SteveB

I agree Joe - that is why a statewide AR system because some want the herd to have more 2.5's to shoot is not a valid reason to change. Especially when long term results from other states are showing it may not only be not beneficial, but harmful.

Great post Culver!! Pretty much nailed all I have tried to say. The questions you ask and points you have made should be easy to answer IF facts truly support a sound reason for a single statewide change. The study from Mississippi casts serious questions on a points based AR system as to not only not leading to improved health, but actually hurting the herd. Something like this cannot be taken lightly and should not be done because a change is sought for the sake of change.

2.5 is not and never will be a mature deer. And if they are being so eagerly shought after and killed as it appears to be, the number of actual mature - 4.5's+ - will never show any statistical increase of significance.

A 2.5 with spikes will never be a AR legal deer - part of the reason for my signature.

My last free pass to a trespasser was given 4 years ago - zero tolerance now - all get charged.

Again - the reason this proposal had overwhelming oppostion was that the benefits would have come to few with the majority being hurt. Also this proposal made a strong case for why points based AR IN THOSE WMU's would be a poor management choice. I posted it to demonstrate how difficult it is to impliment a statewide restriction because of the varibles in different areas. And to support my opinion the best way for change is threw continued education and example - not a blanket restriction that could seriously harm some areas.

I addressed that in my post above. That extra income wil benefit few hunters and hurt them in the long run - just as it has all over at the midwest destination big buck areas. There is too much business in hunting now as is.

Probably the finest inlines made - poor investors and a lawsuit by Knight kept them from becoming what they should have been commercially. Lots of history at http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/

I really don't see the point of letting 1.5 go to shoot them as a still very young 2.5 buck.

Scent killers are another catagory - they can reduce scent but adding the earth blend does nothing.

2 types of scents: Attractant/curiousity like doe pee, vanilla etc - these may work sometime. Cover scents like earth, fox pee, anything used to cover/hide human scent. These can't and do not work as deer posess the ability to detect anf process multiple orders. They simply smell the fox pee and you - one scent cannot be hidden by adding another.

I have a 500 acre state forest - Frozen Ocean - bordering me. 70 to 80% row planted old pine with noting growing underneath. They started clear cutting sections 3 years ago - the new growth and habitat recovery is amazing. Hope the program continues.

Nice bucks - show the promise they would hav had if allowed to reach real maturity.

Just to be clear - I asked John to post the article because it makes a strong case for why points based AR does not always work for its desired outcome in a lot of areas. I did not support this proposal either as a mandatory program and fought hard against it. The reaction to it was overwhelmingly negative and it and the group faded quickly.The problem was its success would depend on and severely increase the push for limited pressure. Many of the original 20 group members where part of groups that had exclusive rights to large areas with few hunters. Without a doubt, the type of program would result in an increase in bigger bucks. As soon as this started to happen, every bit of private land in those 3 units would be a prized, valuable, costly target for hunting access to be locked up and controlled. The majority of hunters living there would be shut out - they would either be increasing the pressure on the public land (which with poor habitat would not see corresponding improvement) or quit. Just ask the residents of Pike County where they hunt since its become the big buck place - its not close to home. The program would have worked, but the results would end up being enjoyed by but a handful of hunters. That's why it had intense opposition and why it failed. Be careful what you wish for.

That's my point - perception and reality may not be the same. To make a claim that very well could not be true based on perception is not right.

I got it too on Sat. Took over my AVG and Malware so and all other programs would not open. Couldn't get on line either. Did a system restore, updated virus programs and ran AVG and Malware in safe mode a couple times. Stayed off here until today when I got brave.

Accidents are something truly unavoidable for the most part - and are very rare. Incidents are events that are allowed to happen by clear conscious choices being made. This one, and most hunting accidents are really incidents and should be identified as such.

.Please post the percentages for NYS.

Then why on earth should they just open their land to all who think they are the savior, when in fact it will have little to no effect beyond what they are doing???????????

When you get 2, 1 is either/or and the other is antler less. If you get one, it is either/or and can only be used in the season you have license for - either bow or MZ.

Where did I say anyone was waiting?????? I'll try to be even clearer - they ARE HANDLING the "problem" for the mostpart just fine by themselves and with those that hunt their land already shooting any they see. Most make their living on the land and are not hiding or blind to anything. They are the ones with the most to lose, are aware of it and are dealing with it. And they are doing it without throwing their land open to anyone in the state that thinks going to Homer to chase piggies would be great fun or a noble service to the poor dumb inept farmers. That is the "reality".

yep - its a law in Pa. Yet the actual rate of compliance is higher in NY where it remains common sense.

Just wanted to be clear I didn't have any agenda. The problem is there is not a lot of them and they constantly are on the move from food source to food source. See them today and tomorrow they are miles away. Like I said, go ahead and try. But as far as I can tell the landowners view the influx of new hunters to be as much or more of a problem then the few pigs out there.

They have plenty of people they know (not talking about me) that door knockers (or worse) they don't are becoming less appreciated all the time. Go for it if you like - just telling you how it actually is. Not trying to discourage anyone from wasting time out of any self interest - I have places I could go to hunt them specifically if I choose to do so - but do not.

I live near, hunt in and know several landowners in the area and don't bother to try targeting them. Knocking on doors will be wasted effort for the most part - especilly if looking to bowhunt them. There is some state land around there where they are seen occasionaly. They are out there, but still pretty rare and move around a lot.