phade

Yeah a few counties got it on the second try. I think they were proposed too late in the legislative session, hence why this one is going in early. Liv got it on the second try and I think wyoming too. Liv was at the county level though, just too late to get it to the legislature first time around. I think wyoming didnt make it the first time since it hit legislature the last week or so of the session.

Itll pass.

Sure, why not.

Never heard of so many people complaining about cabin fever in my life. This year is way above normal.

Push back on Bushnell - explain the lifetime warranty and see what they can do. Many times I've heard of people getting what they want after calling in. I've heard them be much more sticky on the rangefinders than anything else.

That's what I have.

People can spend some whopper amounts on a turkey gun. A basic 870/500 will do the trick. I think I beat my guns up more in turkey hunting than I do deer hunting. I'm more inclined to go cheap as a result. My 500 has taken a beating but shoots hevishot pretty reliably. Admittedly I'd like to turkey hunt more but don't have great ground and it boils down to a time thing. 3-4x a year is about it for me, too.

Point one is the bold - private voluntary restrictions are apples and public implementation of legal restrictions are apples and oranges. One is that people are willing to commit to following this 100% privately, this is not the case publicly in any way shape or form. As you stated in bold, co-ops want bigger antlers and older bucks. AR on a statewide level (in our considered proposal) isn't boiled down to that alone - if implemented the DEC's rider will be to try to also increase or better manage doe harvest in specific areas and act in part of a larger management plan. Not just to try to get buckzilla to grow tirdy points. They've already stated it is not needed biologically. If it is a tool implemented, they'll need to tie to hunter desire as they have done and also show that it acts in betterment of their overall management plan, which likely means riding hard on doe harvest in areas that need it. Point 2 is that Vermont and the extreme NE (NH/VT/ME) deal with a facet of herd survival we do not have as much of an issue with save for the 'dacks. AR there is also to ensure herd stability/survival of the herd in its most basic form. The state got hit with die off in 03 and 04 and AR was instituted in 05...to advance the bucks, be able to push doe harvests when needed (as happend in 08/09), and INCREASE AVG BODY WEIGHT (reduced food source/range competition), which is attributed to increased survival rates through winter. Again, both are sound (I'm using that term according to the letter of the goals, which in NY was to advance the calss to 2.5 but based on hunter desire) and its because of what I stated earlier that you don't seem to get - such a reg is sound for its intended purpose or its not; there's no degrees or levels of "biologicaly soundness." Having said that, VT is/was considering removal of the restriction as recent as this fall for some parts of the season for a couple reasons, first is probably because they have a better handle on the deer herd now (assumption on my part), the second is that the data shows that the average beam length of yearlings has decreased (the famed highgrading), and the third is that hunter satisfaction/desire is trending away from it. An independent review of the state's AR was inconclusive as to whether AR was a success relating to advancing the classes in 2013. Let that sink in for a second.

No I don't because they only have a few months in a given year to actually get anything done with any item that requires legislative changes - part of the reason NY is hamstrung. They're talking about managing differrently than the regional/WMUs (aggregates). Not just the change itself but how it is managed is a big undertaking.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this - there seems to be some lgitamcy from Albany that there WILL BE some changes/modifications this season. For them to say that now is pretty clear-cut because I don't think a statement would be publicly verified without the push to do SOMETHING. Problem is if they are rushed and forced into making a move before they are comfortable, yet they end up doing so because of these early statements because the expectation is being set to the public.

Im sorry but using your example of private entity vs. Public isnt even relevant. Doing private voluntary things are way easier than public regulation. I dont also see how less complex a restriction is the less biologically sound it is? I dont even see how one could make that assessment. A restriction is either sound or not sound for the purpose its intended for. It seems like you are confusing the purpose of such a reg to begin with, which probably has to do with the focus on private entity voluntary actions. Other states using it is a fine example but come off of any coop exampling. Its apples and oranges.

Voluntary ARs are one thing, mandating ARs to the gen pop with points and spread restrictions, that's another. I know some southern states do that and it just boggles my mind how that is done effectively in the real world. My head would explode if I needed to count points and assess spread on a buck in a hunting condition when legality depends on it - its one thing for personal/voluntary purposes, yet another when a freaking citation is on the line. I have to believe that's a pretty complex standard by which to assess harvestable deer, and I don't think complex is what NY needs. If regs are to be implemented, it should be relatively simple to understand and implement and for the hunters to follow-through with.

Congrats, be proud as heck. Make sure you get him on a good hunting trip. Work hard, play hard.

That's really interesting. I've not seen much research into that, so that is pretty cool. How was the guy/girl? Were they pretty friendly when you spoke with them? I would have picked their brains alot lol.

4 points a side...that's the breaking point with AR in the 8 and 9 regions. Not sure many people would like to see that...I suspect that would change support levels quite a bit because most people don't realize that a 3 a side rule wouldn't move forward the necessary 1.5s at the pre-set rate for success by the other AR wmus.

Told by the DEC? That's an interesting survey design.

I don't think that is surprising...the local QDMA branch there had been pusing for AR for a long time I believe and several participate in that forum in big volume. You see alot of them yelling for statewide AR, and not much about regionalizing it if it is deemed necessary/wanted. It's also geographically closer to the AR areas so I am sure some crossover exists. No idea on the OBR thing - DEC puts OBR support at 50% statewide approximately. I wonder if they broke out the regional submissions if wNY was more pro OBR whereas that region was pro AR, for those who were pro anything.

This guy like to hear himself talk. Doesnt take a brainiac to recognize bucks are not continuosly moving for years before calling a place home. He makes it sound like they are nomads. The OBR commentary is just lol...

Met up with the dad and kid. Kid was pretty happy. Glad itll get some use. Thanks to 132pointer for getting me connected with the dad. Orleans county deer should be a little more worried this fall.

This isnt some national secret. If youre going to post something like that, presenting a veil and not even hearing it first person just seems...odd. you were right on the term, you used qdm community, so i was off on that.i guess thats beside the point of this thread though, there are merits to alot of options and that needs to be decided upon.

My assumption was he used the term qdm and meant qdma...people use qdm and qdma interchangeably wrong too often. It really makes people look uneducated (nothing at all about dbhunter) when they yap about qdm and qdma and use them wrong. I lile the good old, i practice qdma. I just have to lol at that.My assumption is hes talking about Dougherty or someone similar. Cant imagine he is referencing Hurst.

I reckon one can be elitist not in spite of their track record,too.

A "qdm" biologist? Ive heard of biologists working for the qdma, Ive heard of cervid biologists of varying degrees, but a qdm biologist? Never heard of one. What makes one a qdm biologist? Deer steward classes?As to the assumptions, theres alot in your reply as well. Making assumptions about buck age and so on and so forth. Im certainly NOT a biologist but i do have enough industry exposure to connect dots from time to time. Its not rocket science to see that certain options on the table will help deer management from a state, resource, and hunter perspective. OBR is one of them, especially when paired with sound practice to help, as evidenced by pretty widespread use and aforementioned results. If you think that only having one buck tag wont change some of the hunting population cultural thinking, i dont know what to say. Two buck tags is the quickest way to ensuring young bucks get shot. Nothing like waiting on the mack daddy monster pig buck with the second tag after shooting bucky jr. Im personally fine if people want to shoot a young buck. But OBR when used in conjunction with other smart regs/practices is a great way to better manage the resource...which includes those pesky non antler sporting does in much of the state where its needed.

This guy babbles alot. I know because I am an expert in it. So is grow.

I appreciate the input, but I'm not getting into a buck on the bag vs. co-op seed discussion. A medium red clover or a cheap red clover will do just fine in this scenario and that's what I am looking to find cheaply. Not interested in spending $30-35 for a 1/4 acre of clover seed. Plus, if I were wanting a solid dedicated clover stand, something like an Alice and Ladino mix would be cheaper and just as effective as anything WI puts out. Worthy of note, too, if you are planting side by side and doing a comparison, I find that it doesn't really matter because if you plant a whole plot in say Alice, they'll be there eating it. If you planted that whole plot in WI, they'll be there eating it. Preference over one or the other isn't a factor when the other isn't there.