wolc123

If there are any gun-only hunters opposed to full-inclusion, they don't seem to be very vocal or politically organized. I don't remember seeing a single post on here or anywhere else from them, expressing that view. In my opinion, all of the credit for stopping this (or at least slowing it down) should go to that small minority of bowhunters, who have once again managed to hold the line. I am very thankful for the two "peak rut" weeks we do have with the crossbow in the southern zone, and for those extra 3 days a month earlier up in the northern zone, prior to ML season up there. Full inclusion would have made it much easier for me to fill DMP tags in the southern zone, but there are some benefits of having the deer population around home (WMU 9F & 9A) way above optimum. It forces me to be careful while driving, but makes it relatively easy to keep our freezer topped off with deer meat. There is always plenty of road-kill to go around from less fortunate drivers, most of whom don't want the meat. I am also thankful that I won't have to dump a grand or more into a more powerful crossbow. My three year old, $250 entry-level model is just fine for 17 days we are currently allotted, only (4) of which I will likely hunt. I think I will spend some of that cash on a new .22 squirrel rifle for my daughter, and spend some of that "off-limits" early-archery season hunting those with her.

I can't speak for stubby, but I have been there and done that. That beef I helped raise contributed to my grandad's early death from heart-disease. I hope venison allows me to spend a little more time with my own grandkids someday. I am very thankful that my grandma sold the last of the cattle shortly after he died. That is the main reason why I prefer killing bucks of any size over does, they have less fat on them. The leaner meat is probably better for your heart. I never felt right about killing the cattle. It seemed like treachery, providing for them and feeding them every day, right up to "butchering time". There is none of that with the deer, who know damn well that I am out there to kill them, almost right from the start. I certainly do not hunt for sport, or to gather trophies, just food. The more challenge and cost that I can remove from that process the better. I appreciate the trophy hunters, and those who pass on younger deer so that they can get a chance at a mature one. Those young bucks they pass might well be the ones that end up keeping my own family from needing to purchase unhealthy, store-bought, farm-raised meat. Pride is a sin, and I feel none of it by killing deer. I do feel a sense of accomplishment however, mostly from providing healthy food for my family. The pictures are nice to preserve the memories of that, as are the occasional shoulder or euro mounts. Even the smaller racks, screwed to a chunk of wood, with the carcass tag stapled to the back, go along way towards preserving those happy memories. I have 5 carcass tags from last season tied on the freezer handle door right now, two of which will be stapled to their permanent location with the antlers, as soon as the meat is eaten. If they ever did ban hunting deer in NY, I would probably raise grass-fed goats. That meat might come close to the healthy "organic" quality that venison provides. It sure would suck having to feed and water them over the winter and deal with vets, piss and crap. You just don't know how bad those poor farmers have it compared to us hunters, until you have done both. I am very thankful for the "meat hunters" paradise we have here in NY right now. I definitely agree with stubby, that the antlers don't mean squat in comparison to the healthy and great-tasting meat. The best thing they do for me, is to indicate which deer have less fat on them.

I just checked out my youngest daughter's Red Ryder this morning for the loop modification. As it turns out, the Chinese are using a plastic loop on the new ones, so that was a no-go. I did find a metal big loop and big wood stock combo for it on-line for $40, so that will be here in about a week, which is a week earlier than the new Marlin arrives. Now it looks like she will have a $65 Red Ryder instead of a $25 one. I will trim the new stock to make the length of pull identical to the Marlin 336 BL. It looks like the BB gun barrel length is exactly the same (at least that is metal). The new metal "big loop" should get the overall weight a little closer. While 30/30 ammo is relatively cheap and easy to get, it ain't close to BB's. Also, from 25 yards, the Red-Ryder just puts them thru one side of a pop can, so we can often use them multiple times. I prefer that the kids and I do most of our target practicing with the BB guns for multiple reasons, the most important one being that the ammo is almost free. Also, the noise of neighbors target-practicing with "real" firearms is a bit aggravating at times (especially when I am hunting). I would prefer not to subject others to that aggravation. I am hoping that the kick from the 30/30 will not be too much for my small-framed daughters. The Marlin is a bit heavier than a Winchester 94, which should help with that, and it should not be too hard to locate lighter-recoiling rounds if necessary. If both girls take to deer hunting, the other one will get a .243, which should recoil a lot less. That, along with my 30/06 would give us (3) of the top (4) whitetail chamberings. If momma decides she want's to get into it, I will get her a .270, and then we will have them all covered.

Your God is with all of us Stubby. It looks like I am the only one other than you who thinks a buck could grow that much antler in 1-1/2 years. I do not believe there is anyplace on earth where it could happen in the wild however, so you are on your own there. Maybe FSW will chime in and tell us he could do it in captivity, on a conventional diet, but I doubt that also. I think that you could get enough protein into a buck in 1-1/2 years, on a straight milk diet, to grow antlers that big. I know of of a famous general down in PA (also my favorite ex-president), who won numerous 1st place awards, back in the days of fat-cattle, by finishing his black-Angus steers that way. Unfortunately, a heart-attack took him out, just like it did my grandad and most others who eat a lot of fatty beef like that. That is why I like getting most of my family's protein from free-ranging whitetail bucks (the does are a little fatty for me but still better than any beef).

I think the only way you could get that much antler on a 1-1/2 year old would be in captivity, and on a straight milk diet. In that case, his body would resemble a water balloon in shape, and we are certainly not seeing that.

I heard that Slapshot is supposed to be pretty good.

Three things point to 2-1/2. The body and the antlers give you good clues, but the shape of the his head makes it pretty certain. A 3-1/2 would be longer and more "horseish" like the one on the left in this picture. The shape of the skull of the 2-1/2 on the right is very similar to the buck in your picture. You did good by waiting though, because he will have another 50 pounds or so of meat on him this fall, and that is what it is all about.

I never killed one with it, but a friend borrowed my old scoped, Marlin 336, 30/30 lever-action and killed a big black bear over bait up in Canada quite a few years ago. I sold it a few years later, but missed it so much, that I just ordered another one today (The Big Loop model). I certainly would not hesitate to use that on a bear. In fact, if I could choose any gun for black bear at close range, that would be it. If the first shot don't do the trick, that big loop should make it easy to get out 5 more real fast. My buddy broke the shoulder on his bear, at 25 yards, and put it down in it's tracks with a single shot. I still have the rest of the ammo in that box. Maybe I can use that on the old bruin they have been seeing around my in-laws Adirondack home the last few years. My father in law has been asking for a bear rug to decorate their house, along with the whitetail mount I got him a couple years ago.

I had a 336 year ago and I don't remember it being that tough to clean. I would usually take out the screw to remove the lever, then the bolt would come right out of the back. It did not take much longer to clean than a bolt-action. Just an extra minute or two to remove and reinstall that screw. That also made it easy to bore-sight when I put a scope on it. I just sighted thru the barrel on the bull and adjusted the crosshairs to the same point at 50 yards. It only took a few shots to get it hitting right on after that. One thing is certain, this gun is going to get wet. I will keep using my scoped Ruger M77 30/06 in dry, calm conditions. It feels good to finally be ready to deer hunt in any type of weather conditions. The weather was so crappy up there opening weekend that I came home early last year. That is not going to happen again thanks to this new lever gun.

The Adirondack, rainy/snowy weather, still-hunting rifle search is over for me. I just ordered the Marlin 336, BL, 30/30. It sure would have been nice last season in all that rain we had opening weekend. My interest in lever rifles has increased since my younger daughter got a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas a few years ago. She has not shot her eye out with it yet. That open-sighted lever is a lot more fun to shoot than my older daughter's scoped Crossman 760 pump. Hopefully, thousands of shots with the Red Ryder at cans will translate to some success with the Marlin on mountain bucks. Maybe I will take the cutoff wheel and welder to the Red-Ryder and give it a Big Loop to make that cheap practice more realistic.

I think we should be able to get an archery tag, a ML tag and a gun tag. 3 bucks a season would be great.

#1 Sometimes a great notion, #2 On Golden Pond, #3 Patton, #4 Jaws, #5 Rio Lobo Almost forgot, "A History of Violence" contains my favorite line: "I will take a Genny Cream"

2-1/2

Even though I am a meat-hunter, I really do appreciate the trophy hunters and those who like killing older bucks. The small bucks they pass might be what ends up keeping my family from having to resort to store-bought chicken, pork, or turkey to fill or protein needs over a long winter. I prefer to satisfy that need for food with bucks more than does for several reasons. Most important, they are faster for me to process, with less fat to trim away. Second, does are the source of future bucks, so it just don't feel right killing them. I understand that it is necessary, because that is the only way to keep deer populations under control. My favorite bucks to eat are BB's, but I have let many of those escape by taking my first shot at their momma. Those that don't run away fast enough have often got to join her in "deer heaven" (our family's food supply) however. I also appreciate the antlers because they make nice handles for dragging the bucks into a clearing for gutting, and into a tractor bucket for transport. They also make great reminders of past hunts, and cool wall decorations. Some talk about "advancing" to trophy hunting, but I see as a step backward. When I was young and single, I was more into the antlers. Not so much since getting married and starting a family, with all those additional hungry mouths to feed. The only reason I pass 1-1/2 year old bucks, early in the seasons, is to get a crack at a 2-1/2 or 3-1/2 later. All those taste about the same, but the 2-1/2's and 3-1/2's provide a lot more meat. Even though BB's provide much less meat, it is so good that I never mind using a DMP on one. On average, 25% of my DMP's have gone on them thru the years. I would like to use all of them on those, but I sacrifice the flavor and tenderness to do my part to keep the population in check. I always target the largest antlerless deer first whenever clean shots are offered. It is too bad that some trophy hunters despise meat hunters. God did not put deer here to provide wall decorations. You can look that up in the Bible. He also has the final say to where all of them end up, so it makes sense to hunt them for the right reason - for the meat. I consider NY state to be a meat-hunters paradise, and I would rate it number one for that compared to any other state or province where I have hunted or visited. The DEC has done a great job for us. The only little tweaks to the rules I would like to see is full inclusion of the crossbow and a third buck for those of us who buy a archery, gun, and ML tag. Other than that, keep up the good work. To the sorry complainers: If you don't like it leave it, there are 49 other states to pick from. As far as my take on AR's, I am only for them if they can be shown, using data from other states, that they make hunters safer.

It sounds like I need to take the 45 colt off my short list. I don't reload, so factory ammo availability and cost are big concerns. I will not consider the .35 rem, because three different friends of mine had misfires at a "buck of a lifetime" while attempting to fire those rimless cartridges from their T/C contenders. I have no desire to join that crowd. I will probably go with a 30/30, 44 mag, or .357 mag. Any of those should provide plenty of punch in the 5 to 75 yard range, and should be tame enough for my daughters.

I would like to see a 3BR for those who buy an Archery, ML and gun tag. I hope they never go for a OBR.

SailHud25, Those long shots were taken at this buck in 2014, from up on a ridge while he stood down in a valley, at least a hundred feet lower in elevation. There was snow, which made it easy to see him as he approached from over a mile away. There were only a few branches extending out from the side of the ridge, but one must have deflected my first, well-rested shot. I held about 4" below his back, behind the shoulder, on both the first (miss) and the third (fatal) shot. I am very thankful that I fired those two followup shots (bullets are cheap and venison is tasty). After a very a close examination of the scene last fall, I am about 95% certain that the first miss was due to a branch strike. Firing offhand without a rest explains the second one. I think I may have located the clump of branches that caused me the trouble on the first shot. I definitely located the tree that gave me a rest and cost this buck his life with the third shot. The smaller buck I took up there last fall was only 50 yards away, but was on the edge of mature evergreen forest where a shot up to 200 yards may have been possible. For this season, my search continues for a rainy/snowy weather, short range still-hunting gun. What do you think about a Winchester 94, 16" trapper in .45 colt ?. I am still leaning towards the Marlin 336BL 30/30. That will be easier to put a scope on if the open sights don't get er done for me.

No big deal either way. At least crossbows still have the peak of the rut in the southern zone, plus 3 days earlier in October, up in the northern zone, prior to ML. That makes 17 days that I can use my cheap, entry-level crossbow in NY. I might have dumped a grand into one if they gave it all of archery season. Now, in 3 more days, I can use that cash on a new rifle, if I hear that full inclusion get's shot down again this year. Also, it will be nice spending that early part of "crossbow off-limits" archery season doing a little more small game hunting. It sure would make filling DMP tags a lot easier in overpopulated zones if they let the crossbow in at the start. Those doe groups wise up and go nocturnal real fast after they detect a little early archery season pressure. Fortunately, it has usually been easy for me to take a buck with one after the rut kicks in. I am still waiting for the first doe however.

How about something similar: AR's for the first two weeks of bow and gun, then unrestricted for the remainder? That has been what I have been doing over the last few years. Usually, it has paid off in more meat (and more antler points), but it did cause me to look for tag-soup recipes two years ago.

I do not support a one buck rule and am on the fence on the AR's. If they can be shown to improve hunter safety I am for them, if not, then against. I don't not consider any hunting season a complete success unless I fill both buck tags. Does are a nice bonus, if I need more meat. I butcher most of my own, and bucks are easier to do with less fat to trim. It is all about the meat for me. The primary reason I prefer 2-1/2 year old bucks over 1-1/2's is because they have more meat on them. I have not killed many that were older than that but I do not remember much decrease in taste quality with older bucks. A lot of that has to do with aging the meat at the right temperature, the food the buck has been eating, and how quickly it is killed. The older the deer, the longer it should be aged. 2 weeks is at 30-40 degrees F is perfect for a 3-1/2 year old. Button bucks are the only ones that are very tender if processed immediately without aging. Overall, as a meat hunter, I am very well pleased with the hunting we have here in NY and the job the DEC has done. I personally had my best meat-producing season to date last year with a 2-1/2 & 1-1/2 yr buck and a 3-1/2 & 1-1/2 yr doe. The tastiest tenderloins and liver came from the 1/2 year buck that a friend killed on one of my DMP's (he only wanted to keep one backstrap). The only little tweak to the rules that I would really like to see is full-inclusion of the x-bow. I have the cash ready to fork over on a more powerful x-bow, the minute I here that passes. If it don't, I will just stick with my $250 entry level model that has got the job done ok every time so far. That is all the money I am willing to invest in a 2 week season.

AR's might help safety or they might hurt it. Maybe we could figure it out by looking at PA. That state is about as close with hunter density and terrain to NY as any other. There should be about 10 years worth of data that might help determine if AR's have improved or hurt safety there. If they have hurt safety, then I would be against them. It seems to me that slowing folks down a little and making them more sure of their target would be more apt to improve safety than to hurt it but I could be wrong. A study of PA data should help eliminate the guesswork. Improved hunter safety is the only reason I would support AR's.

It might slow folks down, making them more sure of their target, and what is beyond, before shooting. I would feel a safer in the woods if there were AR's in place, especially if there was no exemption for young or first time hunters. Most hunters have not had their hair parted by a slug like I have, so I understand your reluctance. Up in the northern zone, where hunter density is low, I could take AR's or leave them. In the Southern zone, they might just result in a significant decrease in hunting accidents. I am far more concerned with keeping hunters safe than the size of the antlers or the health of the herd. It is not that difficult to understand why a "brown-down" hunter, in possession of a buck and doe tag, is a bit more dangerous than one who must be sure of his or her target before shooting. Since there seems to be about the same number of people for and against AR's, maybe the best solution would be a compromise. Something like AR's the first two weeks of bow season and gun season would be a good place to start.

Rob, I have never been at the wheel of a vehicle that hit a deer. I am sorry if I confused you on that. Twice I have been a passenger though. Thanks again for the Jesus bump, which is especially nice on a Sunday in Lent. Any time you want to jump on a thread and bring up Jesus, fell free to do it. The moderators are ok with it, even if it involves a personal attack on me. Chefhunter has been a little lax on that lately and it is good to see you getting in a few. There simply can not be too much of Jesus on a hunting website since it is thru Him that all blessings flow. I have never and will never kill a deer (or catch a fish) without lots of help from Him.

I am not familiar with the 7mm08 and ammo availability might be an issue with that. The .308 might be a little too much recoil for my daughters. I may sell or trade my 22/250, M77 woodchuck rifle when I get the .243, because I rarely use that any more. The .243 can handle the 3-4 chucks a year I have been averaging, and would also be better for coyote hunting at night. I understand that it is not the ideal woods deer cartridge, but think I can work with its limitations. I know all about brush deflection and that was the most likely cause of my initial miss on a big-bodied eight-point up there at 300 yards, two years ago. My first well-rested shot must have struck an unseen branch on the hillside when I shot at the buck standing down in a valley. My second offhand shot also missed (I only took that one because I assumed the first one was a hit). Fortunately, a tree showed up in the right place to rest my rifle against for the third shot, which put him down in his tracks. Sometimes those trees are your friends and other times not so much. Those two shots were my only misses on a deer in the last 10 years and the lesson of avoiding branches has sunk in. A good scope should show every branch within 200 yards. The only way I would consider a shot up there over 200 yards now would be if there was no chance of a branch hit, which pretty much means it won't happen. The shot angle point is well taken. I probably would not have taken a Texas heart shot last fall with a .243, but it was like shooting a duck in a barrel with my 30/06. If a .243 had struck the same spot, the buck would have died just as quick, but I would not have had nearly the margin for error. A kill that I was 95% sure of making would have dropped to about 75%, which is a no-go for me, even late in the season when I need meat. Most of the deer I have killed have been heart/lung hits and I am willing to pass or wait for a better angle on some, in exchange for a little more comfort, carrying the lighter gun. As far as the lever, I just thought up another option. My father in law won't like me taking his Marlin 336 out in rain or snow, but if I offer to put a scope on it, he might let me take it out in good weather. I had one just like it years ago, and those side-eject Marlin levers are great with a 3x scope. That would be my still-hunting gun in good weather conditions and the open sighted 336 BL in the bad stuff. Sticking with the 30/30 will simplify the ammo situation. I will tell him that I am setting it up for his granddaughters, which is the truth. They have a nice rifle range up there and we may put that plan in place over Memorial day weekend. This will save me some cash and allow me to delay the purchase of the .243 until when and if both daughters decide to take up deer hunting. The 336 BL just took the #1 slot away from the .243 bolt. The 18" barrel is more important to me than the "big loop", but it would be nice while sitting in the cold. I will probably get a 3X scope and mounts for it, but put those on my father in laws gun if he goes for the deal. If he don't go for it, I will just suffer thru the foul weather with the scope as I have gotten used to anyhow. Thanks guys, It did not take much to steer me away from that black .243 Ruger American. If only it were not so darned ugly. If my daughters want one, they can get it in pink cammo. I don't think I will be carrying it.

I am also going to start shopping for new Adirondack still hunting rifle(s). My heavy, 22" barrel, Ruger M77, 30/06 has killed every animal I fired it at, but is not very comfortable for that type of hunting. In addition to a better still hunting rifle for myself, it should be something that my daughters could handle when they get old enough to hunt in the next couple years. I have it narrowed down to two. I may end up getting both of them, especially if both daughters decide to take up deer hunting. The first one is probably going to be a Ruger American compact, .243 with a 2-7 Vortex crossfire II scope. That combo weighs in at 6.5 pounds with an 18" barrel. The reviews say it has a very good, adjustable trigger. It will carry in the bush a lot better than than my current rifle, should be good on a deer to about 300 yards from a rest, and would be about perfect for my daughters. The drawbacks are: First, it is ugly with a dull black metal finish and black plastic stock. Second, scopes are bad in rain or snow. Third, the smaller bullet will be more likely to deflect from a branch than my current rifle. I will be keeping my 06 because I will need it if the girls hunt, it looks a lot better with a fancy laminated wood stock, and I just can't get rid of a gun that has never failed to deliver. The second one is Marlin 336 BL, 30/30. This one is everything that the little bolt-action Ruger isn't. It is a tad heavier at 7.5 pounds. It looks a lot better with shiny blued metal and a wood laminated stock and grip. The open sights should be good in the rain and snow. The "big lever" should be great with heavy insulated gloves. It also has a short 18"barrel, making it a good bush gun. The slower, heavier .30 cal bullet should get thru some cover with less deflection or fragmentation. A 44 magnum would probably be better yet and maybe they will offer this model in that caliber in another year or so when I am ready to buy it. The reviews say it has a sloppy, heavy trigger, but that should not be a big issue at shorter ranges. I would not fire past 100 yards with open sights, and I would expect most shots to be half that or less. Both of these brand new outfits will cost in the $500 - $600 range. I hope to have the .243 in the next few weeks, and start seeing how it performs on the range. In rain or snow this fall, I will bring along my 12 ga Remington 870 slug gun and use that for still hunting. I have brought down every deer I have shot at with that at ranges up to 100 yards (not always with the first shot however). Another option this may be my father in law's new Marlin 336 (standard 22" barrel model) that he has never used. He likes spoiling his grandaughters though, so I am sure he would let them use it if they ask politely.