nyantler

I wasn't referring to you grow... I was referring to the thousands of hunters I have talked to over the years and my perception of most hunters based on those conversations... I have heard what you heard for almost 25 years its an ongoing theme with most hunters... I have a good idea that your not like most hunters. Sorry if it seem like I was implying that.

It is not just enforcement of the law that concerns me... for me it's living by my personal rule of doing the right thing and keeping my integrity... even not getting arrested or ticketed after getting caught says something about somebody regardless of how law enforcement handles it... my choice and obligation to keep track of legal shooting time is more about what I would think of myself than what others think of me... even if I never got caught I would have to live with the lie of how I shot that deer minus the after legal shooting time part... a burden I'd rather not have to carry. In the day of cell phones all set to the same time... knowing legal shooting times and adhering to them are very simple... just like tagging your deer, reporting your kill, etc etc... knowing when legal shooting time is, and having a watch to adhere to that time is your obligation as a hunter...maybe having 10 hours a day during gun season and 12 during bow season just isn't enough time each day for some hunters to kill a deer or cheating is in their nature.

For years I have had this fascination with big 6-points... not the no brow tine kind of six, but the typical 3x3 with brow tines and G2's only... if I have one dream in hunting it would be to kill one... not sure why I'm so drawn to them, maybe because they are so rare. I have two buddies that have taken a big six... but I have never even seen a live one in the woods... does anyone else have the same fascination? My buddies with their six points

If you're looking to hear the woes of hunters and anecdotal guessing games hunters and hunting shop clerks are a great source... if you really want to know what deer are up to... that comes from experience with whitetails and spending hours following them in the woods... having dealt with NY hunters for nearly 25 years... I am amazed at how little most of them really know about deer and about hunting them... I think most of the problem is the deer finally figuring out that the funny looking metal ladder thing that's been in the same spot for the last couple years that smells funny needs to be avoided.

I agree... and, killing coyotes to increase deer populations is kind of counterproductive to how we are trying to control an already large deer population... and barely keeping up I might add... coyote hunting serves the same purpose as deer hunting... to keep the population of coyotes in check and allow for another cagey game animal to enjoy hunting... and again, we are barely keeping up... although we do need to keep in check any predator populations, we are far from any epidemic of out of control coyote populations as far as the deer are concerned. If the coyote problem was as bad as most hunters worry about for as long as they've been crying about it... there wouldn't be a deer left in the woods to hunt... that just isn't the case.. no matter what hunters think.

Even with that... if deer numbers were way down and you hunted down one deer all season and it was a 150 class bruiser and you killed it... the bad season just went out the window. Deer numbers being lower might keep sightings down, but doesn't have to make for a bad season... depends on how you handle low population years. Like you said... it's all part of the game, but also how you play the game.

I don't know if I can put my finger on the real reason that I hunt... I'm sure it has something to do with the challenge... especially the 1 on 1 challenge with a mature buck on his turf... but I also enjoy the comradery of hunting with my buddies as well... I have always loved the outdoors and shooting too... I guess it's a combination of things that makes it so interesting and fun. The serenity is a huge factor as well... time to think in peace... getting away from the daily grind and enjoying all the beauty that nature has for us... pretty cool really when you think about it.

There is an element of luck involved in hunting as well...

Unfortunately for most hunters that's the way it will always be... the problem really is after opening weekend there is very little pressure on the deer... the amount of hunters in the woods on any given day is dramatically reduced... without many hunters moving deer it makes it easy for bucks and does to hide in more secluded areas without worry of being bumped by a hunter... sitters will always have a tougher time later in the year unless there are some does that come into a 2nd estrus near there hunting spot... so those that aren't willing to change up their tactics late season are going to have nothing more than a nice sit in the woods. We all make choices and with those choices come consequences.. its really that simple.

Hunters need to realize that being flexible is a key element to successful deer hunting... sometimes even thinking outside the box a bit.. we need to remember that deer do not have a manual... they are always in survival mode 365 days a year... their activity can change in a heartbeat to something that doesn't even resemble normal deer activity... they are highly adaptable, which means hunters need to adapt as well... those that learn to be flexible early in their hunting life usually don't complain much about seeing or killing deer... habitat change is inevitable... which means what deer do in that habitat will change as well... most older hunters know that because they have seen it happen... younger guys.. not so much... I think the transition in hunting towards sitting instead of moving will make those slight changes in deer patterns more noticeable... it is much easier for a deer to pattern a stationary hunter than a moving hunter.

It really does boil down to what works best for you... if going in early works.. then that's what you ought to be doing.. there are no real rules for how to deer hunt... deer are different, people are different... your experience will be different than others... do what keeps it enjoyable for you.

The Catskills can be, in some ways, similar to the ADK's... deer density is lower... seeing and killing deer becomes almost entirely based on the ability of the hunter... there are deer there and big deer... it's just going to be much harder to kill one... mountainous areas won't keep as many deer as the winter takes over the landscape... they will move on to yarding areas or places with better food sources... this is also true for most of the vast non-agricultural areas of NY... true in the Tug Hill region as well... lots of deer early season very few late season... if you're still hunting those areas late season expecting to see deer around every corner then you would be proving my point that not seeing deer is usually on the hunter. Hunters not knowing how whitetails act or travel given different situations and landscapes is not a deer problem it's a hunter problem... you will never hear an ADK tracker talk about the lack of deer density keeping them from killing a big buck... their knowledge of big woods deer is what makes them successful in one of the lowest deer density areas in NY. Lack of sightings in generally high deer density areas is definitely on the hunter.

Deer "density" will vary depending on where your property is... 400 acres of land in one area will be different than 400 somewhere else... a better question would be why would anyone continue to hunt a piece of land for 8 years if there are no deer there? Sorry but you just have a bad spot to deer hunt... not knowing where and what kind of property you have its hard to know what you're dealing with that keeps deer from there for 8 years... here we're talking about pieces that have gone from lots of deer sightings early to fewer deer sighting later in the season or from one year to the next.. not pieces that have never had many deer... your piece is just a piece that deer don't seem to like for some reason.

A friend of mine... use to do the celebrity turkey hunt there years ago and filmed my TV special there ... a good choice http://www.turkeytrotacres.com/

Now finally!!.. a good reason to get there early. I do remember one archery season day being in my stand at dark because I heard there was going to be a meteor shower that AM... front row to the best light show I've ever seen... worth every minute of sitting in the darkness.

I like the in your face approach... being quiet is exactly what anyone against hunting likes from hunters... they like being the only ones being heard and seen... your approach plays right into their plan... they like having the podium with no contention... I like when my neighbors see me with hunting clothes and my gun... gets across right away who I am and where I stand on the subject. But I do understand that some don't have the balls to stand up for what they believe... we're all different.

I wonder sometimes if when we use the words honesty and integrity when describing our character... if there are some that don't understand what those words really mean... those words always seem to get the definition of " holier than thou" or "better than others". Like having honesty and integrity is a bad thing... After hearing some of what is posted here its hard now to take all of the posts about ethics seriously.. frankly I'm surprised at the lack of integrity I'm getting from many of these "hunters". Although we aren't "holier" or "better" than anyone here... I am a little disheartened that we are definitely very different than so many.

The grunt call works great for any pre-dawn spooking of deer.. as long as they don't smell you and especially during the rut... many bucks will return to that spot... hoping to see what he thought he heard... Without the grunt call though, he may spook off to somewhere he thinks is safer... When I did more stand hunting I was usually in a few minutes before legal shooting time... just never saw the need to be there much earlier... never hade a problem seeing deer... plus I never wanted to see that huge buck 10-15 minutes before shooting time and drive myself nuts knowing I couldn't shoot him.

I knew at least you would know what I was getting at... for me, tracking deer in the snow has been the best whitetail education available. if one is going to be successful at taking deer... it pays to know what they're really doing... and not just guessing all the time.

A guy like you that has a bit more knowledge of food plots and stand placements on managed property probably won't notice much difference in small pattern changes... the weekend warrior that has only one stand on 25 acres might notice much more... and between you and me (shhh), the guys complaining about not seeing deer ( that we all know are there) are the latter. and for those that don't believe the deer are there... just take a walk around your property a day after a new snow...

I'm guessing that no matter what it is... there will always be a portion of the non-hunting people that won't like what's going on... unless a good explanation can be given for why it's being done... and even then some won't accept it. You can make some of the people happy some of the time, never all the people all the time. I'll bet there are hunters that don't like it

The real truth is that AR's are an "all in" proposition to be the most effective... a half hearted, some in - some out, approach defeats the purpose, which is really to stretch out age structure... do they work for that purpose?.. of course... but it is not the end all be all for the hunting experience... in fact it can have just the opposite effect if everyone is not on board... at this point it makes little sense in NY statewide based on how many hunters would be on board with it... the fact is that those that want to kill big bucks seem to be able to do what it takes to find one... others get lucky and stumble on one... others can only kill small bucks... and some simply can't seem to kill a buck at all... and yet most, or maybe even all, of us still can't wait for each new deer season to begin... As someone that is all about good whitetail management for the sake of the deer and would love to see a better buck age structure... I do enjoy that killing a big buck is still a huge challenge because of their relative rarity... it makes the experience that much more rewarding... not sure it would be as much fun if finding one was easier...how's that for being tugged in both directions??

I'm sure you're right about pulling deer completely off of one property for another... I was talking about travel patterns... I would bet that patterns change at the slightest addition or elimination of a food source... just like humans might be able to be patterned from the couch to the frig pretty regularly... but if I put a jar of cookies in the basement... I'm sure the trail to the basement would become a new place of heavy travel... animals aren't much different. A simple pattern change could detour the deer right away from ones treestand

I think people that have a hard time believing there are some that can pass on a good buck at the last minute are usually speaking about how they would handle that situation and would like to think they have company... which I'm sure you do... just not with me... and I'm sure a few others on here with integrity

Then I must be full of crap... because I have had the chance and didn't and wouldn't... but I'm not naïve enough to think that for a lot of hunters it would be hard to do... It couldn't happen ever now, because I don't leave my truck until legal sunup and back to the truck before sundown.. 8 or 9 hours of legal shooting light is plenty enough time to kill a deer... don't need the extra few minutes before or after.