wolc123

Are you guy's against full inclusion? If so, please explain why.

The rest is big, so is the telescopic sight and so is not needing to draw or hold while drawn. All that stuff adds up to an advantage for the crossbow. You can prove that to yourself relatively cheap and easy by getting a $35 Crossman, 760 bb-gun with a scope on it and a set of 25 pound weights. Take 10 shots from a good rest, using the scope, and measure the diameter of the group. Next, remove the scope, Stand up and take the next 10 shots offhand using the open sights. Prior to each of the offhand shots, curl one 25 lb weight with your right arm while lifting the other straight up with your left (reverse if you are left handed). Hold them in position about 1 minute after each rep. Next, measure the size of the two 10-shot groups. You will get a smaller number for the rested/scoped group. If you get 1" for that and 5" for the offhand group, that's a 5:1 advantage for the crossbow on "fixed" targets. On "live" targets, the advantage is further multiplied by eliminating the need to draw with the "target" in close. On deer or groups of deer, you can usually get away with the slow motion required to position a gun or crossbow, but not a fast motion required to draw a bow. For a single deer, no big advantage to the crossbow, since you can usually wait for that single set of eyes to get behind a tree prior to making the draw. That gets a lot tougher with does however as they are usually in groups, especially during archery season. That is where the additional 2x multiplier comes in for the crossbow. The math is easy: 5 x 2 = 10. Your results may differ, but that's about where I got mine. I used my compound and my crossbow for the 30 yard test part however, so I didn't need the weights. If you do get that bb gun, you can even use it for most of your marksmanship work for crossbow hunting. It will save you lots of money on bolts and wear and tear on equipment. Both are subsonic and have similar trajectories. With a multi-pump model like the 760, you can almost match the trajectories exactly, even tuning it for different speed crossbows and bolt weights. You can even strap a little weight to the front of the bb-gun for greater realism, especially if "offhand" shots are expected with your crossbow. From a rest, I don't notice much difference between my un-weighted bb-gun and 6 pound crossbow. Good luck hunting this fall.

Everyone is different, that's what keeps life interesting. Personally, I want to use the most effective weapon, at reasonable cost, for killing deer in any season. There is a huge advantage in the "silence" of a bow or crossbow, but to say they are comparable in performance on deer is ludicrous. I would estimate that a modern crossbow has a 10X advantage over a conventional compound bow, especially on does. I really cant see what anyone has to gain by pretending they are about equal in performance. The truth will set you free. Some folks are still in the dark ages about how far the crossbows have came recently. Just last week I saw someone mention lugging around a 10-12 pound crossbow. Mine weighs a shade over 6 pounds and handles offhand almost as well as my Ruger 10/22 carbine rifle. Some folks are into challenging themselves and even go for longbows and recurves. They remind me of the guy a few months ago on here who owned a .308, but wanted to try his .22/250 on deer. I support their right to use those weapons if they want, even though I think it shows a lack of respect for the deer. Heck, I even used a 1-1/4" lock-blade pen-knife to dispatch a "road-kill" doe one time, but it was the only weapon I had at the time, when she suddenly came back to life. They deserve to be killed as efficiently as possible in my humble opinion. I also don't practice "catch and release" fishing for the same reason. I see that as the senseless maiming of a fine food source. I stop fishing after catching my limit of good eating-sized fish. I do support the right of others to do it however and I don't expect them to have the same standards as myself.

I am probably about as much of a pure meat-hunter as you can get. I live to kill and eat, whether it be deer, small game, birds, or fish. "Hardcore" is almost an understatement. I was just blessed with limits of smallmouth bass each day for this three-day weekend, taking 20 minutes the first day, 2 hours the second, and 1 hour today. I couldn't be more thankful to live in a state where one can easily provide all the protein his family needs, legally off the fat of the land. Fishing for the year is drawing to a close, the crossbow is sighted in and I am ready to start chasing deer when that season opens in the Northern zone next month. There was all kinds of sign up there this weekend and we saw lots of turkeys also. All those deer up there help me catch fish. They keep the trees trimmed below 5 feet, all the way around the lake so I don't snag up too many of the jigs I make from their tails.

How were the bugs? I rode my mountain bike around our place yesterday and even with spray on, the mosquitoes were horrific. I will definitely stick with fishing until the cold nocks them out. Were there any bugs on the squirrels themselves, like fleas, lice, ticks, etc? Rabbits are always bad like that until we get a few good frosts.

The Wed, Fri thing is a big advantage on pressured private land also. Most retired folks don't have the gumption to hunt very hard so pressure is always much heavier on the weekends when all us "working stiffs" are in the woods. I know the deer pattern me, at our place and at my folks farm. On the rare days during archery season, when I can get out mid-week, the deer action is always heavier. I would have never filled my buck tag last fall, had I not got a Wed morning off to find our farm "alive" with deer. That was the only day, bow or gun season, that I saw more than one deer here. That is with just one guy on 100 acres, so it must be worse on a lot of public land. I first sighted my gun-season buck last fall, when he was still on public land (the 6.5 million acre Adirondack park.) I felled him about 50 yards from the line on a good sized chunk of private land with controlled access. If you can find a place on public land, with difficult access, that is adjacent to an "off-limits" sanctuary-type area, your odds of scoring a big buck would go up a bit.

Even though only 5% of hunters take (2) bucks in a given year, that does not mean that this would not cause a significant increase in doe kills. The way it is now in NY, all of the hunters who take a buck early with their bow or ML, can still look forward to killing "Mr Big" later with their rifle if he shows. It is understandable then why they hold off shooting does, knowing he may be on the trail. Antlers are not necessary for human survival, but food is. Man can only go three weeks without it in fact. Since we got to eat, we will be forced to shoot does and/or be more selective of the buck we kill if limited to only one. Personally, I would like to be able to make the call myself if I shoot one or two bucks, but I have no doubt I would kill more does if I was limited to just one.

A crossbow is more effective at killing does for many reasons. The biggest one is that it does not need to be drawn with the deer in close, like a conventional bow. That is no big deal when killing lone bucks, where all one needs to do is wait for one set of eyes to get behind a tree before drawing the bow. It is a lot more difficult making the draw with multiple sets of eyes in close. It is very rare, in these infested zones which are under the new, no-bucks for two weeks regs, to find does moving around by themselves. A sharp reduction in bow-hunting pressure during those two weeks, as looks to be the consensus of those who have posted here anyhow, will mean a more favorable environment for killing does when the crossbow gets legal in the last two weeks. Anyone with 5 or so years of bow-hunting experience realizes how hunting pressure makes deer go elsewhere. It sounds like some of the newbies have not connected the dots there yet, but they will learn soon enough. Other reasons for the crossbow's greater effectiveness relate to the greater accuracy it typically achieves with far less practice time. I am not saying regular bows are not effective at killing deer. I have cleanly harvested more bucks than I can remember with 3 of them back when I was younger. I even managed to get a nice doe one time with one. I never struggled with the bucks with the bow, until family responsibilities started cutting into my practice time. I will admit that the last buck I killed with my bow about 5 years ago, took a little of that special help that many call luck, but that I know comes from elsewhere. The hefty young 5-point must have caught a glimpse of my draw as he came thru the hedgerow my stand was on. He paused about 20 yards out, quartering away, offering what looked like a perfect shot. When I released my arrow, he reared back and down, taking the mechanical broad-head right thru the jugular. I heard him flop down just out of sight. That errant, but successful shot convinced me to lay down that bow and stick to my guns. My next shot at a deer during archery season was the 6-point last fall that took the crossbow bolt thru the heart. Again, it was certainly not due to my own skill that he ended up in the freezer, but not "luck" either. I underestimated the range by about 10 yards. Big "unethical" mistake maybe but he sure tasted good. Oddly enough, the big, old rifle season buck I took later up in the Adirondacks is even tastier, probably because I aged the meat a little longer prior to processing. My girls couldn't stop eating it, they liked it so much. A high school girl with an hour's practice time under her belt, more likely than not, will be more accurate with her crossbow than a skilled archer with a compound who has practiced for a half hour a day for 6 months. Most of that is due to the fact that the crossbow is usually fired from a rest with telescopic sights, with no or little effort required to hold at full draw, or to make the draw. There is a lot more hunters with a spare hour to practice than there is with six months. Do the math. The last advantage to the crossbow, which makes it better than even a gun, is that it is almost as silent as a conventional bow. Gunshots make the deer go nocturnal in these infested zones, rich in heavy cover, even faster than all the human scent starting to permeate the woods. These are the reasons the crossbow is THE answer for getting the deer population under control in these zones.

Maybe we could get a little more detail about how the DEC plans to work the crossbow into this deal. Someone posted in the crossbow section that there will be full inclusion in 2016. Anyone hear more on that rumor? That would certainly do more to keep the deer populations under control in theses zones than any of the other ideas that have been thrown out there.

Fishing is only a sin when it is "catch and release". Jesus's first followers were fisherman. At one time He actually helped them fill two boats with fish (for consumption) to the point where they were on the verge of foundering. Another time, as reported in all four Gospels, He provided thousands of fish to feed masses of people, all by Himself. I draw no line between killing fish and eating them and killing animals and eating them. That is what God created them for - to feed people.

I will believe that when I see it. That little group of dedicated, "elitist" bowhunters is still fighting to keep them out and not showing that they are ready to "roll-over" yet. Time will eventually catch up to them though, and then they will want to pick up a crossbow and extend their own archery hunting years a bit. I don't hate those hunters, I love them just like all the rest. I just hate their action of trying to keep such an effective weapon out of our hands in archery season. There is nothing cool about discriminating against the elderly, women, children, and the disabled.

I may be off my rocker, but I sure am eating good thanks to all the help JC gave me in filling the freezer last fall. How did you all do by the way? Post some pic's if you have them. I would be more interested in pictures of backstraps and roasts than antlers however. While I was unable to fill any of my own DMP's last year, I limited on bucks plus received a couple "gift" ones. I was a little disappointed not to get a crack at a doe last fall. Hopefully that will change this year now that the DEC has stacked the deck a little in my favor. A little "doe-meat" will be nice for a change. Sorry to hear about your issue with the booze and I was not referencing you about the wild party last night. I kept it under control myself at the wedding we attended last night, but my wife was nursing a major hangover all day today - hence the missed church. It is good to hear that you were helped by Him in your recovery. I am not sure why you find it so hard to believe He helps fill my freezer. My rifle season buck appeared less than a minute after I asked Him if I could only "see" a buck. No one will ever convince me again that all the practice and reading in the world will help me get a deer more than He can. Is there any book that can help you off the booze more than the Bible?

It is actually due to my respect for God's creation that I am so strongly in favor of the crossbow. I feel that weapon is at least 10 times as effective at killing deer, does in particular, than a compound. That is also the reason I am not into "catch and release" fishing. God created animals and fish for man to eat. Few pursuits put one in a better place to enjoy and reap that bounty than hunting and fishing.

I don't expect to have the woods all to myself (that would be "selfish" of me, not something JC would be in to for sure). I do expect at least some less pressure. I see just one early bow-hunter on this site who still plans on hunting those zones for those two weeks. I also see at least two who don't. If we can so get rid of half the early bow-hunting pressure that we had last year, it should help a lot when that far more effective doe-killing weapon, and the one my hero JC would surely chose (the Cross-bow), get's legal. I also find it odd to see no reference to the crossbow in that long preceding explanation of the new regs. Why is that? p.s: I like that verse quoted above. I launched my "beam" about 1.5 years ago, there is no stopping me now. I am certainly not without sin though, nor will I ever claim to be. I couldn't be more thankful to be one of the "sinners" who HE paid the full price for up on that cross a long time ago. If I can help a few others into that boat, I would be even more thankful.

To all those "haters" who pop up from time to time: none has half the strength it would require to make me stop giving the credit for ALL of my successes to my Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Thank you, and keep them coming, for I especially relish these personal attacks. That last one may be the best one yet. They embolden me and show me THE real need which exists in many hunters out there, especially on a Sunday when we were not able to make it to church because we stayed out too late at a "wild" party. What I really like about this forum is the freedom to say whatever I want on this subject, without having to be "politically correct". It sure seems to be a "target-rich" environment. Keep up you practicing, scouting, and reading up on hunting info (it usually can't hurt) but you will never succeed in Life without Christ. I will pray for you, that you give him a chance, keep the door open, and don't close him out. Maybe take a little Bible in your pack to pass some of the quite times in the stand or blind. Some time, when you least expect it, he may shower you with blessings like he has for me. To get us back onto the topic of this thread, I do see how these new "no-buck for two weeks" regulations for my home-zone could be an extra blessing just for me. Even non-Christians scientists can understand how less human scent in the woods means more deer. Good hunting to you all this fall, and some day I hope to see you in that "happing hunting ground" up above.

We will definitely have to see how this plays out. I am excited by the change and applaud the DEC for getting it thru. The sharp reduction in early bow-hunting pressure will be a God-send for us crossbow hunters in these "infested" zones where the deer have enough cover to go nocturnal soon after they sense some pressure. I will be sure and post back, how many DMP's I am able to fill this fall with my $250 crossbow. Maybe I will even get to post a few more photos of "heart" shots. They are not giving us any more time but this will greatly multiply the quality of the little bit we do get before gun season opens. We had the peak of the rut last year, now we have it without all that extra human scent in the woods. I would settle for a small compromise with the elitist bowhunters who are still pushing hard to keep the crossbow out. Give us full inclusion, in these zones only, in exchange for a return of legal buck harvest throughout.

Any part of the deer other than antlers? Where do I turn myself in for the dozen or so tails I clipped off road-kills over the years to make fishing lures? One time I got more than I bargained for and the big "dead" doe jumped to her feet when I touched her tail. Since I already had my knife drawn, I jumped on her back, put her in a hammer-lock, and slit her throat. After she stopped flopping around on the snow, creating a scene like a bloody massacre in the fellas front yard, I threw her in the back of my pickup and drove directly to the town police station. I asked the desk officer for a tag. Someone had already called in the "road-kill" earlier. As I stood there, bloodied up a bit, he asked if the deer had to be shot. When I told him: "no, I killed it with a my knife" (a 1-1/4", lock-blade), he said: "that would be no". Then he gave me a carcass tag. Our freezer was already full, so I gave this one to a friend. He dropped it off at a butcher who said that was the cleanest deer he had ever cut up.

That is a cute little northern you caught on the home-made spinner. This big ugly one also hit a home-made lure (buck-tail jig). There was a big, spiral-shaped scar on the other side where a boat-prop must have hit, and it's gut looked fat. I found a 10" long specimen of my favorite "fall-fish" in there when I gutted him, a smallmouth bass.

Contrary to what the "experts" are saying on this thread, this will may achieve the desired effect: to reduce the deer population in specific zones that are currently "infested" with way too many deer. I live in one of them zones, and it is a pain dodging deer in the car every day on the way too and from work. It is hard to grow much shrubbery around the house, and growing pumpkins in the garden is now impossible without an electric fence. The situation is not as simple as it appears on the surface. In those first two weeks in the doe-only zones, bow-hunters will not directly reduce the deer population. Few, if any that I know have interest in killing does anyhow. For that reason, they will spend those two weeks in other zones, where killing bucks is legal, taking their human scent with them to those areas. There, they may kill their bucks and be satisfied. Bow-hunting had been rapidly gaining in popularity, in my zone at least, over the last 5 years or so. All that human scent in the woods early has hurt the gun hunting, resulting in lower overall harvest numbers, and especially antlerless. Years ago, when gun season opened, probably half the local herd was polished off on opening day. Now the deer are mostly nocturnal by opening day of gun season. The only thing that makes them go nocturnal even faster is when they start hearing the guns go off. That is why the muzzleloader is definitely not the answer to the problem. The bow is quiet, and that is good, but what makes it especially ineffective as a doe-killing weapon, is the need to draw it with the deer in close. In these "infested" zones, does almost always travel in groups. Drawing a bow with all them eyes around is seldom a slam dunk. They use the "convoy" system, just like the allies used against the axis submarines in WWII. This season, with the new "doe-only" restrictions in place, and another change put in place last season, the situation is perfect for a doe-slaughter like we have never seen. The "secret-weapon" that will take them down is the crossbow. It has the silent-stealth of the bow, but does not need to be drawn with the deer in close. Thanks to the big reduction in human scent early, they wont smell it or see it coming. They will have no idea what hit them when the crossbow opens up at the end of archery season. I almost feel sorry for the does this fall (until I look at some of the shrubs they chewed off last winter or fork over some cash to buy my kids pumpkins). Our venison supply is getting down, I just defrosted the freezer, sighted in my crossbow, and I planted the last of my food-plots tonight. I can't wait for those last two weeks of southern zone archery season when I can start working on the two DMP's I have now and hopefully two more after November 1. Hopefully I can fill my archery & ML buck and doe tags up in the northern zone before then also. I am more than ready to do my part.

That is some great pike bait there.

What I would look for in a nasty thick area is one that is fairly large and impossible to see more that 10 yards or so in most areas. Try and anticipate where the deer will enter it and get set up to ambush them there, when they are pressured by other hunters. Take the wind direction into consideration. Try to find a little opening in the thicket, and/or get up in a portable tree-stand to extend your range a bit. Stay out of the trees if you have turkeys around however as they will pick you out quick. I have often seen deer and turkeys together in these situations. They take advantage on each other's stronger senses. The deer like the turkey's eyes and the turkeys like the deer's nose and ears. Together, they have a nearly impregnable defense, but you can outwit them if you are hiding in the right place at the right time.

The top deer round is the 30/06 (150 gr to be specific). The 140 gr .270 is a close second, and the .308 a not too distant third. One thing that keeps these rounds on top is availability and cost of ammo. When choosing a whitetail rifle for NY state hunting, I would stick with one of those calibers. Personally, I use the 30/06 and have no complaints about it's performance. Even more important than caliber, is the rifle itself and the scope. I usually hunt from a stand or blind where long shots are common. A heavier, bolt-action rifle with a variable power (3-9X), high-quality scope is the way to go in that scenario. If you will be still-hunting in cover where most shots are under 75 yards or so, then a light-weight, "carbine" type rifle, with a low power scope or even open sights, would be better. The bolt-action is the undisputed king of the long shots, but a pump, or semi-auto would probably serve you better for short range work. You will likely get as many opinions as you get replies on this question and those I have listed apply to myself.

If you are after big bucks on public land you should consider "thinking outside of the box". To get big, they got to be old and to get old in pressured areas they have to evade those "expert" 10% of the hunters who kill 90% of the bucks. I see the exact same thing happen in fishing. It is often some new, non-expert who lands the largest single fish, which falls for some crazy deal that no "seasoned" angler would consider. My wife almost always catches the biggest bass when I take her out, but never the most and she never concentrates much on it. I can't count the number of hunters I know who's first buck was also their largest. Read stuff on hunting sites like this and magazines, etc, and try doing the opposite. For example, one of the largest bucks I ever saw up in the Adirondacks was bedded in a little grassy thicket just off the shoulder of a main highway, with a hunting camp right across the street. The hunters in that camp would always take trails deep into the woods, or even take boats across the lake to spots where they would begin their hunts, ignoring that little thicket just a stones throw away. The only reason I hit it was because I noticed some deer hair on a barbed-wire fence along the perimeter.

Just like with everything else, he definitely had the final say as far as where that buck and doe ended up. I am glad he chose "deer heaven" (our freezer). We ate pretty good that winter, but I was in for a little surprise when I skinned the buck. Someone had hit it a few weeks prior with an arrow. I was thankful that I did not cut my hand on the mechanical broadhead, still attached to a couple inches of aluminum shaft and lodged under the hide on the exit side. It looked like it passed thru, under the spine but above the lungs. Most likely the blades did not deploy properly on contact. That was quite a few years ago, before they had the bugs worked out of that design. I may have got more usable meat off the 4 point that stood under my stand. I threw away all the "questionable" looking stuff around the arrow wound, including the front half of the back-straps. He was showing no sign of injury while on the trail of those does, but would have never survived the winter with that arrow wound. All the rest of the meat from that buck went into grind and sausage. Fortunately the doe was a picture of health and made lots of good chops, steaks, and roasts.

For a few years, while hunting our own farm in a shotgun zone, I packed my Remington 870 slug gun with short smooth-bore barrel and open sights along with my T/C omega 50 cal ML with a 2-7X scope. That combination worked ok, with the scoped ML good for shots between 75 and 150 yards and the shotgun for closer. It was a bit of a hassle packing two guns to and from the stand however. I would usually hold the ML and have the shotgun at-the-ready, close by. I only ended up using both one time when a group of 5 or 6 antlerless deer came by about an hour after sunrise on opening day. I had one antlerless tag as well as my buck tag. When the largest doe in the group stood broadside at 90 yards, I dropped her there with a shoulder blade shot using the ML. The other deer all ran away after the shot. Just about a minute later, before I reloaded the ML or went down to gut the doe, I saw two more deer approaching on the same trail the earlier group had used. I could see as they got closer that both were bucks. The smaller one, a 4 point, 1.5 year, stopped about 10 yards from my stand, while the larger one, a 2-1/2 year, 8 point walked up to the dead doe. I had a good rest and had practiced with the shotgun at that range so I opted for the more difficult shot at the larger buck. Fortunately my aim was true, also hitting him in the shoulder blade and dropping him there right next to the doe. It made for an easy recovery as they both were on an old logging road and I was able to back the tractor right up to them and slide them onto my 3-point carryall. We are still a shotgun zone here and I much prefer the single gun I use now, A Marlin M512, rifled, bolt-action 12 ga. shotgun with a low-power Bushnell scope . That thing is more accurate that my ML, packs two extra shots, and has about double the retained energy at 150 yards. My longest kill with it was a big doe at 163 yards, and several times I have been able to "double" with it on antlerless deer. I still have not taken an antlered buck with it though. Maybe this fall I can break the ice there. I am going to be a little less selective now that they wont let us kill bucks in the late ML season in my home zone.