phade

I tend to disagree based on my POV, but that's neither here nor there. Each state works with what it thinks is best (I agree with you on that), but if there's a light bulb idea/system/etc. it is implemented across the board. A good example would be online license sales - every state has some form of it, but different. It's not that they do it different, it's that they all have the same great idea - online licensing. I still think if this were groundbreaking/effective and minimally cost prohibitive, it'd be done somewhere in some capacity for whitetail management. I haven't come across it in any form in my time looking at it. I think such a system become either cost prohibitive, doesn't provide significant increase in capabilities, or a combination of both thereof. I think the best evidence of this is state's like Ohio going away from mandatory reporting/check-in for whitetails and moving toward similar methodology of most states. The problem is I have zero idea where the sweet spot is between the perfect state and the possible state in a real-world situation.

I see where he is going...if you don't have kids, kind of hard to criticize, or criticize accurately/appropriately the parenting of others because you don't have that experience or expertise to make such statements. The rest of it was his exampling of societal use - poor being lazy/stupid, and so on and so forth. I'm 50-50 on that. If you can put yourself in someone elses shoes and think rationally, you can draw some conclusions in certain situations. Other times, you just can understand untill you've been there.

Agreed; but us as a group doing nothing on a bigger scale to enact change is equally as bad.

No I read that. I don't think for a second you should offer that privately in conversation and be done with it...advocacy isn't just telling those two. Start a website (pretty sure you can do that based on your antler mania one, lol), engage the sportsman orgs, etc. Pretty sure very few of the ideas up for suggestion based on hunter input haven't been pushed through similar activities/channels. Just telling two biologists doesn't exactly scream to me that you really believe in it. Heck, even the AR nuts out my way started a website, manned booths, and got petitions on it to force the DEC into some sort of consideration. If you believe it works and are as passionate about it as I interpret you to be, then just telling two biologists is not all that convincing. Otherwise, the apathy you display is precisely why we don't have changes (I'm in the same boat as you in this scenario, so its not a slam on you), because hunters are not accountable to bettering the system even for themselves. If they won't do it, and it should be done, there should be a force behind it, similar to Doc's example about residents getting together on wind farm resistance.

I looked around; I found hints of such a system at certain agencies, but they're almost all draw based scenarios out west, and the "idea" I got from it was more of the herd management on a much higher degree of confidence due to the population numbers/dynamics, like sheep/goats/certain cervids. It was also done on a much smaller geographical scale. The one I remember was Utah and the "once in a lifetime" bull permits. Mandatory whether you hunted or not. The reason I remember it was interestingly enough because they had a general season where reporting wasn't mandatory and instead voluntary - which I presume was also draw based. That is odd as heck to me, but I have to believe there is some rationale. They only poll 25% after looking at it via phone/online survey. I found nothing on the run of the mill whitetail scenario. Most every whitetail state is moving or at the same basic principles we use for reporting.

I've used them for trails in marshes and have built blinds out of them in the past. They work well.

Based on feedback: Location: (County) Name: (clover type) Type: (Red, white, etc.) Annual/Perennial: (obvious answer here) Seeding rate: (lb/acre) Planting date: (spring, fall, month, etc.) Soil Prep/method used: (variety of methods) Soil Type: PH Level/Test Results Growing Conditions/Prior Usage: Ongoing upkeep: (mowing, spraying, fert, etc.) Results: (Great, poor, OK, etc., whatever you desire) Why you like/dislike it: (whatever your thoughts are) Suggestions on where to buy/cost: (tips to help source it) Anything else?

I was searching for some info on a clover variety I was looking to frost seed and got frustrated searching through the various forums, like QDMA, here, etc. when I thought of this. It'd be much simpler to just go through this thread to see what input is available because it'll only contain the "needed" info and likely applicable due to locale. I think I get what you are implying with that comment, however. I'd rather just move back to the original topic, but full disclosure since it was implied, I haven't written a food plot article in several years and do not have any planned. I barely write nowadays because my career has grown to the point that the hobby money I used to generate writing no longer exceeds the value of my free time. I may be in a valley as far as my writing career goes or it may be the beginning of the end for me writing professionally. If I write, it's likely going to be a trapping article or a kill story. And, I most certainly wouldn't create a thread like this to write an article for numerous reasons.

I have grown to hate these days for work reasons. About 1/3 of my department is out for the various related excuses. Some are legit, but a big degree of the pussification of America is in effect.

Exactly - it's the complications that come with a simple, effective, easy solution. Not many of them have taken place in our government. Turns out they aren't so easy, simple, effective as thought. That's why they haven't been implemented anywhere.

We have a solid 14" as of 6-7 this a.m. in the driveway SSW of Roc. I'm sure some of it is windblown, but still snow that needs to be moved.

I think we should work on a thread that we can pin to the top of this forum for some of the more common food plot seeds, clover being one of them. There is likely alot of value in this because we can get alot of "national" info on how certain food plot types perform, but being local to NY, we can get better direct feedback based on experience. I know there are a TON of plotters here, we just don't get much into the details other than back and forth conversations. Was thinking if we may be able to standardize the posts so there's no time lost in pulling/searching info and back and forth talk. We can modify whatever we see fit as a forum. Was thinking example as: Location: (County) Name: (clover type) Type: (Red, white, etc.) Annual/Perennial: (obvious answer here) Seeding rate: (lb/acre) Planting date: (spring, fall, month, etc.) Soil Prep/method used: (variety of methods) Ongoing upkeep: (mowing, spraying, fert, etc.) Results: (Great, poor, OK, etc., whatever you desire) Why you like/dislike it: (whatever your thoughts are) Suggestions on where to buy/cost: (tips to help source it) We can either do this based on seed type or just one thread with all of this info. Anything to add to it or change? Anyone want to take a stab?

We could be if hunters and managers/gov't actually designed a system that works instead of talking about talking about changes to the system, ending up with a mediocre reinvention of its former self year after year, five year plan after five year plan.

We need to hire you two, then. I'm not being argumentative when I say that a solution THAT simple that hasn't been implemented ANYWHERE, and is one that is known (evidenced by DEC respponse), might not actually be as simple or effective as thought. Some agency, somewhere, would have made this change if it were - even in the land of bureaucarcy - some hard charger somewhere would know he could make a name for himself by implementing such a system if it worked and use it for political fodder. There's just as much "what's in it for me" to implement this as there is to not implement it from that perspective. There's not a conspiracy toward this simple idea. The right ideas or systems float to the top regardless of concerns over job security eventually, and this one seems to still be in the toilet. If you guys believe it is that simple and effective, you two should be pushing it in some degree of activism instead of touting how you cover most everything on a forum. And, I mean that wholeheartedly. I don't have all the answers by any stretch. But to say that a simple and effective solution exists and isn't being implemented on a macro scale just seems silly. I don't think there's a simple answer to any of this, in all honesty, in NY.

So every agency in the nation can do this, but they dont. And its all because of penicil pushing and bureacracy?Its not like this is done in other agencies, at least to my knowledge.

And the dnr has stated they wanted to get BACK to the 170k range. They hit the window of the percent they wanted to reduce their herd this year in 9 of 10 zones/co. We cant really do that here now, unless you disagree.

Nobody said anything about all ideas. Just yours that you put forth in this instance, nothing against you. The DEC explains why they dont believe in it. Neither does any other agency.Soooooo.... 1 and 0s? We need to hire you. At certain points, if no movers in the market move...its not the right idea.

You can backtrack alot of it. Back out 45 percent. Then look at bto and wmu harvest numbers. Still leaves some factors but you can get somewhat into them by piecing together the random details in different docs/sources.

Also like saying theres more than fifty wildlife managaement agencies with combined hundreds if not thousands of years of operation. If your simple idea was that good doc, itd be done by now. Simple as that.

my head hurts.

Best of luck in the next part of your career. At the very least you are getting time back in your day with that commute.

Why havent other states done this, if its so easy and perfect of a solution?

Talking with a potential youth/family for it. Will update over the weekend.

That's a wide paintbrush. Not like NYC isn't one of most important business/financial/overnmental cities in the world or anything. I actually thought the number would be higher per inch. fire trucks, emts, business, employment, sanitation...there's alot of impact if you don't plow/salt/sand or do a reduced job at it. Sometimes costs are what they are...a necessary evil.

That's a good idea.