phade

All I know is I need a slow melt....

Not going this year, but it's a good show to go. It doesn't change as much year to year though. With the new ownership/mgmt., the show definitely has a larger gun/gun hunting focus last year. I found the archery section to be about 1/2 as big as they were before. Also the independent shops that sell hunting gear were much less common. It was nice to be able to see a wider selection of guns, whether they were tactical or hunting. But above all, the pricing of items for sale went to heck this past year. Deals were darn near impossible to be had. Years past you could find some great deals. Having said all that, its an enjoyable show.

Cva also makes on i believe.

Relax Doc...not everything has to always return to the OP. This thread had morphed already and everyone has said pretty much their final word on the matter. We've moved on, and so should you.

I'm not speaking to his points or Doc, but one of the examples tossed around was parenting. A 70 yo non parent might not be the best to offer advice to a 30 yr old parent. Sure he/she may have seen alot in situations so some advice might be prudent, but I'd be taking any POV like that with a major grain of salt. Old people have alot of wisdom to share, but there are certain things where any one person might have limited experience to offer despite their age and thus what is offered might not be what one would call "take it to the bank" level advice. Even advice that a 70 yr old parent might provide could no longer be applicable. Some/much undoubtedly will be applicable, but there are some things they just can't account for - like the fact that a 70 yr when raising young kids, likely did it in a one-wage earner household where that one person worked for the same company their whole life. Parents today likely have two-wage earner households with careers that'll likely span 7-12 employers over the course of time. Think about how all that affects things like discipline, time management, and so on an so forth. I place alot of value in advice offered by those who have been there, done that. But, placing too much value on things that might no longer be apples to apples is equally as "dangerous" as under-valuing times where that advice might be completely relevant. One of the more valuable things I've learned is that older people often have better thought processing on how to attack/address something. That generally is relevant across the board. I guess the real advice from my POV is have a balance with such matters.

This doesn't match my goals. I almost always plant before a rain when seeding clover if not being frost seeded. Cheap clover seed has been used for generations for food plots, small farms, horse fields, etc.

A good friend has a Vermont Casting wood stove and he's had nothing but problems with it. I guess the company has had some business issues - he went through hell finding replacement parts - so much so that he bought two of the parts in case he needed to go through it again. A part that wore out much faster than it should have, too. Something about them going bankrupt or being bought out, or something. I forget the story, but he wasn't too happy with the cost of the stove vs. the performance and the following supply issue. I'm all LP between the furnance and two ventless fireplaces. Not ideal, but at least the fireplaces can keep the pipes from bursting if power goes out.

Trying to do local...bought from Welter before, but not really interested in the shipping costs.

Indeed, but the lattitude rule is separate from food source - look at deer in Canada; they eat really really low quality food, yet have bigger body mass. Soil quality comes into play, but as far as a rule goes, the east/west distinction goes against the grain for the lattitude rule.

Pretty much that says it all. I need some cheap clover seed to frost seed. Planning on getting a couple areas of a field into plots, but really want to frost seed clover into a couple sections and then spreay with cleth as spring comes into play. No broadleaf issues in this field at all, just grasses. Some of these areas will be worked up later in spring or July for annuals, but at this point we don't know specifically what we'll be able to get done and what plot areas will be what. This is more of an insurance policy/minimzie soil work/fix N, etc. I've done this pretty successfully in the past on smaller areas (1/4 or less), but we're probably looking at 1-2 acres I'd like to at least do this to, and quite frankly, I don't want to spend alot on clover with the possibility some/most of it might be worked later on this year. Anything...med red, cheap white, anything...? Hemlock is a bit far from me drive time wise, and we don't have the world's greatest co-ops near me. I figure I need to get my hands on about 8-10lbs.

Interestingly. another powerhouse state, Missouri, is considering moving to OBR for archery. Just found that out today. Don't know much of the details, but that's a big move for a state that's already got good hunting.

It's an interesting concept because the eastern seaboard states go against the Bergmann rule...rather lattitude, it's longitude that often dictates body mass. I've seen deer in western parts of those states be on average much larger than their eastern counterparts. I shot a full size grown doe in Virginia Beach (within eyesight of the Atlantic) that was just under 60 lbs. The tooth aging (take it for what you will) put her at 4.5. I was super young and wouldn't have weighed or aged her at that time, but it was on a military base where the program had all deer checked. That was pretty much the norm there, though. 60-65lb does.

Any and all changes to deer seaons should be thought out and not solely for the sake of bigger/more bucks and more targets to make hunters antler rich. I'm also not blind to the fact that one size doesn't fit all for NY. What's good here by me, might or might not be for where you are. The DEC wants to add ML seasons or antlerless seasons here, but I guess I don't get that because I don't see the need if they just changed the process by which you can get DMPs. 8C and other WMUs already have this process - shoot a doe, bring in proof, get another tag, instantly. I can't see that needing legislative involvement since it's already done in several city-area WMUs. But, somehow, we need a season just for does according to the DEC. I could buy into that alot more if they were taking any steps at all above just issuing more tags, but that's all they do and say there's nothing more they can do, which clearly isn't the case. I feel like the DEC could wave a wand in these areas because I believe they have the authority to do so, and make very fast, very concrete impact on the deer numbers. Obviously, that's dangerous though because the DEC doesn't exactly have the best track record for hitting specific marks....they seem to under or overshoot, and rarely get it "just right." Mike T. who leads the Ohio DNR set forth a small range at the beginning of the year publicly. He wanted herd reduction by X to X percent, and after tallying this year, they're going to be smack in the middle of that range. I can't fathom the DEC being able to do/say that and actually hit it. That's scary to me.

South Carolina deer near the ocean can be so small its amazing. Further inland they get bigger, but wow, I've never seen such small adult deer as I have in the eastern VA/NC/SC/GA strains. Good chance for a velvet buck. Gun hunting is king.

OBR in pairing with other management regs/practices should allow for WMUs to be able to hit their BTO more reliably, increase overall age of buck harvest, and push increased doe harvest in areas that need it, which is where the population concentrations are (both hunters and deer). Many of the WMUs with BTOs that have been routinely exceeded are also the ones where doe numbers are high and to date, the DEC has only been able to issue more tags. There are far more BTOs exceeded than underachieved on a statewide basis. One thing I do think they should do for those units that need it is allow hunters who kill does to get more than a specified limit of tags - ie, harvest a doe, take the head in, and get a new tag - none of this need to get second drawing or consignment crapola. They already can't give out enough of the tags in many of these WMUs, so why not allow the ones who can and do kill the does to keep doing so. We got a little light on doe tags and started holding back just so we could ensure we had a tag to stay afield this past season (we hunt 3 WMUs all with high-high odds DMPs). Sure, other parts of the state don't have this issue, but much of the state's concentration of deer and hunters do.

While i certainly respect qdma/qdm biologists, i dont think their goals align with state mgmt goals. I dont put alot of credibility into that component of this process. Its also taken second hand without context. OBR has proven successful in too many states as part of a management plan for a biologist to state otherwise without some pretty big qualifiers.

ha...got it now. I can see your dad hunting.

LOL, no why? Did I miss an email or a text or something?

I think some of the younger people can no doubt do more in some way shape or form. Some of the younger people, probably the ones you want working on such things, have minimal free time due to careers, young klds, etc.making it difficult. Not saying that's an excuse for all, but many of these old people that lead groups have more free time due to being retired, semi retired, working part-time, and/or a more simplified homelife. Obviously that's a wide paintbrush, but any of the young people I consider worth a darn, have very busy lives with clear cut reasons. The ones that have free time, generally aren't the ones you or I would want working on such matters. Again, wide paintbrush, but I think you can understand what I am saying in that respect. It's not related to hunting either, you see this in many forms of hobby/passion. About the only time where younger people take the lead are on things where the older generations don't have mass exposure - ie tech related hobbies.

Got an interested parent/youth, so at this poiint, I would say it is spoken for. Just trying to get a time set up to meet once I get over this flu/cold thing.

Like I've said several times before, it's likely cost prohibitive or the gains are not as much as you think they might be based on their response, or a combination thereof. That's the reasoning. Evidence of this is that no whitetail state really does this on any macro level, yet it is acknowledged by our own DEC. Their response to me indicates that its not going to provide a positive ROI.

I think we should work on a thread that we can pin to the top of this forum for some of the more common food plot seeds, clover being one of them. There is likely alot of value in this because we can get alot of "national" info on how certain food plot types perform, but being local to NY, we can get better direct feedback based on experience. I know there are a TON of plotters here, we just don't get much into the details other than back and forth conversations. Was thinking if we may be able to standardize the posts so there's no time lost in pulling/searching info and back and forth talk. We can modify whatever we see fit as a forum. Was thinking example as: Location: (County) Name: (type of seed) Type: (Red, white, etc.) Annual/Perennial: (obvious answer here) Seeding rate: (lb/acre) Planting date: (spring, fall, month, etc.) Plot size/purpose: Soil Prep/method used: (variety of methods) Soil Type: PH Level/Test Results Growing Conditions/Prior Usage: Ongoing upkeep: (mowing, spraying, fert, etc.) Results: (Great, poor, OK, etc., whatever you desire) Why you like/dislike it: (whatever your thoughts are) Suggestions on where to buy/cost: (tips to help source it)

I think that can be included - just lay out the blends and relevant info.

You get out what you put in.

We can all look in the mirror, me included. Some of us write articles on hunting, some of us run websites dedicated to antlers themselves, and some of us are smart old men. I question whether our efforts are rightly focused the more I think about such things regarding NY. Accepting the DEC "No" is a perfect out to do nothing in my mind. The DEC was against the AR in this part of the state, yet that group forced the DEC into adressing it. It still got voted down based on feedback, but nevertheless it wasn't taken as gospel.