wolc123

This has been a crazy weather season so far for sure. Too warm early, monsoon rains last Sunday, and too cold today. UP until this afternoon, after a day in the NZ with my crossbow, 2 days up there with my ML, 3 with my rifle, and 2 days back home with my crossbow, I had only seen (3) deer and all were way out of range for the weapon I carried. Finally this afternoon at my folks place in zone 9F, a fat 2-1/2 year old busted-up 5 point became the first deer to offer me a shot this season, with my crossbow. He took off after I shot, but I thought I heard him crash. I said a quick prayer, that I could find him before dark. The Man upstairs came thru for us again, and I saw the buck's white belly and tail hair laying at the other side of the woods (about 40 yards away), before I even looked for the blood trail. It looks like there is a lot of meat on this one, but a doe or two would help see us thru until next year, so I will probably try and work on my (4) DMP's tomorrow and Sunday. I had a feeling it might be needed tonight, so I threw the cargo carrier on the back of my wife's minivan before driving over there. That was my third antlered buck with my crossbow, over 4 seasons, but I have yet to take a shot at an antlerless deer with it. IT looks like there are two hunting days left for me this year to make it happen.

This 2-1/2 year old, busted up 5-point with a 15-1/2" inside spread and 43" chest girth offered me a 30 yard shot at 4:45 this afternoon in zone 9F, over at my folks place. The Barnett Recruit got it done again this year. I heard him crash, about 40 yards away. I waited about 15 minutes, and then decided to go after him in the fading light. I saw the white hair on his belly and tail, before I even looked for a blood trail. I had just enough sunlight left to get the guts out of him. The butt-out worked well. The bolt passed thru a little farther back than I intended, mid level, and just ahead of the diaphram. I will have to see if I can find it tomorrow. I used my last 125 gr, 3-blade mechanical, o-ring style broadhead on him. I will have to pick up some more of those before next season, but will probably go after does on Sat and Sunday with a few fixed,125 gr, 3-blade Muzzys that I have left. They fly pretty true from my crossbow out to 40 yards.

Wow, according to that chart the 2-1/2 year old, busted up 5-point with a 15-1/2" inside spread and 43" chest girth that I killed this afternoon should yield over 100 pounds of venison and weigh 182 field-dressed. I think that is wishful thinking. I guessed it at 175. It did strain the beam out in the garage and was rather difficult to hoist up with my cheap little block and tackle however. I think I might get 80 pounds of boneless out of it, because it looks like there will be a lot of fat that needs trimming away. With all the rain we had this year, they sure have been eating good.

The last deer I took with my vertical bow (about 5 years ago) was struck in the jugular and piled up dead 40 yards away. That is not where I aimed. That is the main reason why I will probably not hunt with a vertical bow again. Shooting at an alert deer with a bow is almost a guarantee that it will not be in the same place when the arrow arrives as it was when it was launched. That is the main reason why I support full inclusion of the crossbow in archery season. Eliminating the need to make a draw with a deer in close greatly reduces the odds of shooting at an alert deer. It is not always easy to tell if a deer is alert. That said though, I would never want to stop others from using compounds, recurves or longbows if they wish. The weapon they choose is none of my concern. Mistakes can and do happen with any weapon. Some do reduce your odds of making them however. I see less mistakes as a good thing, when it comes to making a clean kill on a deer, and that is always my primary concern. As long as there are folks who place more weight on challenging themselves, than on making a clean kill, we will continue to see pictures like that.

I would like to see those who buy a bow, regular, and ML licence get (3) buck tags.

I think the part you are missing about the range advantage of the crossbow concerns firing it from a rest and with a scope. When fired offhand, it does not have any significant range advantage, and quite possibly has a disadvantage compared to a modern compound bow. The rest adds a whole new dimension however. Have you ever tried shooting a target offhand with a bb gun, using open sights, then tried it from a rest and with a scope at the same range ? What groups are tighter ? Those tighter groups at close range translate to tighter groups at long range, do they not ? This is a common misunderstanding by bowhunters, who lack any experience with a crossbow. They usually fail to grasp the importance of a rest on accuracy. It does not take a lot of effort to equip a treestand with a rest. Most ladder stands have them anyhow. What is basically just a "safety rail" for a bowhunter is also an integral part of long range accuracy with a crossbow. It is easy to understand why "string-jump" is not a concern beyond 40 yards while shooting at a non-alert deer. I would not take another shot at a deer over 50 yards with my own 300 fps crossbow, but I would have no problem up to that range, as long as the deer was standing and not alert, if I had a 370 or so fps model. Two weeks only does not justify the additional expense of such a model for me at this time however. Maybe full inclusion will happen next year. As soon as it does, I will upgrade a bit.

Would you like to see year round hunting and trapping of coyotes in NY ? On one hand, they do help control the deer population, which probably does save a few human lives. On the other hand, they make it tougher for humans to harvest the deer and eat them. I would prefer to see year round hunting of coyotes, coupled with the opening up of more urban areas to deer hunting with crossbows and vertical bows. That would be a far better way of controlling deer populations, that would also help feed people and be a little easier on some of their pets.

I guess I can't fault you Jamoke, for not buying my own "one shot" experience, with a shot over 40 yards at a deer with a crossbow. How about this guy who claims to be the most experienced crossbow hunter on this forum. We have some history here and I have never known him to "stretch" the truth. Again, please come back when and if you come up with any real evidence that backs up your outlandish claim. My guess is that it is based on a high-school/college understanding of physics, where you have calculated how far a deer could move at long range in the time it takes an arrow to cover the distance. I agree that they can cover plenty of distance to cause a complete miss. What you are lacking though, is the fact that if they do not start that movement, by sensing the danger and flinching, then it is exactly the same as shooting at a paper target. Does not one of Newtons laws state that a body at rest will remain at rest unless acted upon by a force ?

You offered no evidence that deer react to a bow or crossbow launching an arrow at a range of over 40 yards. The reason you do not have evidence of that is that there simply is not any available. Do you think deer "jump" when a branch falls off a tree 40 yards away. It sounds to me like you are completely lacking in any experience with a bow or crossbow at such a range. Come back when and if you get some. "Hearsay" adds no value to this forum. My experience is limited, but it is there. Check out the picture in the heart shot section if you are in doubt.

Damn, that reminds me that I need to pick up one of them back tag holders. I had been hunting the northern zone for a couple of weeks, so I did not worry about it. I could not find one in the house last weekend, for my first southern zone hunt. I ended up sticking my tag in an automobile insurance card holder, and hooking it to my jacket with a couple of safety pins. It looks like they held, and should get me thru tomorrow's hunt anyhow. The reason they require them in the Southern zone, but not the Northern, probably has to do with hunter density. Tresspassing issues are a bigger problem in the Southern zone and that tag provides a means for others to record the number, much like license plates on cars. Just knowing that they can be turned in by others for violations, probably causes folks to "play by the rules" a little better. Up north, those "others" are so few and far between, that it is less of a factor.

I always try to get that done by Labor day weekend. The main reason I do that is because it bothers me a bit when I am hunting during late archery season, and hear the sounds of the neighbors sighting in their deer guns. It bothers me because I have rarely seen any deer activity while that is going on. It really sucks when they keep shooting right up until sundown. It makes me think they are lazy procastinators, which is not cool. I would prefer to not subject others to that same aggravation. This is also one of the reasons that I now do most of my target practice, year round, with bb guns. The main reason for that is "real" ammo cost savings. I used to use my .22 rimfire for that, until that stuff got expensive and hard to find. The relative silence of the bb guns is a nice added bonus. I can shoot them all day, right off the back porch, and the neighbors hear nothing. If some type of scheduling conflict, malfunction, or weather conditions, prevented me from getting a deer gun sighted earlier, then I would certainly do it right up to the day before the opener, rather than hunt with a gun I was not certain of. I will also not skimp again on the number of shots I use while sighting, and settle for a zero not quite where I want it. Last year that caused a doe a little extra suffering, when my first shot struck her a few inches higher than I intended. A second shot was required to finish her. Using a little more ammo on the range is well worth the cost to prevent bad hits (or misses) later, when it really counts. So the bottom line is, shoot early if you can, but if you can't, still shoot. I don't think you are over thinking it. It is not all about you. Think about the folks out there hunting right now. You will never go wrong by putting the interests of others, especially those from whom you expect nothing in return, ahead of your own. Also, imagine you are a big old buck bedded down in some thick cover and waiting to get up and eat a few acorns. Just as you are about to rise, you hear a series of loud bangs. You might decide to wait until after dark after hearing that, especially if you had a bad experience with a hunter at about this time on the year prior. I don't think those big bucks are quite as dumb as some folks think.

I think the number of hunters in NY has been declining for the last decade or so. The number of coyotes has been increasing over that period. It all comes down to how long is "too long". A year round open hunting and trapping season on coyotes would push that out a little further, don't you agree ? Maybe you are one of those who believes that if more coyotes are killed, they will more than make up for the losses by having larger litters and actually increase in number. I have heard that argument a few times in the past. Are you against a year round open season on coyotes in NY ? Also, what does an average week-old fawn weigh, and how many pounds of meat do coyotes consume per week on average? Certainly the vast majority of deer that coyotes kill are fawns. It would not be too far of a stretch to assume that an adult coyote could kill 7 fawns in a week. If hunters killed more deer and coyotes killed less, there would be more "surplus" for them to donate to the hunters feeding the hungry program. Does that make sense to you now.

About a year ago, someone posted a poll in the bowhunting section on this site that asked if folks preferred no crossbows in archery, leaving it two weeks only, or full inclusion. The poll lasted a week or so, until it magically disappeared. At the time it went away, the total in favor of full inclusion was running about double that in favor of leaving it two weeks only. I can only assume that did not fit someones agenda, which is why it disappeared. At this time, I would not be surprised to see a 3:1 advantage in favor of full inclusion, because of folks like you. There will always be selfish, elitist holdouts however. Try as they may, they can not stop the aging process. Eventually, all of them will come around. If not, there is always Oregon.

Where did you see me use those numbers ? There are two "happy" times a year, when their main diet could be deer. That would be fawning time and post-rut.

My money is on that being a broken arrow from a vertical bow and not a bolt from a crossbow for three reasons: First, I have hunted that area for more than 35 years and have found around a half dozen that had similar broken arrow sections in them, prior to the legalization of crossbows (3) years ago. Second, I don't know of anyone who uses aluminum bolts in their crossbows, they all use carbon. Third, a high hit is often the result of string jump caused by shooting at an "alert" deer that caught a glimpse of the hunter's draw. That draw motion is not needed with a crossbow. You did the right thing for taking him out though, and thanks for doing that. The last time I did it was about 10 years ago when I could have shot a 4 pointer right under my stand with my slug gun, but opted for a longer shot at an eight pointer instead. I regretted that move a bit when I butchered him and cut my hand and lost some chops from the broadhead that was imbedded in "no-mans" land, above the spine.

Have you ever shot at a deer with a vertical bow or a crossbow at over 40 yards ? That is beyond the "danger zone" in which a deer will react to the sound of a bow's release. I killed my first crossbow buck at 59 yards and he never moved until the bolt pierced his heart. The last move he made on his own was a fall to the ground, about 40 yards from where he had stood when hit. I would be interested in knowing what your basis for that claim is ? I might just be "nuts" though, according to a few others here.

I am hoping and praying that you find that one Grow.

The primary reason I bought one was to increase my efficiency at killing and recovering deer. In 30 years of bowhunting, I never missed a deer, but I was not satisfied with a recovery rate of about 70 %. I do not remember all the details of those that I recovered, but I will never be able to forget the ones that I lost. Not being able to recover wounded deer is about the only aspect of hunting that has really bothered in the past. I am extremely thankful that it has not happened in 13 years and the crossbow has played big part in that. The main variable that the crossbow gives me better control over is the mood of the deer when the arrow/bolt is released. Every bad hit I made with a vertical bow was due in part to "string-jump". String jump is of no concern when the deer is not in an "alert" mood. Both bucks I killed with my crossbow had no clue what hit them until the bolts pierced their hearts. The act of drawing a vertical bow with a deer in close is often what causes them to switch to an "alert" mood. There is no need for that fast motion with the crossbow. It can be slowly moved into position in full view of the deer without causing it to go alert. It is much easier to hit a target that is in the same place when the arrow arrives as it was when launched. Even though the crossbow appeared to offer much greater efficiency, I probably would not have forked over the $250 for an entry level package, had not I just had some major surgery that put me under some big-time physical restrictions. That limited how much weight I could draw with a vertical bow. Crossbows were legalized at the same time. The "last two weeks only" deal may have prevented this purchase were it not for the physical restrictions I was under at the time. It all worked out very well however. I am very satisfied with the cheap crossbow I bought. It's light weight, compact size, ease of handling, and smooth trigger are especially appreciated (Barnett Recruit compound crossbow). Some of the folks who are complaining about their bulky, fast, expensive, unwieldy models ought to give this one a try. It handles almost as easy as my Ruger 10/22 carbine. Hopefully I can keep it's 100% record on deer intact this weekend.

It is common to not get blood trails with rifles, especially relatively fast ones with lighter bullets. The main reason for that is that those bullets often transfer all of their energy to the deer. They are designed for that purpose. To do that, they have to stay in the carcass. If they blow all the way thru, you might get a blood trail from the exit wound, but some energy is wasted. If you want an exit wound and a better blood trail, consider a slower, heavier bullet/rifle like a 45/70 or 35 Rem. There might be something to just a little more dia (.03" or so.) All three that I have shot with my 30/06 have dropped dead in their tracks, right where they were hit. The 150 grain bullets stayed inside the first two, struck from the side at longer range. Not a drop of blood came out of either of those, until I gutted them. I did get a lengthwise, back to front pass thru on the last one, from 50 yards, and that one left a pretty good sized puddle of blood on the snow from the exit wound, at the front of the neck.

You got my vote for post of the year so far. The weather is almost perfect for hanging now. If you let that carcass hang in the garage for a week or so, with the hide on (after pulling the tenderloins), the butterfly chops made from the backstraps, will melt in your mouth. You might never want to use a buck tag on a pope & young again after that.

There are two "happy times" each year for the coyotes. The first is the weeks after fawns are dropped in the late spring/early summer. It is easy to understand why this is the time when most deer are consumed by coyotes. The second happy time provides more pounds of venison from far less deer. That would be post-rut when the bucks are at their weakest. Most hunters have seen a rutted out buck struggle to keep up with a group of does and yearling fawns. It is no wonder that they are the first to be taken down by the coyotes at that time. Mature does are also at their strongest and fastest at that time. That is no coincedence, but a simple law of nature that is necessary to insure the survival of the species. I would like to see NY state open up coyote hunting and trapping season year round. If they do not, it probably will not be too long until the coyotes kill more deer every year than hunters do. That seems to be a shame, with so many folks struggling to get enough food. Look at the food lines at urban homeless shelters and so forth. Why have fat coyotes and hungry people ?

The NY restrictions currently include a minimum uncocked width and a maximum draw weight. I believe that the higher speed models you are referencing exceed the maximum allowable draw weight in NY. The draw weight is a critical component of achieving high speed, much more so than the uncocked width, so that should be included in your research.

Maybe you are onto something. It looks like near-perfect hanging weather after today, for as far as the long range forecast goes. I like hanging them with the hide on for a week or so in the garage, a lot better than skinning them right away, cutting them in half, and hanging them in the "deer fridge".

MEAT