen to be 1/2 day hunters 6.... Open hunting land is at a premium now. Where years ago posted signs were an oddity that were seldom seen, now it is the odd parcel that is not lined with signs. Much of the private land is un hunted or under-hunted, and the deer simply stay where it is quiet and safe. Again, giving the impression that there are no deer. 7.... Yes, as has been mentioned, the food plot frenzy is in full swing which tends to keep deer anchored to a particular parcel of land. The list of changes goes on and on and most of the changes give the impression that the deer herd is diminishing, when what is really diminishing is the pressure that hunters are applying to keep deer moving. there appears to be as many or more deer out there if you place any credibility in the DEC numbers, but when you are sitting out there listening to the long periods of dead silence, you begin to get a much different opinion. Before the flood of replies start that claim that there area sounds like the Battle of the bulge throughout the season, I must add the disclaimer that my comments regard my area of hunting and what can easily be observed from where ever I happen to be hunting on any given day of the season. But I have to also say that I have heard and read similar comments from a whole lot of other people with similar observations.

Find an old deer skull and look at how small the brain cavity really is.

The problem is that I have seen deer in several of those choices, and the poll does not allow for multiple selections. And I hunt both private and public land and have seen deer on both.

These are the situations that turn a bad personal trait of stubbornness into a good quality that will result in a successful retrieval. Many years ago, I had a situation where I had made a terrible shot on a deer and had wounded it in the leg. I tracked that deer up over the hill, and began jumping him out of various beds but no shots. He went in a huge arc and eventually came back down the mountain and into a thicket back down in the valley where I lost the trail. That was a 2 or 2.5 mile tracking job that took all day. Even then, I didn't give up. The next morning I was down in that thicket trying to find the trail again. I did come across him and he was unwilling or unable to get up, and I shot him right in his bed. Yes stubbornness can pay off. It would have been much better if I hadn't have blown the shot, but once that decision is made to pull the trigger, a new responsibility takes over.

Actually, the advice I have in that circumstance is not to bank on thermals in that kind of super-subtle circumstance. So many people try to over-simplify thermals and fail to understand that just like any other force in physics, wind direction is the resultant of many deflections and other forces that work on the thermals. Prevailing winds can often negate thermals. Yes the thermals are still trying to do their thing but often get reversed by stronger opposing winds. Having paid close attention to thermals and other physical land shapes that direct wind around, I have learned that those who count on thermals alone without considering topography and prevailing winds will often find themselves trying to hunt in a bad wind direction. In order for thermals to have an effect, they have to result in a force that is greater than any other opposing influences. And the subtlety of the diagram provided will make that very difficult in anything other than a dead calm wind. Where I hunt, hills are in the 1000' elevation, and when thermals start working on that kind of slope and surface, the influence on wind direction becomes significant. And even in those cases, I have seen prevailing wind direction opposing the principles of thermals and shunting the wind direction in a way that could never be predicted. So to ask anybody to predict what the wind directions will be in the case of that diagram, the only advice that can be given is, "it depends!" No, I will not give Bionic half an answer, because there is no single canned answer. That all is why at nearly every stand set, I have trails covered with two stands on opposite sides of the trail, and make my choices on the spot when I actually see what is really going on in that particular location.

Yes but unlike you, I eventually caught on to the fact that this animosity between vertical bowhunters and crossbow hunters has gotten old and serves no purpose other than to cause friction. Now if that is your purpose, then I can see the reason for this post. Some of you have decided that this forum is not to discuss hunting and shooting of crossbows, or tech talk regarding crossbows, or techniques, but instead use it as a place to extend the politics of your choice of hunting equipment. That has been done already to death and now only serves the purpose of maintaining the contention and discord. I know I was smart enough to figure it out and am not afraid to pass on that discovery as per this reply. But apparently there are others who haven't quite figured it out yet or choose not to.

So on a 30' high hump, the deer will be 10' down from the top of the ridge ....lol. I think you are failing to see the scope of the layout here. We are not talking hills or valleys we are talking a minor depression.

Seriously! I would consider butchering it right there on the spot and packing out the hide and bags of meat using a pack frame and many trips.

I have learned to use hillside thermals as a prime part of my hunting strategy. However, according to the diagram, I do not consider 30' to be a hill. The one thing about thermals is that it does take some distance and significant elevation for the thermals to reliably overtake prevailing winds.

So you seriously think this constant redundant manufactured friction between bowhunters and crossbow proponents is really useful? What kind of kick do you really get out of continuing the same old tired arguments year after year after year. And I am talking about both sides of this issue. Are you getting some kind of thrill out of rehashing the same old divisive garbage. Exactly what new information has this post provided ..... none. Now as far as who can participate in this forum, I was not aware that there was any limitations. And no it is not a place where you can carry on the incessant sniping without expectations of return fire. But frankly, the rehashing of crossbow pro and con is truly getting overworked and is really looking more like someone who truly enjoys promoting the discord. Is that what you are all about?

First of all, if I am understanding the diagram correctly, I have to say that 30' is not a hill, it is more of a bump in the terrain. So I really wouldn't expect it to have a lot of thermal influence. And so prevailing wind is the big thing there.

I'm sure that those in the know when it comes to bear hunting have their ways, but I have always wondered just how you get a huge bag of several hundred pounds of jello with no handles, out of the woods. I wouldn't even know where to start.

Ha-ha-ha.....I have to say that I really don't give a damn who plays in or who wins the super bowl. I'll just let the kneeling ninnies work it out among themselves and try my best to work my TV programming around all that worthless wasted air time.

Great shot placement!!

Aren't you guys feeling just a bit like programmed recordings. Why don't we just take the other 598 threads on this same subject and copy and paste them in here. It would make just about as much sense as going through all that nonsense again. Seriously, don't you all feel just a little foolish running through the same crap over and over like a bunch of parrots? I kind of doubt that there is anyone who has not heard the same old arguments pro and con so many times that it is all enough to make a person vomit. Now you are all just on auto-pilot regurgitating the same things apparently just to practice your typing skills. Otherwise this redundant thread has absolutely no value at all other than to simply try to piss each other off. Is that what we are now trying to do?

It is the reality of aging. It will happen to all of us if we actually live long enough ..... Ha-ha-ha. Maybe that's the right way to look at it. When you hit a certain age, just think about what the alternative to all that pain and discomfort is. That's not nice to even think about .... lol.