phade

When it comes to clover, no reason to buy WI at all. There's been a bunch of good varieties mentioned. I am a huge fan of Alice and good old fashioned Ladino.

Unrelated, but the way they manage the deer hunting on Montezuma is horrible. I've hunted other NWRs for deer and they all did the same way, $10 or $20 lottery application, specific zones assigned, and two weekend days set aside for hunters to be able to scout their said zones. Worked very efficiently. No reason why Montezuma cant be the same way. The inability to scout there is ridiculous.

The doom and gloom some people have painted about deer drives scare me because I have never ever seen it as such.

I think its darn near mandatory as a kid or a teen growing into the hunting heritage...to participate in a well-planned, organized drive. This drive includes the teen going in sans weapon into the thickest, nastiest undergrowth with hands and knees crawling being necessary, to pop out a lone doe for an old salt to safely shoot. Work, yes. Fun, yes. Value-adding to the hunting experience. Yes. I hope when I get too old to be as mobile and aggressive in my hunting tactics, that some young gun is willing to do the same for me. While I strongly enjoy bowhunting from a treestand, there is something to be said about well-organized and safely executed deer drives with close friends and family in gun season. Kids in hunting these days getting the youth season, and being "bred" to hunt from stands and ground blinds only does nothing but shrink one's experiences at a time it's most critical to development of the hunting passion. When I was a kid, I: participated in deer drives and often was a pusher dragged out deer I didn't shoot learned how to gut often participated in dog running for deer (not my thing now, but I think it's something everyone should experience at least once) barely got sleep the night before the "big" drive looked forward to that breakfast meeting of the hunters...sitting in our B/O camo in the diner, not worrying about scent control listened and learned why and how drives were organized took the lead on organizing a drive or two once they felt I had the grasp of it just flat out enjoyed the camaraderie of it all Given, this was in addition to the traditional learning curve of hunting and reading sign, stand placement, and so on. I just feel that bullet list above has darn near disappeared from the experiences of young hunters today, and it's a shame because they are missing out on valuable knowledge and great experiences.

I've seen deer eat corn out of a gut pile contents. Thought it was crazy, but it's not really when you think about it.

How many moose and elk are you going to shoot in your life? A couple? If more than a couple, then that's a no-brainer. While I'm sure everyone wants to have the best gear possible when going on some hunts, such as elk or moose, I can't see sinking in $1k into a gun that may see a handful of hunts in its lifetime. I doubt you'd need to hunt whitetails with it given the .308. A Ruger American or the Savage with a quality scope (a nice Nikon, Vortex or Leupold) makes more sense. I don't think there's a person here who would be uncomfortable going on a quality hunt with that set-up. For me, if I were to sink $ into a gun, it's going to be the gun I have in my hands most often (a deer gun). I understand collector differences to that effect, but for a gun that I plan to kill something with...I'm sinking the money in to what I will be hunting with the most. Given your age, I'd go the more cost-effective route and sock it into a bank account or some other interest/appreciation bearing account and let it be until you need to buy the gun for the hunt. I may have missed it, but you didn't say you had a hunt lined up.

NYE has never been about food in our house/circle. More about fine drinkage, maybe a nice cigar. Food was snack type stuff, pizza, etc.

The length of this thread is impressive. Carry on.

False Grow talks enough for the ladies. Love you grow...

I got to see a large apple farm here up close and personal when it was bad. And, it was bad. This year, it was good...very very good. They aren't exactly swimming in the cash as a result of the boom season, that's for sure. And this is one of the more prominent farms in Wayne Co.

Got to recoup losses from last year somehow.

Ethics and morality are no doubt important. The problem with it all is summed up by a line one of my professors told me that struck a chord. He said: "People are messy." Once you realize that, ethics and morality or lack thereof, won't surprise or disappoint you. Hunting is not unlike any other career, or hobby, or passion. Part of it involves ethics/moralities to a high degree (sporting, sharing harvest, getting people into the sport) and sometimes at the same time, an intense competition (mature bucks). What you see play out is the balance of the two.

I'm probably in the minority as you posted who hasn't had a run in with you...generally speaking we converse normally, even if our views differ on said topic. Some people just don't get along with other people and that's life and you have to work around it somehow. Hope you figure out the solution without getting perma-banned or you taking the self-imposed step of leaving. I bash internet heads with several people here. A few of them I've met after the fact and a few I think I'd get along with fine in real-life despite not agreeing on much. No biggie...you just have to find that way around the problem you/whoever have/has. Good luck Shawn...don't let this one get out of control more and get you sent on a vaca.

Antlers are amazing pieces of anatomy. To be honest, there's a lot of debate that goes into it. I'm not into the biological reasoning, but my understanding is that stressors can cause a buck to shed early. I've also seen based on my observations and also readings of people who have studied the topic that some bucks as they mature, tend to drop relatively about the same time each year, given "non-stressing conditions."

I pulled a cam and got a ton of small bucks with fresh clean pedicles between 12/9 and 12/17. None of the bucks were of any size, but surprised at the number. The early cold and snow stressed them I bet.

Same reason food plot seed has gone up. Even Welters has some price increases. My vegetable garden has shrunk is successive years due to a lack of time to invest into them, but I always make sure I have a few tomato plants, some carrots, potatoes, peas, and beans in the ground. My strawberry patch has dwindled down to darn near nothing, and I may shut it down altogether this season. As the dog days of summer hit, I seem to get busier, so I like the low-maintenance veggies or at least the cool season ones that produce and peter out before the heat of summer gets here.

Welcome and agreed on finding access in those areas. Very, very tough for a reason. I'd probably opt for a different strategy than going door to door in those towns first. I'd first and foremost try to find access in a place more likely to get it (say Wheatland/Scottsville/Caledonia/Avon/York, etc. and etc.). That way, you can at least get one place to hunt locked down (meaning green light to hunt). Then, focus on the hard areas you seem intent on hunting. It may prove a long road to open a door there, hence why I suggest starting in equally as close places to you where the odds are marginally better. I'd hate to see you get all of the doors shut in your face and not have a place settled until the last second or not at all. Leases in Mendon and Rush go for big money and are not often available. Ground I hunt on in Mendon was offered a lease just this year, unsolicited of $3,500 for well under a hundred acres, and I mean a well under a hundred acres. I wouldn't be surprise if some high-income person would be willing to shell out $5k for it, honestly. I know of other bigger parcel in Rush leasing for $5-6k a year. Those two areas have good hunting no doubt, but good hunting is available outside that area, too. It's just that the combo of development, high income, and ever-shrinking land ownership sizes lead to the increase in competition and it gets bought by those who can pay to buy/lease it (doctors, attorneys, high-level business people) or it stays within very confined small groups who know the landowner and mum is the word.

if I could say what the two toughest areas to.get permission...mendon then rush on top of the list. not saying impossible, but you are better off asking in scottsville or caledonia or the like...and those areas are tough too but more land and less money/income levels. im lucky enough to hunt in a nice spots in those towns, but nothing short of a miracle have opened those doors.

True story. First deer I ever killed was shot on a dead run at 75 yds and I went 3 for 3 hitting him on a gun I never shot before. I was a kid and the gun was handed to me short notice (night before) after an issue with mine popped up that couldn't be fixed right away. Double beaded 870 smoothbore. Shot 1...high and back...shot 2, entered between the ear and the pedicle and out the opposite ear. shot three...right in the chest cavity (probably not needed as it flipped ended over end three times from shot 2). I just needed to anchor him with that third shot or he was without a doubt, going to get away. I'm not bragging though, I promise. Later that day, I missed a doe three times at 30 yards. I kept killing the same sapling over and over and didn't know it. Sometimes people make too much out of hypothetical ethical issues in which the world is a shade of gray. Very little is black and white. All I know is that day hooked me on hunting forever. Big picture.

Great, so I supposed you don't bird hunt either?

Never heard of rolling tires downhill or pulleys?

A slow-walking (not even walking really, that slow gait they have) deer with a bow...that's a topic for discussion, lol. I'm zipping my lips on that.

That deer would die. I haven't seen any paralyzed deer around. Have you?

And sometimes, it's not enough. Perfection in hunting doesn't exist very often, let alone all of the time...the people here moaning about these great shots would cringe at shots taken by vaunted people like Fred Bear. Yes, do what you can, in reason. The problem is, everyone's definitions are different, yet we judge based on ours alone.

Seems kind of lopsided...shouldn't that be any deer and not just a nice buck? Wounding a deer with a bad shot will happen sooner or later as the law of averages creep up. If a hunter says he hasn't taken a bad shot a time or two in his "career" he's either not hunted long enough or he's lying to himself. Four deer with a bow is nothing. I've had more than four deer run longer than 50 yds with two lungs popped. I've also dropped deer with questionable shots. At the time my brain processed it, it was fine. Looking back, I learned from it.