wolc123

Rob, I have never been at the wheel of a vehicle that hit a deer. I am sorry if I confused you on that. Twice I have been a passenger though. Thanks again for the Jesus bump, which is especially nice on a Sunday in Lent. Any time you want to jump on a thread and bring up Jesus, fell free to do it. The moderators are ok with it, even if it involves a personal attack on me. Chefhunter has been a little lax on that lately and it is good to see you getting in a few. There simply can not be too much of Jesus on a hunting website since it is thru Him that all blessings flow. I have never and will never kill a deer (or catch a fish) without lots of help from Him.

I am not familiar with the 7mm08 and ammo availability might be an issue with that. The .308 might be a little too much recoil for my daughters. I may sell or trade my 22/250, M77 woodchuck rifle when I get the .243, because I rarely use that any more. The .243 can handle the 3-4 chucks a year I have been averaging, and would also be better for coyote hunting at night. I understand that it is not the ideal woods deer cartridge, but think I can work with its limitations. I know all about brush deflection and that was the most likely cause of my initial miss on a big-bodied eight-point up there at 300 yards, two years ago. My first well-rested shot must have struck an unseen branch on the hillside when I shot at the buck standing down in a valley. My second offhand shot also missed (I only took that one because I assumed the first one was a hit). Fortunately, a tree showed up in the right place to rest my rifle against for the third shot, which put him down in his tracks. Sometimes those trees are your friends and other times not so much. Those two shots were my only misses on a deer in the last 10 years and the lesson of avoiding branches has sunk in. A good scope should show every branch within 200 yards. The only way I would consider a shot up there over 200 yards now would be if there was no chance of a branch hit, which pretty much means it won't happen. The shot angle point is well taken. I probably would not have taken a Texas heart shot last fall with a .243, but it was like shooting a duck in a barrel with my 30/06. If a .243 had struck the same spot, the buck would have died just as quick, but I would not have had nearly the margin for error. A kill that I was 95% sure of making would have dropped to about 75%, which is a no-go for me, even late in the season when I need meat. Most of the deer I have killed have been heart/lung hits and I am willing to pass or wait for a better angle on some, in exchange for a little more comfort, carrying the lighter gun. As far as the lever, I just thought up another option. My father in law won't like me taking his Marlin 336 out in rain or snow, but if I offer to put a scope on it, he might let me take it out in good weather. I had one just like it years ago, and those side-eject Marlin levers are great with a 3x scope. That would be my still-hunting gun in good weather conditions and the open sighted 336 BL in the bad stuff. Sticking with the 30/30 will simplify the ammo situation. I will tell him that I am setting it up for his granddaughters, which is the truth. They have a nice rifle range up there and we may put that plan in place over Memorial day weekend. This will save me some cash and allow me to delay the purchase of the .243 until when and if both daughters decide to take up deer hunting. The 336 BL just took the #1 slot away from the .243 bolt. The 18" barrel is more important to me than the "big loop", but it would be nice while sitting in the cold. I will probably get a 3X scope and mounts for it, but put those on my father in laws gun if he goes for the deal. If he don't go for it, I will just suffer thru the foul weather with the scope as I have gotten used to anyhow. Thanks guys, It did not take much to steer me away from that black .243 Ruger American. If only it were not so darned ugly. If my daughters want one, they can get it in pink cammo. I don't think I will be carrying it.

I am also going to start shopping for new Adirondack still hunting rifle(s). My heavy, 22" barrel, Ruger M77, 30/06 has killed every animal I fired it at, but is not very comfortable for that type of hunting. In addition to a better still hunting rifle for myself, it should be something that my daughters could handle when they get old enough to hunt in the next couple years. I have it narrowed down to two. I may end up getting both of them, especially if both daughters decide to take up deer hunting. The first one is probably going to be a Ruger American compact, .243 with a 2-7 Vortex crossfire II scope. That combo weighs in at 6.5 pounds with an 18" barrel. The reviews say it has a very good, adjustable trigger. It will carry in the bush a lot better than than my current rifle, should be good on a deer to about 300 yards from a rest, and would be about perfect for my daughters. The drawbacks are: First, it is ugly with a dull black metal finish and black plastic stock. Second, scopes are bad in rain or snow. Third, the smaller bullet will be more likely to deflect from a branch than my current rifle. I will be keeping my 06 because I will need it if the girls hunt, it looks a lot better with a fancy laminated wood stock, and I just can't get rid of a gun that has never failed to deliver. The second one is Marlin 336 BL, 30/30. This one is everything that the little bolt-action Ruger isn't. It is a tad heavier at 7.5 pounds. It looks a lot better with shiny blued metal and a wood laminated stock and grip. The open sights should be good in the rain and snow. The "big lever" should be great with heavy insulated gloves. It also has a short 18"barrel, making it a good bush gun. The slower, heavier .30 cal bullet should get thru some cover with less deflection or fragmentation. A 44 magnum would probably be better yet and maybe they will offer this model in that caliber in another year or so when I am ready to buy it. The reviews say it has a sloppy, heavy trigger, but that should not be a big issue at shorter ranges. I would not fire past 100 yards with open sights, and I would expect most shots to be half that or less. Both of these brand new outfits will cost in the $500 - $600 range. I hope to have the .243 in the next few weeks, and start seeing how it performs on the range. In rain or snow this fall, I will bring along my 12 ga Remington 870 slug gun and use that for still hunting. I have brought down every deer I have shot at with that at ranges up to 100 yards (not always with the first shot however). Another option this may be my father in law's new Marlin 336 (standard 22" barrel model) that he has never used. He likes spoiling his grandaughters though, so I am sure he would let them use it if they ask politely.

The best time to plant clover in NY state is starting around August 15 thru around September 15. If you plant earlier, weeds are tough to control. I usually get the ground tilled at the end of the summer. Broadcast wheat (or cerial rye) onto the tilled soil, then cultipack. Those larger seeds do a little better deeper, which is why they should be pressed into the "fluffy soil" with the cultipacker. Next, broadcast white clover, then cultipack again, perpendicular to the first direction. The smaller clover seeds do better if planted shallow, which is why the soil should be cultipacked before and after planting. If you don't have a cultipacker, multiple passes with ATV tires will work ok on smaller plots. Some folks drag a log around or use a lawn roller. If I have some extra soybean seeds, I throw that in at the same time as the wheat or rye. Austrian Winter Peas (AWP) are a good alternative. The sprouting soybeans or AWP will draw deer to the spot early in the fall. The deer will usually wipe out all the soybeans before the frost gets them, while AWP will persist thru a frost in areas of low deer population (or if fenced). The wheat or rye will come on next, a little later in the fall and hold the deer on the plots until it gets covered by snow. The following spring, the wheat or rye will keep down the weeds, providing a "nurse crop" for the clover. It should be mowed before it goes to seed. After that, your white clover plot should give you 3-5 years of good attraction with just a couple mowings a year for maintenance. When the grass begins to overtake the clover, after several years, that is telling you that the nitrogen level in the soil is getting high. Now you can utilize that by tilling the plot again and putting in a nitrogen loving plot like brassicas or corn. After one year of that, you can start the cycle all over again with the August 15 planting of soybean/wheat,eye,white clover mix. You might want to spend some time and money between now and August getting the soil ph in shape, by adding lime as recommended by a soil test. Clover does not do well in acidic soils.

Cool, 34 pages, lets keep it rolling and we might hit 50 in a week or so. I do understand the downside of AR's, especially with the still-hunting and tracking techniques where you don't get a lot of time to count points. What time you have would be better spent on concentrating on the vitals area and shot placement. I like those techniques and am planning to spend more time on them. I killed my first deer last season that way (see ML harvest thread), but the other three were ambushed from a stand, ground blind, or a tree seat (see 15 page THS thread). AR's would have not have slowed me down much on those three. Unfortunately, the zone where I plan on spending more time still-hunting and tracking (6C) is covered by the proposed AR bill (3 point per side), but my home zone (9F), where I rarely stillhunt or track, is not covered. Part of the reason I don't still hunt or track much at home is fear of getting shot by neighbors. Hunting pressure around here is about 10X that up in the mountains. If I could change the proposed bill, I would put zone 9F in the 3-point per side and take out zone 6C. I wonder what the penalty for violation (harvesting a buck without enough points) would be. The crossbow buck I killed last season (see crossbow harvest thread) appeared to be a solid 8, but turned out to be a 5 with both brow tines broke off and another point on the opposite side antler. At least he turned out to be a 2-1/2 year old which I was able to verify from the jaw and teeth after finishing the euro mount. In PA, I see that the penalty is a $25 fine and you can keep the deer unless you can't come up with a good excuse, then it is a bigger fine ($250 or $500). I bet that results in a good number of deer left to rot, and it has to put some added strain on the enforcement agencies. I would prefer a penalty where the violators could keep their "mistake", but they would loose their buck tag for that season (bow or gun) on the following year. That would be much easier to enforce, would allow beginners to shoot any buck, and should result in a few less small bucks left to rot. BM7600: I tried explaining that to DOC earlier when he posted almost the exact same thing. Some folks just need a little more convincing. Thanks for your help. How about a compromise on the AR's: Put them in the southern zone but keep them out of the northern zone? That should be ok with the two of us anyhow.

It is time to start working on #4.

Fortunately, I have never killed a deer with my own vehicle. That is no easy task, considering the overpopulated zone I drive thru every weekday on the way to and from work. The Good Lord (thank you for bringing His name onto this post and earning a "like" from me) has blesed us with a dozen or so which have been struck by others, several of which were not dead and had to be finished off with my knife. I am thankful (but not proud) to have been in position to quickly end their suffering. Maybe those are the posts you are remembering. Doc, Would you more feel safe, less safe, or no different while hunting if AR's were in place? It would be interesting to see some stats on average deer hunting accidents in PA or the AR zones of NY before and after the AR's. That might help prove that point (no pun intended) one way or another.

Congrats, kids are cool. I just got back from canoeing down the creek and back a couple times with my "Irish twin" daughters. They definitely put hurting on the freezer as they grow. They and their mother love venison tacos. Long gone are the days when two deer were enough. Last year they ran us out of ground meat before bow season started. I am looking forward to the day when they help fill the freezer and not just empty it.

Many years ago, prior to legal rifles in WNY, or even rifled slug barrels, a deer was a little out of range, so I got down from my stand and tried to get a little closer. I was wearing a blaze orange jacket and hat. When I stepped thru a hedge-row, I felt the pressure wave from a foster slug, against the side of my face, before I heard the gun go off. I immediately hit the dirt, which started hitting me as 4 more rounds landed close by. Another hunter had emptied his shotgun at the deer that stood between us. Were it not for that "special" feeling, one that many "lucky" veterans have experienced in combat, I would likely be totally against AR's. If they have the potential to slow folks down, and make sure of their target , and what is beyond, then I am for them. When there are no AR's, and a hunter can legally kill an antlerless deer or a buck of any size, there is not much there to slow them down. We have now heard of multiple cases, on just this one thread, how folks in that situation have fired when they were not sure if the deer had antlers or not. I am not saying that means the shot was not safe, so please don't take it that way. I have killed several bucks myself, including one with 10 points, that I did not know had antlers until I walked up to the carcass. Every time, I had a buck and a doe tag and I was 100 % sure that it was a deer and that I could take a safe shot. I was also at least 90% sure that I could make a clean kill with it. There are many times when the heart/lung vital area is in the clear but the head is not. AR's will take some of those opportunities away, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make in exchange for a little more safety. The improved safety side-benefit is the primary reason why I do not support an exemption for kids on the AR's. Their vision should be best when they are young, making it easier for them to see and count antler points. If anything, maybe seniors should get an exemption.

All good points. It sounds like the AR thing is dead in the water for this year anyhow. It's no big deal for me, as I understand the reasons against it and my home zone was not involved anyhow. I am glad that the crossbow full inclusion still has some traction in Albany. That will make it much easier for me to fill the freezer this year, unlike the AR's, which would make it a little tougher.

I did it one time and I will tell you why: It was 13 years ago and I was having a tough year, with no shot opportunities through archery season and two weeks into gun season. My hunting time was extremely limited, due to a hectic work schedule which included lots of time out of state. I was home on the third Saturday of gun season, but I had to fly out of town for work early the next morning. It was a big job, and more than likely this was the last day I could hunt that year. I had two dmp tags and one buck tag. It was pouring rain, so I grabbed my open-sight Remington 870 and headed for my ground blind. After a few hours of no sightings, the rain and wind stopped and the sun came out. I made my way to nearby stand, near a clover field. A few minutes later, a deer came out of the brush and started feeding about 100 yards away. That was a little farther than I had shot on the range with that gun. It soon became apparent that the deer was not going to get any closer. I could not make out any antlers. From a very good rest, I squeezed off a shot. The shot went high, as I saw mud fly past the deer. The deer continued to feed. I corrected the range, aiming lower, and broke it's back with my next shot. It hobbled into the adjacent brush and was dead by the time I got close. Only then did I see those 1-1/2" antlers, which required one of my dmp tags. I think it was a late-born buck from the prior year, but it may have been a very well-fed, early-born one from that year. It field dressed about 85 pounds, and provided our family with the only venison we had that winter. If I were in that situation again, I would do nothing different (except maybe aim a little lower with my first shot). I was happy to see that it had antlers, as our deer population was slightly below optimum at that time. Today, it is well above optimum (in zone 9F), so I would be a little sad to see those antlers. None the less, it was one of the better-eating deer that I remember.

Today you are 6 months late for wheat or rye and about a month early for oats.

That buck nybuckboy posted looks like a shooter for sure, but that one rattler posted looks a bit thin and sickly. I don't shoot them for the antlers, so I would likely pass that one, especially early in the seasons.

AR's may have made him look a little closer before pulling the trigger. He had a few doe tags and a buck tag at the time. I noticed the tag on the antlers when we drove by, later on the morning of the kill, as he and his cousin were getting ready to load it onto their truck. They saw us drive by slowly that morning, which is probably why he walked over to talk to me later. He honestly did seem upset about killing the little buck. I told him it was not a problem, not to worry about it, and how I had seen it a week earlier. He has always been an honest kid and I am sure he would not have left it to rot. Speaking of that, does anyone know what the penalty would be for shooting a buck that does not meet the AR's? What do you think about my suggestion of no fine, but loosing your right to buy a buck tag for that season on the following year? That would be easy to enforce by computer, with no extra effort from DEC officers required. It would also give some folks a taste of that "one-buck" rule that several have mentioned. Although I am a little sad at the loss of an opportunity at a good-eating, 2-1/2 year old buck on our farm this fall, at least that little buck did not die in vain. Besides adding at least a page to the lively discussion on this thread, he provided that kid's family with some fine-eating, corn-fed venison. That is something we really can thank Jesus for.

I disagree db, and I am glad to see that the bill being considered does not include exemptions for the youth and inexperienced. Those are the people who stand to gain the most by following the rules. That kid next door was almost crying with that little buck, knowing that he blew his chance at a few of the big ones that were running around last season.

I changed my point of view on AR's after reading this thread. The main benefit I see is that it will make people think a little more, and identify their target before pulling the trigger or releasing the arrow. That will make everyone safer and will probably result in less wounded and non-recovered deer. Unfortunately, my home zone (9F) is not covered by the bill, but if it has a positive impact in other zones, it is likely to follow. The other zone I hunt (6C), is covered by the 3-point AR, so I may see some benefit this fall if the bill passes. I worry a bit about how they will enforce a violation. I would like to see no fine for a violation (not enough points). Instead, I would like to see the hunter keep his "accident", but loose the right to purchase a buck tag for that season the following year. This way, those asking for a "one buck rule" get to see a little of that. I would also make no exemptions for young hunters. They are the ones who need the most practice in identifying their target before shooting. The largest factor in me changing my stance on AR's was a neighbor kid shooting a little buck last season, that I had passed a week or so earlier. He told me later, that he thought it was a doe (the three point rack was hidden behind the ears), and he seemed genuinely upset that he had killed the little buck. I bet he wished that those AR's were in place at the time.

That is interesting, and is something I have not often seen. Two seasons ago, in WMU 6C, on Thanksgiving weekend (post rut), I watched a doe with a set of fawns walk by, about 50 yards away. One or both may have been buck fawns. Soon after, another large doe, with a single fawn in tow, approached from the same direction. The doe did not notice me, in full cammo, sitting at the base of a tree, and that fawn walked to less than 10 yards away, allowing me to see that it was clearly a buck. He then followed after his mother. This past season in the same area, I still-hunted within 40 yards of a BB and a doe in early October. That doe offered me a "chip-shot" with my ML, but I had already filled my antlerless, early ML tag a few days prior (see 2016 ML harvest thread). This particular region, in the NW foothills of the Adirondacks, has some mixed hardwood forests that have been selectively logged, mature evergreens, and scattered ag fields, including some standing corn. I have seen very few, lone antlerless deer up there. At home, in WMU 9F & 9A, in Western NY, the terrain is flat as a pancake and consists mostly of abandoned & overgrown Ag fields, small blocks of mature hardwood forest, and working Ag fields including hay, corn, and soybeans. These zones are extremely overpopulated with deer and it is very rare to see the antlerless ones alone. Almost all of the BB's I have harvested here were taken after I or someone else took their mother. We turned that around this fall with my buddy taking the BB in the morning and me taking the doe that afternoon when she showed up at the gut-pile at milking time. The mother was with the BB in the morning but he was not able to get a clear shot at her then. SZ opening day is peak rut time.

To clarify, most of the button bucks I see are still with their mothers. The only ones I see without their mothers are those who's mother has been killed. I have never seen a mother "disperse" her buck fawn prior to or during hunting season. I am guessing that the "dispersal" you are referring to usually occurs around late spring when the next fawn is born, regardless of sex.

Those I see are usually still with their mothers, until their 2nd hunting season. They are only alone, during the first one, if their mother gets shot.

We just switched from cable to Direct TV and picked up a couple outdoor channels. "Created Outdoors" was a good show, that I saw for the first time last night. It was encouraging to see the credit given to Jesus Christ for hunting success. I know my own hunting and fishing have gotten much better, since I made the connection that it is thru Jesus Christ that all blessings flow. It is good to see that finally moving into the mainstream in the hunting community. This should help some more hunters wake up. After spending considerable time on this site, I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who made that connection. There are far too many people out there, cluelessing wondering why they lack hunting success. Al Linder clued me in on fishing several years ago with his Anglers edge talks. Here is a hint for you folks who are struggling: spend a little more time reading the Bible. Do that and a lot more than just your hunting and fishing might improve.

The doe:buck fawn ratio conversation is interesting. My own personal observations, mostly in WMU's 9F and 6C, have shown more than 2 buck fawns for every doe fawn. In 35 years of hunting, I have killed approximately a dozen buck fawns, including my first deer with a gun and a bow. I have also been blessed with another half dozen or so road-kills (fortunately struck by others). I have only had a taste of a single doe fawn, that a friend killed on our farm more than 30 years ago. She had no spots, but was small enough to fit into the game bag on the back of my hunting jacket. I remember helping him butcher her. We used my mom's old kitchen grinder on the scraps, giving us each one tender hamburg for dinner, when we finished the job. I see 3 possible explanations for this skewed ratio. First, there really are more buck fawns born than doe fawns. Second, I always target the largest deer when filling DMP tags, so the momma (if present) gets the first shot, followed by the largest fawn. A buck fawn is typically larger, making "little sister" the most likely to escape in that scenerio. Third, the brain probably develops faster in female deer, much as it seems to in humans, again making them more likely to avoid being killed by predators, hunters, and automobiles. I don't run any trail cameras, but extensive field observations also indicate significantly higher numbers of buck fawns. Up in the Adirondacks, where antlerless deer are off limits during gun season, I have had many walk up real close. It is almost like they know they are safe then. More than 75 % of the fawns that I have seen up close were button-bucks. The same ratio holds at home in 9F, watching them grazing in the clover plots with binoculars. Anyone would have a tough time convincing me that bucks and does are born at a 1:1 ratio, because that is in direct conflict with my own personal observations.

My favorite ground blinds are made from old construction-style truck caps. These have fold-out sides and ladder racks on top. On the first one I made, I built a 3 ft high, 3-sided wall, slightly smaller than the cap, on the deck of an old snowmobile trailer. The cap is bolted down on top of that wall. I would park that thing out in the center of a field, such as you describe, in the spring and the deer would get used to it by fall. I have killed a lot of deer out of those, actually more than from tree stands over the last 10 years. They are really nice on windy, cold, or rainy days (especially all of those combined). Those old truck caps are extremely durable (unlike those cheap pop-up blinds they sell these days). Eventually that snowmobile trailer rusted out, too bad to move, so I parked it in a hedgerow, blocked it up, and reinforced the floor. I added a second level up on the ladder rack, and another 3 foot high wall on three sides, making it a two-story. Last fall, I killed a 2-1/2 year old buck from the upper deck, during archery season. That was the first of (3) from that blind last year. On opening morning of gun season, my buddy killed a fine, fat BB from up there. I was snug and warm in the lower level that afternoon, when a big doe showed up at the BB's gut pile at milking time, and soon got to meet up with her son and husband in "deer heaven" (our freezer).

A true tale of two bucks: Prior to last season, I was dead set against AR's. Two bucks, who's home range included our farm last year, changed my opinion on that. They may have been brothers or cousins, possibly even father and son, but they were almost always together. The smaller one was a 1-1/2 year old three-point, and the larger one was a 2-1/2 year old eight-point. My neighbor to the west was the first one to see this pair, on the first week of archery season. He was holding out for an older buck, so he passed on each. He did kill a nice doe that day. He told me about the bucks, when he dropped her off for me to butcher. Near the end of archery season, on an afternoon hunt, the three-point stepped out of some thick cover. He walked within 15 yards of my stand, stopped and turned away, offering me a "chip-shot" if there ever was one. I passed, not so much due to his tiny rack, but because of his equally small body. After standing there for a few minutes, he continued off our farm, into some heavy cover, on my neighbor's to the east. 5 minutes later, his "big brother" showed up on the same track. His body looked to be about 2x larger than the little guy. He looked like decent 8-point, based on the horn on my side. I decided immediately that he was a "shooter". He did not offer me the same "chip shot", but detoured around into a corn field on the other side of the hedgerow that my stand was on. It was peak rut, and I could smell him as he approached from upwind. When he stepped out of the corn, about 20 yards away, my arrow sliced thru behind his shoulder. He stumbled about 50 yards, out into an open field, and dropped dead in sight. He only had 5 points left, with both brow tines and another point broken off during the rut. That did not bother me too much, because I hunt mainly for the meat. Fast-forward two weeks, to Thanksgiving morning. After gun-hunting the first hour, I heard two shots to the east, from the spot where that little buck had disappeared into. My neighbor's nephew killed the little guy. I saw the carcass out by the road, next to his truck, as we drove by on the way to the in-laws in the Adirondacks. I killed a buck up there and when I was taking the scraps out to my bait pile, I ran into the guy out back. He said he did not see those little antlers, and he thought he was shooting a doe. I now see two ways where MANDATORY AR's would have directly benefited me. First, There would have been one more 2-1/2 year old (my favorite bucks to shoot) available for me this year. Second, I would feel safer hunting back there, if these less experienced hunters would be forced to positively identify their targets before pulling the trigger.

A bit verbose maybe, but it sounds like mandatory statewide 3 point per side AR's for the first 2 weeks of archery and gun seasons would be a good compromise.

It has been more than 10 years since I bought a new tractor. Kubota had been number one in US compact tractor sales for a long time and their quality and resale are legendary. At that time, John Deere still used American made engines in their largest compacts. These were Tier 3, JD Powertech engines. That was the deciding factor for me, but having a close dealer, and getting a slightly better price on the green tractor also came into play. These days, John Deere has chose to use Japanese engines made by Yanmar corp in all of their compact tractors, rather than developing their own small, Tier 4 engine. I would not be surprised to see that situation change in the next few years. I have not operated Kubotas, other than the one that I test drove back at that time (A 43 hp, Grand L series). I remember it being very good. I will be spending some time on a new one, starting this year, because my father in law just got a smaller one up at his Adirondack camp (aprox 30 hp). He had a fuel issue with it up there while clearing the heavy snow last week. He was able to straighten it out with a new fuel filter, and bleeding the injectors. That glitch was caused by bad or frozen fuel and would have occured with any brand tractor. Aside from that, he is very impressed with the ability of that small, 4 wd loader tractor, both while pushing snow and pulling logs. I can't wait to try it out myself. A compact 4wd loader tractor is a lot handier than an ATV for hauling deer out of the woods.