nyantler

Rocket I have used this doe concept for about 20 years now.. and after about 30 does or so since then... have never killed a button buck

the idea is to try and take the bigger does ... it is recommended to have at least 2 does present to use as a size gauge.. more is better... shooting the bigger deer also helps keep the button buck kill to a minimum as well

AR alone without a thought out doe harvest probably won't do much for buck to doe ratio ... in the first couple years of a management program AR there will be less bucks taken (because of the lack of legal bucks/ per # of hunters) ... and the hold over of yearling bucks will be greater... that along with a good doe harvest will start to bring the buck count up and the doe count down towards one another.. and so on for a few years as the ratio stablizes.. then the doe harvest will need to be adjusted to match buck kill to maintain a close ratio as more legal bucks have become available for harvest, thus increasing the buck harvest. The key is having the patience during the first couple of years... when the populations of bucks and doe are stablizing realizing that it will take a few years to fill in buck age groups that have diminished over the years. Eventually kill numbers will get back to normal... usually within 4-5 years.. but usually you start seeing the benefit to the buck herd after 3 years. The other key is the right AR... 3 on a side is not a good restriction for protecting yearling bucks.. spread is better in the field. What really needs to happen is... hunters can't be focusing at how they can hunt close to the antler limit, but rather trying to make sure they are not taking yearlings... we all know what a big buck looks like, so thats what we are trying to harvest. For example.. if the legal spread limit was 14".. we shouldn't be hunting 14 " bucks, but rather bucks that have the kind of head gear that a bigger more mature buck would have. The 14" limit would just be a measurement used for those guys that want to attempt a guess at a buck close to the limit.. if you want to hunt close to the limit instead of hunting bigger bucks you might get yourself a fine.. 14" is just a legal benchmark to protect young bucks...without the benchmark guys would be shooting small bucks claiming they thought they were bigger with no penalty for having done so.

Four 4 1/2 yr olds... I'd say that's great for CNY... or anywhere in NY for that matter.

I don't think more numbers necessarily equates to a better hunting experience... but i'm sure other guys do.

I checked some of my old notes and I was mistaken QDM started in the 1960's in Texas.... biologists Al Brothers and Murphy Ray JR were the the guys that came up with the original idea

Joe Hamilton was founded the QDMA in 1988 ... he actually took the concept of TDM - Trophy Deer Management (which he once said would never catch on in the US) and developed the concept of QDM which was geared less towards creating trophy bucks and more towards balancing out of whack deer ratios along with bettering deer herds in limited habitats. But, Texas developed the first deeer management plan way back in the 1950's

As an aside... food plots were used in the original QDM concept... but they were treated as a safe zone and were never hunted over... they were usually close to the lodge or hunting camp and were completely off limits to hunting... keeping them close to the lodge or camp allowed the area to be watched better against guys cheating and hunting near it as well as a means to record deer numbers and identify certain bucks.

The notion of AR's came directly from deer management concepts devised in Texas in the 1950's as a means to balance buck to doe ratios and buck age structure that was in terrible disarray .. when the idea of QDM made its way to NY in the 1990's some genius figured out that a better age structure would mean more and bigger bucks.. then some other genius came up with the idea that bigger bucks would be a great way to promote QDM... then another genius decided planting huge food plots would satisfy the part of QDM that was designed to help deer by naturally maintaining good browse for deer during the winter months. Lastly, some genius realized that one could make a ton of money off of all of this... and a new QDM was created which promoted huge bucks and massive food plots to keep those huge bucks on your property. That is not the QDM concept that was used in Texas in the 50's and originally promoted here in NY. It is also not the kind of deer management I am talking about when I speak of QDM. But, to be fair.. I understand that this is the one that you all seem to be most familiar with.. but it is not the original plan... many of the current QDMA leaders in NY... didn't even know what it was 17 years ago when I first started talkiing about it here in NY... Even Dr. Grant Woods who originally brought the concept to NY and first tried it at Weller Mountain has moved away from the original concept of maintaining a natural healthy herd based on the given habitat.. and moved to bigger bucks and larger food plots... The QDM that you see today on TV in south Texas is not the same as the original concept.. and my opinion is that QDM has become more like an invasive deer farming than a natural deer management. So when I say that I am for AR it has nothing to do with trophy hunting and everything to do with having a more balanced buck:doe ratio with better age representation in all the age classes of bucks... period I don't need AR to kill big bucks...

Just curious Rocket is there suppose to be some deep meaning to these threads or any forum for that matter... none of this banter is important to me at all... just a good way to pass the time and participate in some good debate... I love all the different opinions and get a good laugh out of guys like you that have no idea what they are talking about and occasionally I learn something that I didn't know. Kinda like hanging out with buddies without hanging out with buddies... I even have one buddy who is a lot like you.. he was kicked in the head by a horse when he was younger and doesn't make much sense either.

Antler was the name of the magazine I published years ago... but the nic Antler was usually taken.. so I added the NY to it... nothing clever here :

WoW... ??? I didn't even notice... 100 pages .. my job is done here... carry on without me ;D

I have posted it several times on a couple threads... I'm getting tired of repeating it... lets just say.. it isn't about trophy buck hunting As for passing on small bucks.. I don't caare if you or your naighbor shoot the buck I pass on... I pass on them because I choose to pass on them... if I pass on a young buck that leaves a chance that he may survive... If I kill him ... I am 100% sure that he will never grow to fill in another age class in the buck population... it's that simple. You're right, me passing on a buck is not going to have much impact on any overall management improvement... personally I don't pass on bucks thinking its going to change anything. I do it because I personally think its the right thing to do.. and frankly, young bucks are so easy to find and kill that I don't find it a challange. What others do has no influence on my choice of hunting.. I do it to satisfy me... Like you.. a statewide AR will not impact my hunting experience what so ever... as I have stated many times before.. in my opinion I still think AR's are a good idea along with any solid management plan, but thats my position on the subject if asked... I am not lobbying for any program or really care one way or the other if it ever happens in NY. But, I am very well versed on the subject and have done numerous seminars on the subject as well... long before most guys on this forum ever heard of it. I am only interested on passing on correct info... to help combat the BS that most of the guys spout... Other than that.. I just think its an interesting topic

still on the weed huh rocket?

what it means are my thoughts.. and how can you discuss something if you don't know what it means??

Missing the point... thread is about how much you are willing to pay...we all like cheaper prices... but if you answered lower the fee... that means that you are not willing to pay the current fee and will not be hunting. I'd like to know where would the breaking point be for most guys that would make you not buy a hunting license? How much are you "willing" to pay?

ok if you don't like me or what I have to say... go to another thread... or start your own. Or don't read my posts and talk amongst yourselves..

Has nothing to do with lesser quality bucks...thats what I'm talking about when I say you don't know what you're talking about....and thats the reason why this thread is almost 100 pages..because there are guys that still just don't get it.... and those that think the thread is too long or any thread on the forum is being over worked... go to some other thread or start your own if you don't like this one... this is a forum.. a place for discussion.. if you don't like this discussion find another

Remember,Ar's alone do nothing to improve the health of the deer herd and the habitat. In fact without a program of herd reduction (HR) both the habitat and the overall health of the deer herd will suffer. That is absolutely correct

The more I see your posts the more I see how little anyone knows about the purpose of AR's... you all are so missing the real point...it has nothing to do with imposing anythin on anyone.. it's an idea that has been successful where needed and will not be imposed on anyone unless it is the right thing for the deer... get off the trophy hunting kick already... the real purpose of AR has nothing to do with trophy hunting... you may think it does because of all the hype you hear by guys that have no idea what they are talking about... If you think the actual original concept of AR's has anything to do with trophy hunting you are dead wrong!

I'd play but too much like nonsense to me... no fun!

so pathetic.. you still are acting like a child Arrow... nah more like a .. nevermind :

Are there no politicians with integrity any more??

shot down again!

Well thats a horse of a different color.. why didn't you just say that in the first place Arrow?? Although as a traditional bowhunter I still don't know how it would bother my bowhunting during the bowhunting season, but maybe thats just me.