wolc123

SailHud25, Those long shots were taken at this buck in 2014, from up on a ridge while he stood down in a valley, at least a hundred feet lower in elevation. There was snow, which made it easy to see him as he approached from over a mile away. There were only a few branches extending out from the side of the ridge, but one must have deflected my first, well-rested shot. I held about 4" below his back, behind the shoulder, on both the first (miss) and the third (fatal) shot. I am very thankful that I fired those two followup shots (bullets are cheap and venison is tasty). After a very a close examination of the scene last fall, I am about 95% certain that the first miss was due to a branch strike. Firing offhand without a rest explains the second one. I think I may have located the clump of branches that caused me the trouble on the first shot. I definitely located the tree that gave me a rest and cost this buck his life with the third shot. The smaller buck I took up there last fall was only 50 yards away, but was on the edge of mature evergreen forest where a shot up to 200 yards may have been possible. For this season, my search continues for a rainy/snowy weather, short range still-hunting gun. What do you think about a Winchester 94, 16" trapper in .45 colt ?. I am still leaning towards the Marlin 336BL 30/30. That will be easier to put a scope on if the open sights don't get er done for me.

No big deal either way. At least crossbows still have the peak of the rut in the southern zone, plus 3 days earlier in October, up in the northern zone, prior to ML. That makes 17 days that I can use my cheap, entry-level crossbow in NY. I might have dumped a grand into one if they gave it all of archery season. Now, in 3 more days, I can use that cash on a new rifle, if I hear that full inclusion get's shot down again this year. Also, it will be nice spending that early part of "crossbow off-limits" archery season doing a little more small game hunting. It sure would make filling DMP tags a lot easier in overpopulated zones if they let the crossbow in at the start. Those doe groups wise up and go nocturnal real fast after they detect a little early archery season pressure. Fortunately, it has usually been easy for me to take a buck with one after the rut kicks in. I am still waiting for the first doe however.

How about something similar: AR's for the first two weeks of bow and gun, then unrestricted for the remainder? That has been what I have been doing over the last few years. Usually, it has paid off in more meat (and more antler points), but it did cause me to look for tag-soup recipes two years ago.

I do not support a one buck rule and am on the fence on the AR's. If they can be shown to improve hunter safety I am for them, if not, then against. I don't not consider any hunting season a complete success unless I fill both buck tags. Does are a nice bonus, if I need more meat. I butcher most of my own, and bucks are easier to do with less fat to trim. It is all about the meat for me. The primary reason I prefer 2-1/2 year old bucks over 1-1/2's is because they have more meat on them. I have not killed many that were older than that but I do not remember much decrease in taste quality with older bucks. A lot of that has to do with aging the meat at the right temperature, the food the buck has been eating, and how quickly it is killed. The older the deer, the longer it should be aged. 2 weeks is at 30-40 degrees F is perfect for a 3-1/2 year old. Button bucks are the only ones that are very tender if processed immediately without aging. Overall, as a meat hunter, I am very well pleased with the hunting we have here in NY and the job the DEC has done. I personally had my best meat-producing season to date last year with a 2-1/2 & 1-1/2 yr buck and a 3-1/2 & 1-1/2 yr doe. The tastiest tenderloins and liver came from the 1/2 year buck that a friend killed on one of my DMP's (he only wanted to keep one backstrap). The only little tweak to the rules that I would really like to see is full-inclusion of the x-bow. I have the cash ready to fork over on a more powerful x-bow, the minute I here that passes. If it don't, I will just stick with my $250 entry level model that has got the job done ok every time so far. That is all the money I am willing to invest in a 2 week season.

AR's might help safety or they might hurt it. Maybe we could figure it out by looking at PA. That state is about as close with hunter density and terrain to NY as any other. There should be about 10 years worth of data that might help determine if AR's have improved or hurt safety there. If they have hurt safety, then I would be against them. It seems to me that slowing folks down a little and making them more sure of their target would be more apt to improve safety than to hurt it but I could be wrong. A study of PA data should help eliminate the guesswork. Improved hunter safety is the only reason I would support AR's.

It might slow folks down, making them more sure of their target, and what is beyond, before shooting. I would feel a safer in the woods if there were AR's in place, especially if there was no exemption for young or first time hunters. Most hunters have not had their hair parted by a slug like I have, so I understand your reluctance. Up in the northern zone, where hunter density is low, I could take AR's or leave them. In the Southern zone, they might just result in a significant decrease in hunting accidents. I am far more concerned with keeping hunters safe than the size of the antlers or the health of the herd. It is not that difficult to understand why a "brown-down" hunter, in possession of a buck and doe tag, is a bit more dangerous than one who must be sure of his or her target before shooting. Since there seems to be about the same number of people for and against AR's, maybe the best solution would be a compromise. Something like AR's the first two weeks of bow season and gun season would be a good place to start.

Rob, I have never been at the wheel of a vehicle that hit a deer. I am sorry if I confused you on that. Twice I have been a passenger though. Thanks again for the Jesus bump, which is especially nice on a Sunday in Lent. Any time you want to jump on a thread and bring up Jesus, fell free to do it. The moderators are ok with it, even if it involves a personal attack on me. Chefhunter has been a little lax on that lately and it is good to see you getting in a few. There simply can not be too much of Jesus on a hunting website since it is thru Him that all blessings flow. I have never and will never kill a deer (or catch a fish) without lots of help from Him.

I am not familiar with the 7mm08 and ammo availability might be an issue with that. The .308 might be a little too much recoil for my daughters. I may sell or trade my 22/250, M77 woodchuck rifle when I get the .243, because I rarely use that any more. The .243 can handle the 3-4 chucks a year I have been averaging, and would also be better for coyote hunting at night. I understand that it is not the ideal woods deer cartridge, but think I can work with its limitations. I know all about brush deflection and that was the most likely cause of my initial miss on a big-bodied eight-point up there at 300 yards, two years ago. My first well-rested shot must have struck an unseen branch on the hillside when I shot at the buck standing down in a valley. My second offhand shot also missed (I only took that one because I assumed the first one was a hit). Fortunately, a tree showed up in the right place to rest my rifle against for the third shot, which put him down in his tracks. Sometimes those trees are your friends and other times not so much. Those two shots were my only misses on a deer in the last 10 years and the lesson of avoiding branches has sunk in. A good scope should show every branch within 200 yards. The only way I would consider a shot up there over 200 yards now would be if there was no chance of a branch hit, which pretty much means it won't happen. The shot angle point is well taken. I probably would not have taken a Texas heart shot last fall with a .243, but it was like shooting a duck in a barrel with my 30/06. If a .243 had struck the same spot, the buck would have died just as quick, but I would not have had nearly the margin for error. A kill that I was 95% sure of making would have dropped to about 75%, which is a no-go for me, even late in the season when I need meat. Most of the deer I have killed have been heart/lung hits and I am willing to pass or wait for a better angle on some, in exchange for a little more comfort, carrying the lighter gun. As far as the lever, I just thought up another option. My father in law won't like me taking his Marlin 336 out in rain or snow, but if I offer to put a scope on it, he might let me take it out in good weather. I had one just like it years ago, and those side-eject Marlin levers are great with a 3x scope. That would be my still-hunting gun in good weather conditions and the open sighted 336 BL in the bad stuff. Sticking with the 30/30 will simplify the ammo situation. I will tell him that I am setting it up for his granddaughters, which is the truth. They have a nice rifle range up there and we may put that plan in place over Memorial day weekend. This will save me some cash and allow me to delay the purchase of the .243 until when and if both daughters decide to take up deer hunting. The 336 BL just took the #1 slot away from the .243 bolt. The 18" barrel is more important to me than the "big loop", but it would be nice while sitting in the cold. I will probably get a 3X scope and mounts for it, but put those on my father in laws gun if he goes for the deal. If he don't go for it, I will just suffer thru the foul weather with the scope as I have gotten used to anyhow. Thanks guys, It did not take much to steer me away from that black .243 Ruger American. If only it were not so darned ugly. If my daughters want one, they can get it in pink cammo. I don't think I will be carrying it.

I am also going to start shopping for new Adirondack still hunting rifle(s). My heavy, 22" barrel, Ruger M77, 30/06 has killed every animal I fired it at, but is not very comfortable for that type of hunting. In addition to a better still hunting rifle for myself, it should be something that my daughters could handle when they get old enough to hunt in the next couple years. I have it narrowed down to two. I may end up getting both of them, especially if both daughters decide to take up deer hunting. The first one is probably going to be a Ruger American compact, .243 with a 2-7 Vortex crossfire II scope. That combo weighs in at 6.5 pounds with an 18" barrel. The reviews say it has a very good, adjustable trigger. It will carry in the bush a lot better than than my current rifle, should be good on a deer to about 300 yards from a rest, and would be about perfect for my daughters. The drawbacks are: First, it is ugly with a dull black metal finish and black plastic stock. Second, scopes are bad in rain or snow. Third, the smaller bullet will be more likely to deflect from a branch than my current rifle. I will be keeping my 06 because I will need it if the girls hunt, it looks a lot better with a fancy laminated wood stock, and I just can't get rid of a gun that has never failed to deliver. The second one is Marlin 336 BL, 30/30. This one is everything that the little bolt-action Ruger isn't. It is a tad heavier at 7.5 pounds. It looks a lot better with shiny blued metal and a wood laminated stock and grip. The open sights should be good in the rain and snow. The "big lever" should be great with heavy insulated gloves. It also has a short 18"barrel, making it a good bush gun. The slower, heavier .30 cal bullet should get thru some cover with less deflection or fragmentation. A 44 magnum would probably be better yet and maybe they will offer this model in that caliber in another year or so when I am ready to buy it. The reviews say it has a sloppy, heavy trigger, but that should not be a big issue at shorter ranges. I would not fire past 100 yards with open sights, and I would expect most shots to be half that or less. Both of these brand new outfits will cost in the $500 - $600 range. I hope to have the .243 in the next few weeks, and start seeing how it performs on the range. In rain or snow this fall, I will bring along my 12 ga Remington 870 slug gun and use that for still hunting. I have brought down every deer I have shot at with that at ranges up to 100 yards (not always with the first shot however). Another option this may be my father in law's new Marlin 336 (standard 22" barrel model) that he has never used. He likes spoiling his grandaughters though, so I am sure he would let them use it if they ask politely.

The best time to plant clover in NY state is starting around August 15 thru around September 15. If you plant earlier, weeds are tough to control. I usually get the ground tilled at the end of the summer. Broadcast wheat (or cerial rye) onto the tilled soil, then cultipack. Those larger seeds do a little better deeper, which is why they should be pressed into the "fluffy soil" with the cultipacker. Next, broadcast white clover, then cultipack again, perpendicular to the first direction. The smaller clover seeds do better if planted shallow, which is why the soil should be cultipacked before and after planting. If you don't have a cultipacker, multiple passes with ATV tires will work ok on smaller plots. Some folks drag a log around or use a lawn roller. If I have some extra soybean seeds, I throw that in at the same time as the wheat or rye. Austrian Winter Peas (AWP) are a good alternative. The sprouting soybeans or AWP will draw deer to the spot early in the fall. The deer will usually wipe out all the soybeans before the frost gets them, while AWP will persist thru a frost in areas of low deer population (or if fenced). The wheat or rye will come on next, a little later in the fall and hold the deer on the plots until it gets covered by snow. The following spring, the wheat or rye will keep down the weeds, providing a "nurse crop" for the clover. It should be mowed before it goes to seed. After that, your white clover plot should give you 3-5 years of good attraction with just a couple mowings a year for maintenance. When the grass begins to overtake the clover, after several years, that is telling you that the nitrogen level in the soil is getting high. Now you can utilize that by tilling the plot again and putting in a nitrogen loving plot like brassicas or corn. After one year of that, you can start the cycle all over again with the August 15 planting of soybean/wheat,eye,white clover mix. You might want to spend some time and money between now and August getting the soil ph in shape, by adding lime as recommended by a soil test. Clover does not do well in acidic soils.

Cool, 34 pages, lets keep it rolling and we might hit 50 in a week or so. I do understand the downside of AR's, especially with the still-hunting and tracking techniques where you don't get a lot of time to count points. What time you have would be better spent on concentrating on the vitals area and shot placement. I like those techniques and am planning to spend more time on them. I killed my first deer last season that way (see ML harvest thread), but the other three were ambushed from a stand, ground blind, or a tree seat (see 15 page THS thread). AR's would have not have slowed me down much on those three. Unfortunately, the zone where I plan on spending more time still-hunting and tracking (6C) is covered by the proposed AR bill (3 point per side), but my home zone (9F), where I rarely stillhunt or track, is not covered. Part of the reason I don't still hunt or track much at home is fear of getting shot by neighbors. Hunting pressure around here is about 10X that up in the mountains. If I could change the proposed bill, I would put zone 9F in the 3-point per side and take out zone 6C. I wonder what the penalty for violation (harvesting a buck without enough points) would be. The crossbow buck I killed last season (see crossbow harvest thread) appeared to be a solid 8, but turned out to be a 5 with both brow tines broke off and another point on the opposite side antler. At least he turned out to be a 2-1/2 year old which I was able to verify from the jaw and teeth after finishing the euro mount. In PA, I see that the penalty is a $25 fine and you can keep the deer unless you can't come up with a good excuse, then it is a bigger fine ($250 or $500). I bet that results in a good number of deer left to rot, and it has to put some added strain on the enforcement agencies. I would prefer a penalty where the violators could keep their "mistake", but they would loose their buck tag for that season (bow or gun) on the following year. That would be much easier to enforce, would allow beginners to shoot any buck, and should result in a few less small bucks left to rot. BM7600: I tried explaining that to DOC earlier when he posted almost the exact same thing. Some folks just need a little more convincing. Thanks for your help. How about a compromise on the AR's: Put them in the southern zone but keep them out of the northern zone? That should be ok with the two of us anyhow.

It is time to start working on #4.

Fortunately, I have never killed a deer with my own vehicle. That is no easy task, considering the overpopulated zone I drive thru every weekday on the way to and from work. The Good Lord (thank you for bringing His name onto this post and earning a "like" from me) has blesed us with a dozen or so which have been struck by others, several of which were not dead and had to be finished off with my knife. I am thankful (but not proud) to have been in position to quickly end their suffering. Maybe those are the posts you are remembering. Doc, Would you more feel safe, less safe, or no different while hunting if AR's were in place? It would be interesting to see some stats on average deer hunting accidents in PA or the AR zones of NY before and after the AR's. That might help prove that point (no pun intended) one way or another.

Congrats, kids are cool. I just got back from canoeing down the creek and back a couple times with my "Irish twin" daughters. They definitely put hurting on the freezer as they grow. They and their mother love venison tacos. Long gone are the days when two deer were enough. Last year they ran us out of ground meat before bow season started. I am looking forward to the day when they help fill the freezer and not just empty it.

Many years ago, prior to legal rifles in WNY, or even rifled slug barrels, a deer was a little out of range, so I got down from my stand and tried to get a little closer. I was wearing a blaze orange jacket and hat. When I stepped thru a hedge-row, I felt the pressure wave from a foster slug, against the side of my face, before I heard the gun go off. I immediately hit the dirt, which started hitting me as 4 more rounds landed close by. Another hunter had emptied his shotgun at the deer that stood between us. Were it not for that "special" feeling, one that many "lucky" veterans have experienced in combat, I would likely be totally against AR's. If they have the potential to slow folks down, and make sure of their target , and what is beyond, then I am for them. When there are no AR's, and a hunter can legally kill an antlerless deer or a buck of any size, there is not much there to slow them down. We have now heard of multiple cases, on just this one thread, how folks in that situation have fired when they were not sure if the deer had antlers or not. I am not saying that means the shot was not safe, so please don't take it that way. I have killed several bucks myself, including one with 10 points, that I did not know had antlers until I walked up to the carcass. Every time, I had a buck and a doe tag and I was 100 % sure that it was a deer and that I could take a safe shot. I was also at least 90% sure that I could make a clean kill with it. There are many times when the heart/lung vital area is in the clear but the head is not. AR's will take some of those opportunities away, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make in exchange for a little more safety. The improved safety side-benefit is the primary reason why I do not support an exemption for kids on the AR's. Their vision should be best when they are young, making it easier for them to see and count antler points. If anything, maybe seniors should get an exemption.

All good points. It sounds like the AR thing is dead in the water for this year anyhow. It's no big deal for me, as I understand the reasons against it and my home zone was not involved anyhow. I am glad that the crossbow full inclusion still has some traction in Albany. That will make it much easier for me to fill the freezer this year, unlike the AR's, which would make it a little tougher.

I did it one time and I will tell you why: It was 13 years ago and I was having a tough year, with no shot opportunities through archery season and two weeks into gun season. My hunting time was extremely limited, due to a hectic work schedule which included lots of time out of state. I was home on the third Saturday of gun season, but I had to fly out of town for work early the next morning. It was a big job, and more than likely this was the last day I could hunt that year. I had two dmp tags and one buck tag. It was pouring rain, so I grabbed my open-sight Remington 870 and headed for my ground blind. After a few hours of no sightings, the rain and wind stopped and the sun came out. I made my way to nearby stand, near a clover field. A few minutes later, a deer came out of the brush and started feeding about 100 yards away. That was a little farther than I had shot on the range with that gun. It soon became apparent that the deer was not going to get any closer. I could not make out any antlers. From a very good rest, I squeezed off a shot. The shot went high, as I saw mud fly past the deer. The deer continued to feed. I corrected the range, aiming lower, and broke it's back with my next shot. It hobbled into the adjacent brush and was dead by the time I got close. Only then did I see those 1-1/2" antlers, which required one of my dmp tags. I think it was a late-born buck from the prior year, but it may have been a very well-fed, early-born one from that year. It field dressed about 85 pounds, and provided our family with the only venison we had that winter. If I were in that situation again, I would do nothing different (except maybe aim a little lower with my first shot). I was happy to see that it had antlers, as our deer population was slightly below optimum at that time. Today, it is well above optimum (in zone 9F), so I would be a little sad to see those antlers. None the less, it was one of the better-eating deer that I remember.

Today you are 6 months late for wheat or rye and about a month early for oats.

That buck nybuckboy posted looks like a shooter for sure, but that one rattler posted looks a bit thin and sickly. I don't shoot them for the antlers, so I would likely pass that one, especially early in the seasons.

AR's may have made him look a little closer before pulling the trigger. He had a few doe tags and a buck tag at the time. I noticed the tag on the antlers when we drove by, later on the morning of the kill, as he and his cousin were getting ready to load it onto their truck. They saw us drive by slowly that morning, which is probably why he walked over to talk to me later. He honestly did seem upset about killing the little buck. I told him it was not a problem, not to worry about it, and how I had seen it a week earlier. He has always been an honest kid and I am sure he would not have left it to rot. Speaking of that, does anyone know what the penalty would be for shooting a buck that does not meet the AR's? What do you think about my suggestion of no fine, but loosing your right to buy a buck tag for that season on the following year? That would be easy to enforce by computer, with no extra effort from DEC officers required. It would also give some folks a taste of that "one-buck" rule that several have mentioned. Although I am a little sad at the loss of an opportunity at a good-eating, 2-1/2 year old buck on our farm this fall, at least that little buck did not die in vain. Besides adding at least a page to the lively discussion on this thread, he provided that kid's family with some fine-eating, corn-fed venison. That is something we really can thank Jesus for.

I disagree db, and I am glad to see that the bill being considered does not include exemptions for the youth and inexperienced. Those are the people who stand to gain the most by following the rules. That kid next door was almost crying with that little buck, knowing that he blew his chance at a few of the big ones that were running around last season.

I changed my point of view on AR's after reading this thread. The main benefit I see is that it will make people think a little more, and identify their target before pulling the trigger or releasing the arrow. That will make everyone safer and will probably result in less wounded and non-recovered deer. Unfortunately, my home zone (9F) is not covered by the bill, but if it has a positive impact in other zones, it is likely to follow. The other zone I hunt (6C), is covered by the 3-point AR, so I may see some benefit this fall if the bill passes. I worry a bit about how they will enforce a violation. I would like to see no fine for a violation (not enough points). Instead, I would like to see the hunter keep his "accident", but loose the right to purchase a buck tag for that season the following year. This way, those asking for a "one buck rule" get to see a little of that. I would also make no exemptions for young hunters. They are the ones who need the most practice in identifying their target before shooting. The largest factor in me changing my stance on AR's was a neighbor kid shooting a little buck last season, that I had passed a week or so earlier. He told me later, that he thought it was a doe (the three point rack was hidden behind the ears), and he seemed genuinely upset that he had killed the little buck. I bet he wished that those AR's were in place at the time.

That is interesting, and is something I have not often seen. Two seasons ago, in WMU 6C, on Thanksgiving weekend (post rut), I watched a doe with a set of fawns walk by, about 50 yards away. One or both may have been buck fawns. Soon after, another large doe, with a single fawn in tow, approached from the same direction. The doe did not notice me, in full cammo, sitting at the base of a tree, and that fawn walked to less than 10 yards away, allowing me to see that it was clearly a buck. He then followed after his mother. This past season in the same area, I still-hunted within 40 yards of a BB and a doe in early October. That doe offered me a "chip-shot" with my ML, but I had already filled my antlerless, early ML tag a few days prior (see 2016 ML harvest thread). This particular region, in the NW foothills of the Adirondacks, has some mixed hardwood forests that have been selectively logged, mature evergreens, and scattered ag fields, including some standing corn. I have seen very few, lone antlerless deer up there. At home, in WMU 9F & 9A, in Western NY, the terrain is flat as a pancake and consists mostly of abandoned & overgrown Ag fields, small blocks of mature hardwood forest, and working Ag fields including hay, corn, and soybeans. These zones are extremely overpopulated with deer and it is very rare to see the antlerless ones alone. Almost all of the BB's I have harvested here were taken after I or someone else took their mother. We turned that around this fall with my buddy taking the BB in the morning and me taking the doe that afternoon when she showed up at the gut-pile at milking time. The mother was with the BB in the morning but he was not able to get a clear shot at her then. SZ opening day is peak rut time.

To clarify, most of the button bucks I see are still with their mothers. The only ones I see without their mothers are those who's mother has been killed. I have never seen a mother "disperse" her buck fawn prior to or during hunting season. I am guessing that the "dispersal" you are referring to usually occurs around late spring when the next fawn is born, regardless of sex.

Those I see are usually still with their mothers, until their 2nd hunting season. They are only alone, during the first one, if their mother gets shot.