King Buck controversy is out of control.

[covert]

dave6x6, I wasn't trying to say my way was better or worse than yours. I was merely attempting to point out that I cannot feel sympathy for a guy whose having issues because he is voluntarily seeking some "score" for his monster buck. Is it a huge good looking buck? Heck yes. Would I be going through the same turmoil if I killed it? Heck no. I stand by my statement that I will never have a buck measured. I go to work to make money, I hunt to get away from that kind of stuff; but I guess there truly isn't anything that Man won't monetize.

Even if it came across that way, I don't have any problem with people who will only hunt for big deer just as I don't have a problem with people who take does, use crossbows, hunt with dogs or over bait (where legal), even though I don't care to. It just seems as though it is frequently stated and/or implied that there is something wrong with the people who don't mind taking a smaller buck. After hearing that so often you start to get a little punchy. Not accusing you of doing it, just giving an example.

Edited June 19, 2012 by covert

[nyantler]

Just as a point of information... the buck was scored by B&C... they determined that the antler points in question were of a common base which means that one of the points is considered abnormal... with no corresponding point on the other side... the buck (if the gentleman wants) is eligible for recording as a B&C buck (180 Class).. just not in contention for the world record... it wouldn't matter if they did a panel score or not as the score would be given based on the points in question having a common base which , again, eliminates it from contention for the world record. I would also contend that with the attention given this buck over the controversy it has been involved in .. will make it one of the most well known bucks ever. As a measurer... and only having seen close up photos of the points in question... I would agree that B&C made the right call in determining that they are of a common base... like the scoring method or not... there are rules that are adhered to based on the process... one that has been around a long time. As for some "scorers" having a difference of opinion... not all scorers are as versed and experienced as others, therefore it is quite possible that a new scorers opinion might be from his lack of experience measuring under the B&C system.

Edited June 19, 2012 by nyantler

[nyantler]

So there you have it. There is no way that hunters can get involved with any organization without being torn apart by controversy. It finally has come to me that we as hunters are incapable of getting along with each other on any subject or maintaining any organization that is capable of getting any significant hunter support. When I look at our advocacy groups and the way hunters nit-pick them to death, this little controversy really comes as no surprise at all. Why should it? It is staffed, run and comprised of hunters.

As far as I am concerned, neither of these organizations or any of their spawned off wannabes need to exist anyway. Measuring hunting success by the numbers is a foolish waste of time and effort anyway. But all this does highlight the sorry state of hunters to come to agreements on anything at all.

I wonder if the anti-hunter organizations have all this in-fighting and nit-picking nonsense going on all the time?

The scoring systems were actually spawned from hunter demand for a grading system based on interest in the biggest bucks being taken around the world...the system was never intended as a competition between hunters... just a way of recording and ranking exceptional whitetail bucks... only hunters have created the competition. B&C's only concern is recording the bucks under the system... they would be more than glad to enter a new world record.. IF it is truly a world record under the rules.

[dave6x6]

Nyanter, thanks for your info and i'm sure you know alot more then most about this subject but according to what i've read, your explanation is not whats been put out there. First off, the two scorers relieved of their duties had something like 75 yrs of scoring experience and i even thought the one guy was part of the panel to score the Hanson Buck. Even if I got that fact wrong, i do know that most reports are saying that this guy is one of the top and most respected scorers in the country. You believe that they made the right call, I'm not knowledgable enough to say either way, and then you have a pretty big group of experiened scorers that say it shouldn't be concidered a abnormal point. With all these varying opinions, Why not just panel score it and let the cards fall where they may?? To arbitrarily say that it's not deserved of at least that kinda seems odd.

[nyantler]

Like I stated earlier.. even if they panel score it now... it would be scored based on the points being of a common base.. making it not in contention for world record status... it was scored... and under the rules... once the decision is made on the points in question... it can only be scored once (to avoid "score shopping")... the heads officers of B&C... like most organizations.. have the last say on how it is classified... a head is only eligible for panel score if it meets the criteria for the world record... which the decision was made that it doesn't. An extremely non-typical rack may be panel scored because it would have many questionable points that would need evaluation and a concensus given on their status as a normal or abnormal point... as for people questioning the politics involved here... i contend that there would be no reason for B&C to keep a possible world record from being scored as such.. unless it didn't meet the criteria under the rules. The Hanson buck had no questionable points and was relatively easy to score even for an amateur... I know many measurers that have been scorers for many years and are highly regarded for their dedication to the club, but have not scored many (if any) non-typical bucks or bucks with questionable points... making them less qualified to make a final decision on a buck of this importance.. I personally think it would be exciting if the King Buck was a new world record...it is an exceptional buck... but I agree with the B&C on this one from what I have observed.

Edited June 21, 2012 by nyantler

[dave6x6]

Great insight on how the whole thing works Antler. And I agree that a new world record would only bring good things to B&C. The once scored , it can't be re-scored under a different classification i suppose makes sense but maybe you can clarify something. What step comes first. I shoot a 200+ typical. From the naked eye, it may be close to a record. Being excited, i take it to Joe shmow,local BC hunting buddy who scores the buck and says it's a new record? Or does he have to get a Head Mans classification first, and then he can score it? Also, I'm still not buying your "maybe some scorers don't have the experience with non-typicals" . The one guy was the head of the Wisconsin Club for goodness sake. WISCONSIN Clearly there is alot of dis-agreement on the classification. Maybe They should vote on some club changes. Kinda like instant replay in football.

[nyantler]

No single measurer can be the sole scorer for a world record potential... the scorer, making note of the questionable point would take an unofficial measurement to make sure that the buck is in contention.. then contact B&C officials to make arrangements for a determination on the questionable point. There are guidelines for determining a common base for two points... the determination would be made using those guidelines.. all other opinions don't matter. The rules are the same for every potential world record buck... the classification disagreement has more to do with emotions than the actual process of B&C scoring... the rules are not going to be compromised just to get a new world record... if the point in question was determined to be not of a common base.. then the buck would have been panel scored to make sure that there was a concensus on the final score... once the ruling was made that the point was of a common base... there is no need for a panel scoring because the deduction would not allow the buck enough score to be close to the world record... the buck could then be officially scored and entered into the B&C record book. Believe me.. I have been in this for quite some time... and there are a lot of measurers... not all are as qualified as others.. regardless of what you've heard about the Wisconsin scores... just like every surgeon is not as qualified as others and most major decisions are left to the head surgeon... such is the same here. The good news is that the process is the same for every potential world record... and done so to make sure that every precaution is taken to ensure a legitimate world record.

[sampotter]

Nyantler- the problem is that one guy made the decision that the tine had a common base. Check this video describing why it is not a common base: [media=]

[/media] The worst part is how inconsistent the rulings are for whether tines are typical or nontypical. The Lloyd Goad buck is one: http://www.facebook....id=408149770833

http://www.northamer...tr_1004vintage/ that got the benefit of the doubt. On both sides there are tines that could go either way. There are countless other examples of bucks that went one way or the other:

Zaft Buck (common base)

http://www.northamer...a503zaftupdate/

Herbeck Buck (common base)

http://www.herbuck.zoomshare.com/

Van Lith Buck (not common-base, Really??!!)

http://scottslifelog...-lith-buck.html

The problem is that it is left up to personal judgement, and different scorers in different eras make different calls.

Everyone is missing the real reason B+C is keeping the King buck from being considered for a possible world record- The Rompola Buck!! Remember- Rompola signed an affadavit stating that he would not enter his buck in the book as long as the Hanson buck was still the world record?.....

[dave6x6]

Sam, you had some interesting points but then you lost me with the "real" story having something to do with the fake rompola?? was that a joke that i didn't catch?

[sampotter]

Dave- yes the Rompola thing is a joke, but it is true that Hanson's attorney or agent got Rompola to sign an affadavit agreeing to never enter his buck in the B+C record buck as long as the Hanson buck was the reigning World Record. If the King buck took the spot, then Rompola could enter his, no that he would based on what he had stated in the past. Just stirring the pot. I just want to see a buck like any of these discussed in this thread alive and free once...

[ny hunter]

I thought the Rompola deer was a fake.That is why it was never measured.

[sampotter]

Never proven either way. Then he just went underground...

[nyantler]

The difference with the rampola buck is that the buck was never looked at by anyone but a few of Rampola's scorer buddies... when it came time to have it examined for possible entry as a worls record, Rampola refused to allow it to be examine thoroughly... I'm sure that B&C would like to examine Rampola's buck and enter it if it is truly a world record... I am also sure that Rampola will never let that happen... regardless of Hansen buck. He has acted fishy about the buck from the get go... being very secretive and combatant... ALL potential world record bucks are scrutinized heavily by the B&C club... and Rampola seems to have an aversion to having his looked at closely..

[nyantler]

Sam.. actually there were 4 scorers together at a scoring session that examined the King buck... the records chairman, Jack Reneau and 3 senior measurers... together they decided the point was abnormal. Now, whether Jack Reneau has something against King himself for some reason, I don't know... that would be the only reason politics would be involved.. as for all 4 measures having a problem with the hunter.. I highly doubt it. even after seeing the video you posted... I personally would still score the point as abnormal as much as I'd like to see the buck be a new world record. Even though the gentleman in the video did a lot of work to get to his determination.. I think he is right about the valley between the points, but wrong that the valley reaches tha beam... it looks to me like it stops just short of the beam and would not show two separate circles if disected... I will admit though that it is entirely possible that I am wrong as well... ...the only real way to know for sure is to cut the 2 points where they meet the beam and see if there are 2 separate circles on the beam or one big oval... unfortunately that will never happen.

Edited June 25, 2012 by nyantler

[nyantler]

B&C has a system in place where official measurers report to Jack Reneau for guidance and direction on difficult scoring situations... but, Reneau reports to Eldon Buckner, Chairman of the B&C Records Committee, a committee made up of 30 official measurers. All this is in place to assure the proper outcome in accordance with B&C guidelines. No one scorer ever makes world record decisions on his own... that is the story that nobody is hearing.

The same system happens in the NYSBBC... State records are highly scrutinized by many scores to determine its eligibilty before ever getting to the panel scoring stage... and yes sometimes there are those that disagree with the final decisions... but usually they are scorers that have some personal connection with the hunter... sometimes emotion plays a huge role in their decision because of how badly they want to see the buck become a new record.. and that is understandable... it just has nothing to do with what is actually going on sometimes.

[nyantler]

Here is the facts as told by the B&C club... as to how many times the rack was examined

1. The highest and best use of Boone and Crockett Club’s records is providing conservation professionals with a gauge for measuring success. Science-based and time-proven, trophy records can indicate habitat quality, herd dynamics, and much more.
   
2. The King Buck was reviewed and scored using the same procedures used to score whitetails since 1950. It’s this consistency over time that makes Boone and Crockett Club’s records a valuable tool for game managers.
   
3. A panel of four official measurers personally examined the King Buck in Pennsylvania. On page 41 of the Boone and Crockett Club’s scoring manual, a rule states, “There are instances where a single point comes off the top inside edge of the main beam and is considered an abnormal point.” The panel unanimously determined that a point on the King Buck’s right side fit this description. Resulting deductions lowered the antlers’ final score well below the threshold of a World’s Record.
   
4. The trophy was accepted into Boone and Crockett Club’s records as a 180-class typical trophy. The hunter, Mr. Johnny King, later withdrew the buck from the records. King then reportedly sold the rack, presumably as an investment, to Mr. Jay Fish who began a campaign to dispute the score.
   
5. Fish shopped for a Boone and Crockett Club volunteer official measurer willing to perform an unauthorized re-scoring of the rack. In doing so, Mr. Ron Boucher crossed a longstanding Club policy and Code of Conduct. Moreover, he re-scored the rack incorrectly.
   
6. Official measurers on the Boone and Crockett Club’s staff in Montana and the chairman of the Club’s Records Committee reviewed photos of the antlers and the score sheet, and unanimously determined that Boucher was mistaken. The original entry score was accurate.
   
7. At Fish’s urging, another review took place by a panel of official measurers in Idaho. The panel unanimously agreed that the tine in question was, by rule, an abnormal point.
   
8. Club officials informed Boucher that the King Buck’s original score had been confirmed. Boucher, Fish, and others who continued to argue the ruling were invited to send new photos that might offer new evidence, but no photos were received.
   

Eventually, Boone and Crockett Club was forced to dismiss two individuals for violating the Club’s policies and Code of Conduct. It was not the first time that strong action has been taken to protect the integrity of the Boone and Crockett Club’s records program—and the trophy data used by so many professionals in science-based management of whitetails.

Edited June 25, 2012 by nyantler

[dave6x6]

Thanks again NY Antler for some great info on this subject. Pretty convincing stuff and all sounds pretty above board on BC part to me. I'm also much more apt to believe BC then Deer and Deer Hunting anyway. They seem to be really interested in sensationalizing things lately. (eg. the nuges press release).

[sampotter]

When I first saw pictures of the buck I thought the tine was abnormal. The video I posted earlier made me wonder though. The biggest argument I have in favor of the buck are the examples of other bucks that were ruled the other way. The tine certainly does not follow the general perception that typical tines in that position are either taller or the same length as the following tine. Although B+C does a pretty good job of being consistent, they are not always 100%. Ultimately they are a club with a scoring system they designed and devloped from within. They made their rules and guidelines a long time ago.

[nyantler]

When I first saw pictures of the buck I thought the tine was abnormal. The video I posted earlier made me wonder though. The biggest argument I have in favor of the buck are the examples of other bucks that were ruled the other way. The tine certainly does not follow the general perception that typical tines in that position are either taller or the same length as the following tine. Although B+C does a pretty good job of being consistent, they are not always 100%. Ultimately they are a club with a scoring system they designed and devloped from within. They made their rules and guidelines a long time ago.

I agree that they are not 100%... and I will say that the video sounds quite convincing... and although I am quite experienced with scoring... I do not consider myself in the class of those that made the decision about the king buck... I can say from experience though... that some bucks that are not in contention for the world record may possibly get the benefit of the doubt by some of the many many measurers around the country... those same bucks would have been scrutinized much more by highly experienced measurers like Jack Reneau... but because they are not world record contenders they slide through... there are way to many animals scored and recorded each year... and it would be too time consuming for all of them to be gone over with a fine tooth comb... only those that are untra- elite get the kind of scrutiny that the king buck has gotten... kind like a bad call in sports that doesn't make the news until its made in a championship game. If any of those bucks had been a potential world record they might not have gotten under the radar.

[erussell]

Good info thanks for clearing it up. Little shananigans going on it looks like on the owner/hunters part.

[ny hunter]

NY ANTLER great info thanks.

[Bow Hunter Addict]

Its amazing how things get complicated when money is a factor.......

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Very interesting read. I jknow they are scoring based on what an Ideal and perfect set of antlers would be but I have always wondered why at least non typical reacks are not scored by the shear amout of antler there is. I have seen some of these monster non typicals that leave a lot of personal opinion by the scorers....which one is the main beam and such. You would think with all of todays technology and laser scanning options a set of antlers could be measured to the nats a$$

[nyantler]

Very interesting read. I jknow they are scoring based on what an Ideal and perfect set of antlers would be but I have always wondered why at least non typical reacks are not scored by the shear amout of antler there is. I have seen some of these monster non typicals that leave a lot of personal opinion by the scorers....which one is the main beam and such. You would think with all of todays technology and laser scanning options a set of antlers could be measured to the nats a$$

I guess it's just that the B&C scoring system has been around so long.. and they were the first to start recording exceptional animals... and actually... nontypicals are kind of score for shear amount of antler... when a buck is scored as a non-typical... the abnormal points are added to the final typical score... that is why the non-typical world record is much higher than the typical world record... I think there is confusion about the king buck being scored as a non-typical rack.. it was not... it was scored as a typical with an abnormal point... that is the reason that the "abnormal point" was a deduction.... I bet that no matter what new scoring method is adopted, there will still be those that don't like it and will complain that it isn't fair... it's just the human way... somebody always feels like they are getting the shaft, even when they are not..

[nyantler]

Its amazing how things get complicated when money is a factor.......

There is no money involved in being a measurer.. no measurers get paid for their services... the only money involved would be any money made by the owners of the racks, given to them by companies exploiting them trying to get a boost for advertising purposes... The NYS Big Buck Club is made entirely of volunteers... who do not.. or should I say?... "should not"... be getting paid to score a rack.. they do it because they enjoy it... most problems are caused by hunters that are more interested in their 15 minutes of fame rather than having the buck preserved for future hunters to enjoy... NYSBBC has one interest and that is to record the exceptional bucks in NYS to be remembered forever and most hunters would think thats a good thing... the scores just help reflect the bucks position as it relates to other exceptional bucks ... it is not meant to be a contest of any kind... I think the hunters have created any of the competition... if it exists..we only need give the hunter recognition as a means to get the buck recorded... period. The truth is that over time most will forget the hunter .. but will usually remember their buck.

Edited June 26, 2012 by nyantler