wolc123

It is easy to get frustrated with this situation, but I do not think it has got worse lately. We all hear about it more because of social media. I give the folks credit who have the guts to post their mistakes and seek help from others on the internet. Some lack the courage to do that (as we have just heard in this thread a few times), preferring to hide their shame rather than risk looking weak in front of strangers. There is a simple, sure-fire way out of this deal. Figure out who controls the fate of all living things and stay on good terms (Hint : Mathew 10: 29-31). I have recovered every deer that I have shot at over the last 12 seasons, usually within a half hour, and never in over an hour. I make no claim on being a super-hunter however. All of the credit goes to He who placed those blessings upon me. The last thing I would want to do is let those blessings go to waste. There is more than a little bit of antler idolitry going on for sure, and that does not help the situation. It is good to see a few of the regulars here finally waking up to that this season. I only shoot at deer that I am at least 90 % sure that I can hit and recover, and I am extremely thankful that He has given me the extra 10% that I would have surely lost on my own. I don't get all that many chances, and it takes about (4) average-sized deer to keep my family well fed from one season to the next.

Congrats, That is awesome. Buttons are the best, especially on the table. My wife and daughters practically beg me to shoot one every year. It has been about 6 years since I was able to get that done, but we have been blessed with a few thru the kindness of others through that drought. A buddy from work shot a nice one for us last year on opening day, and a hit-and run motorist left one at the end of our driveway two seasons before that. They have been successfully avoiding me lately, but my first bow buck was also a button, along with my first gun buck as well as the only deer I ever killed in the Southern zone late ML season. I hope you saved the liver. They are especially tasty and tender compared to those from older deer.

With high winds, the umbrella might not be of much help, but if you can set it up on the downwind side of a large diameter tree, it might do ok. I have three blinds made from old truck caps that work good in those conditions. I shot a big doe out of one last season on opening day after the wind and rain picked up in the afternoon. Two of those are made from construction-style caps. They have an enclosed lower deck and an open top, upper deck built on the ladder rack for fair-weather conditions. I killed my crossbow buck from the upper deck of the one over at my folks place last Friday. My tree umbrella did not work out so good on a rainy day up in the Northern zone last season but the problem I had with it was caused more by the hammock style seat that I strapped to the tree below it. The water flowed down the tree, filling the seat and soaking me from the bottom up, while my top stayed dry. I will use a free-standing stool with it next time (cost $7 at Aldis). Aldis also had pop-up blinds for $30 that would probably work better than a tree umbrella in high winds and rain.

It is easier for me to skin them that way, especially when the hide is cool. I do flip them over and hang from hooks in the tendons after removing the feet, head, and hide. That little $5 Harbor Freight block and tackle struggled on this one, I thought the rope was going to break. It works great on anything under 160 pounds or so. I may need to invest in one of them electric winches like you have.

I was very thankful that I only had to lift the fat 190 pound field-dressed buck (per the PA chest girth measurement table at a 43" chest girth) that I killed last Friday afternoon up about 8 " to get it onto one of those on the back of my wife's Toyota mini-van last Friday night. Lifting the front half up, then the back was not too bad. He is aging comfortably in our insulated garage right now. The weather is perfect for that. The temperature has been averaging about 35 F in there per the wall thermometer. I open the window at night to let in cool air, and close it and cover it by day. The hide will come off on Saturday night and he will be processed Sunday night. Ten days of aging is perfect to get the all rigor mortis out of a 2-1/2 year old, but nine should get most of it. According to that same chart, he should yield 103 pounds of meat, but I usually trim out most of the sinew and fat and he looks to have lots of that so I will be thankful if I end up with about 80 pounds. I was also thankful to not need the old "deer fridge" (visible on the left side of the photo this year). My younger daughter named him "taco". He should keep her well supplied with those for quite a while.

Genny Scotch Ale and Whitetail Tenderloin

I hope they never go with a one buck rule, but I would not mind seeing the AR's as long as it was 3 points on a side. 4 points on a side would be a deal-breaker for me. The thing I like best about those AR's, is that they should help safety by forcing hunters to be more sure of their targets before shooting. In theory, that should reduce hunting accidents. I would only go for them though, if evidence could be produced from states or areas that already have them, that they do reduce accidents. I have not shot a buck with less than 3 points on at least one side in many years, so such an AR rule would have no effect on my own style, but might keep others and myself from getting shot by mistake. In addition, I would like to see it go to 3 bucks, for those who buy an archery, regular, and ML licence.

Nope, as a pure meat hunter, the plan is coming together like clockwork right now. If it ain't broke don't fix it. One more average-sized deer should get us plenty to last for another year, and I still have all of gun season and late ML. The slob I killed with my crossbow on Friday was so heavy (according to the PA "how much meat will you get" chart that someone posted based on chest girth measurement), that we probably have enough now. If it gets tight around September or October next year, I may have to put the kids on half rations. They have already named the fat slob hanging out in our garage "Taco". I will go out now and fetch the tenderloins for lunch with my oldest daughter, before her sister and mother get home from the in-laws place in the Adirondacks. Reading a couple pages from the Bible each morning before leaving the house, and every so often up in the stand, pays off in spades. I guess I could use a plan to fill some antlerless tags however. Full inclusion of Crossbow would help a ton with that, but the anti's will probably manage to hold that off until hell freezes over.

My prayers are with you Upstate.

I am going to try with some dmps today, for the last time with my crossbow this year. No luck finding my rope-pulley device yesterday after loosing it Friday night. I did not think my finger tendons could take drawing that crossbow again, so a "field expediency" was made this morning involving a couple short lengths of chain, some hinge pins, a couple grab hooks, and some duct tape. It works like a champ, and is much faster than the rope-pulley device for drawing the crossbow. It may even allow for a "double" if a group shows up. Fat chance of that however, because in four seasons, I have yet to have a single antlerless deer in range during crossbow season. It will be intersting to see if the fixed muzzys will put them down inside of 40 yards as has the 3 bladed mechanicals on the bucks I shot in three of the last 4 years.

I do not think it has gotten worse thru the years. We just hear about it more now, due to social media. This problem has always existed and may have been worse in the old days. Improvements in technology have helped a bit. I remember taking a few informal surveys during archery season, among friends, coworkers, classmates in school, etc, more than 30 years ago. For a few consecutive years, the numbers on shots came out like this: For every deer that was recovered, there was one that was missed, and two that were lost and not found. I lost a few myself back then myself, which is why I started doing those surveys. On the years when I lost a deer that I had shot at (I have yet to miss one clean), I considered that my archery deer for the season, even if I could not find it. I stopped hunting archery for the rest of those seasons. There was no way I could be certain those deer survived and I felt I did not deserve to kill more than one deer in a season. I am fairly certain three of those survived, as they were struck in the shoulder blade, with no penetration. One was actually killed by a friend with a shotgun slug a month later and my old arrow wound was just a big healed-over scar. I am certain that the one I hit too far back did not make it however. A real problem is the careless hunters who just kept right on sticking them and not finding them, until they are finally able to recover one. I remember a few that may have struck 3 or 4 in a single season. Even now, I see a lot of bad advice given, telling folks who post about not being able to recover a deer, to get right back out there and give it another try the next day or weekend. I think those folks should sit it out the rest of the season, take some time to think about what they have done, and wait for gun to open to "give it another try" That may sound a little harsh but that is the best way to learn from mistakes, and to force folks to get better. I also see "clean misses" as worse than hits that are not recovered, because those arrows are further from the kill zone. Anyone who does miss a deer clean should also be done for the season. Spend the rest of it at the target range, get better, and try again the next year. If you are missing deer clean, you are likely to wound two before you kill one clean. The non-vital area on a deer is more than double the size of the vital area.

I had a similar experience today and yesterday. My folks had been watching a big, 2.5 year old 6 point and a little 1.5 year old 4 point hanging out together all summer at their place. Yesterday afternoon, the big one offered me shot (see crossbow harvest thread) but his rack was busted up and he was down to 5 points left. If the 4 would have showed up first, he would have taken the bolt instead at this point in the season. He did show up this morning, while I was over there looking for a doe, the rope pulley I lost, and my bolt. It won't bother me too much if a bigger one shows up this afternoon or tomorrow (my last days to hunt archery season), but that has not happened to me after punching a tag in the 35 years that I have been hunting deer. Admittedly, the effort I put in drops way off after my buck tag is filled, which probably has a lot to do with it. Where the heck are all the does? I am still waiting to christen my crossbow on one of those. Even a tasty button buck would be good. Either one would give us enough venison to make it thru until next year at this point.

I think it may be just about ready to start in zone 9F right now, and this is about a week later than normal. The fat 2-1/2 year old 5 point that I killed yesterday afternoon had a busted up rack, indicating that he has been doing some fighting. My folks watched him feeding on clover and winter wheat, for about 5 minutes, before he wandered over to my stand. Usually they do not waste much time on that, after they start chasing. He was still carrying a lot of weight in the hind quarters also (see photo in crossbow harvest thread), which usually dwindles way down by late rut. Fat behinds are a good indication of pre-rut.

I am sort of thankful that I will not have a problem with that decision this morning. Normally, I do not hunt the same stand on consecutive hunts, but I must have left the draw pulley device on the upper deck of the two-story blind over at my folks place yesterday afternoon. I used it there to redraw my crossbow after putting a bolt thru a fat 5-pointer (about 10 minutes before sunset), just in case a finishing shot was required. I was planning on trying to fill a dmp today and now I know where I need to go. Fortunately, my little entry level 300 fps crossbow is not overly difficult to draw by hand, without the pulley device in case it is lost. I always seem to loose something when I kill a deer in the late afternoon and don't finish gutting them until after it is dark.

For all your selfless sacrifices. I will again offer one the best stand on our farm next Saturday for the gun-opener. There could not be a better time of year or reason for a federal holiday than today's.

Are you sure that was a crossbow arrow ? In the photo you posted of the back section, you could not see the knock. I have never heard of anyone using an aluminum arrow with a crossbow. Maybe it was from a vertical bow with an overdraw. They use real short arrows, similar to crossbow bolts. Nonetheless, I agree with you that practice is very important, even with crossbows. A good friend told me yesterday, about a nice buck he lost with his this year.

This has been a crazy weather season so far for sure. Too warm early, monsoon rains last Sunday, and too cold today. UP until this afternoon, after a day in the NZ with my crossbow, 2 days up there with my ML, 3 with my rifle, and 2 days back home with my crossbow, I had only seen (3) deer and all were way out of range for the weapon I carried. Finally this afternoon at my folks place in zone 9F, a fat 2-1/2 year old busted-up 5 point became the first deer to offer me a shot this season, with my crossbow. He took off after I shot, but I thought I heard him crash. I said a quick prayer, that I could find him before dark. The Man upstairs came thru for us again, and I saw the buck's white belly and tail hair laying at the other side of the woods (about 40 yards away), before I even looked for the blood trail. It looks like there is a lot of meat on this one, but a doe or two would help see us thru until next year, so I will probably try and work on my (4) DMP's tomorrow and Sunday. I had a feeling it might be needed tonight, so I threw the cargo carrier on the back of my wife's minivan before driving over there. That was my third antlered buck with my crossbow, over 4 seasons, but I have yet to take a shot at an antlerless deer with it. IT looks like there are two hunting days left for me this year to make it happen.

This 2-1/2 year old, busted up 5-point with a 15-1/2" inside spread and 43" chest girth offered me a 30 yard shot at 4:45 this afternoon in zone 9F, over at my folks place. The Barnett Recruit got it done again this year. I heard him crash, about 40 yards away. I waited about 15 minutes, and then decided to go after him in the fading light. I saw the white hair on his belly and tail, before I even looked for a blood trail. I had just enough sunlight left to get the guts out of him. The butt-out worked well. The bolt passed thru a little farther back than I intended, mid level, and just ahead of the diaphram. I will have to see if I can find it tomorrow. I used my last 125 gr, 3-blade mechanical, o-ring style broadhead on him. I will have to pick up some more of those before next season, but will probably go after does on Sat and Sunday with a few fixed,125 gr, 3-blade Muzzys that I have left. They fly pretty true from my crossbow out to 40 yards.

Wow, according to that chart the 2-1/2 year old, busted up 5-point with a 15-1/2" inside spread and 43" chest girth that I killed this afternoon should yield over 100 pounds of venison and weigh 182 field-dressed. I think that is wishful thinking. I guessed it at 175. It did strain the beam out in the garage and was rather difficult to hoist up with my cheap little block and tackle however. I think I might get 80 pounds of boneless out of it, because it looks like there will be a lot of fat that needs trimming away. With all the rain we had this year, they sure have been eating good.

The last deer I took with my vertical bow (about 5 years ago) was struck in the jugular and piled up dead 40 yards away. That is not where I aimed. That is the main reason why I will probably not hunt with a vertical bow again. Shooting at an alert deer with a bow is almost a guarantee that it will not be in the same place when the arrow arrives as it was when it was launched. That is the main reason why I support full inclusion of the crossbow in archery season. Eliminating the need to make a draw with a deer in close greatly reduces the odds of shooting at an alert deer. It is not always easy to tell if a deer is alert. That said though, I would never want to stop others from using compounds, recurves or longbows if they wish. The weapon they choose is none of my concern. Mistakes can and do happen with any weapon. Some do reduce your odds of making them however. I see less mistakes as a good thing, when it comes to making a clean kill on a deer, and that is always my primary concern. As long as there are folks who place more weight on challenging themselves, than on making a clean kill, we will continue to see pictures like that.

I would like to see those who buy a bow, regular, and ML licence get (3) buck tags.

I think the part you are missing about the range advantage of the crossbow concerns firing it from a rest and with a scope. When fired offhand, it does not have any significant range advantage, and quite possibly has a disadvantage compared to a modern compound bow. The rest adds a whole new dimension however. Have you ever tried shooting a target offhand with a bb gun, using open sights, then tried it from a rest and with a scope at the same range ? What groups are tighter ? Those tighter groups at close range translate to tighter groups at long range, do they not ? This is a common misunderstanding by bowhunters, who lack any experience with a crossbow. They usually fail to grasp the importance of a rest on accuracy. It does not take a lot of effort to equip a treestand with a rest. Most ladder stands have them anyhow. What is basically just a "safety rail" for a bowhunter is also an integral part of long range accuracy with a crossbow. It is easy to understand why "string-jump" is not a concern beyond 40 yards while shooting at a non-alert deer. I would not take another shot at a deer over 50 yards with my own 300 fps crossbow, but I would have no problem up to that range, as long as the deer was standing and not alert, if I had a 370 or so fps model. Two weeks only does not justify the additional expense of such a model for me at this time however. Maybe full inclusion will happen next year. As soon as it does, I will upgrade a bit.

Would you like to see year round hunting and trapping of coyotes in NY ? On one hand, they do help control the deer population, which probably does save a few human lives. On the other hand, they make it tougher for humans to harvest the deer and eat them. I would prefer to see year round hunting of coyotes, coupled with the opening up of more urban areas to deer hunting with crossbows and vertical bows. That would be a far better way of controlling deer populations, that would also help feed people and be a little easier on some of their pets.

I guess I can't fault you Jamoke, for not buying my own "one shot" experience, with a shot over 40 yards at a deer with a crossbow. How about this guy who claims to be the most experienced crossbow hunter on this forum. We have some history here and I have never known him to "stretch" the truth. Again, please come back when and if you come up with any real evidence that backs up your outlandish claim. My guess is that it is based on a high-school/college understanding of physics, where you have calculated how far a deer could move at long range in the time it takes an arrow to cover the distance. I agree that they can cover plenty of distance to cause a complete miss. What you are lacking though, is the fact that if they do not start that movement, by sensing the danger and flinching, then it is exactly the same as shooting at a paper target. Does not one of Newtons laws state that a body at rest will remain at rest unless acted upon by a force ?

You offered no evidence that deer react to a bow or crossbow launching an arrow at a range of over 40 yards. The reason you do not have evidence of that is that there simply is not any available. Do you think deer "jump" when a branch falls off a tree 40 yards away. It sounds to me like you are completely lacking in any experience with a bow or crossbow at such a range. Come back when and if you get some. "Hearsay" adds no value to this forum. My experience is limited, but it is there. Check out the picture in the heart shot section if you are in doubt.