Scott Walker Stays?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On Projet Labor Agreement jobs....where the Govt that was elected by the union vote says it has to be. More welfare!!

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Culver, have you ever seen a PLA job for a private building? I can't recall any. I can recall some "open shop" projects with mixed crews.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Mossberg 350K

I have seen it from the private side. most of those are in projects that have some public funding or in states where the govt will hold them hostage in the permitting/developement process. I will have to google it but I think even Walmart has had their arm twisted on a few occassions and went the PLA route. It is welfare and extortion. plain and simple.

[greenecounty]

That is because the cure is worse than the disease now. We used to have economic downturns but our government didn't try to solve them by printing trillions in worthless dollars and sprinkling them around the country under the guise of a "stimulus".

the cure is the 10+ years of the 2 stage deleveraging process (1st phase is consumer and private sector paying off their over leveraged personal balance sheets - 2nd phase is govts (laughable)). people get really pissed after not realizing 40 years of debt induced growth needs to be cyclically wound down and it will not happen immediately. QE and stimulus helps people feel better in the typical "this needs to happen now" but all it really does is hide the data that we are in a deleveraging depression period

[adirondackbushwhack]

Don't insult the members on this site with this BS. Who in their right mind would strike if your making a better salary and benefits to your counter parts in the private sector. When we get the unemployment numbers each week 99.99% come from the private sector and not the public sector unions bailed out by the federal gov't and state gov't. I ask you who bails out the hundreds of thousands on unemployment people.

Why is it such a big deal if a teacher gets laid off but not when the parents in that school district lose their jobs. Where is the equality of jobs why is one deemed better than the other that the gov't would bail out the teachers and not the accountant, mechanic,etc.

Your anger is misdirected. Unions and the everyday people who are members of them do not do the hiring or the firing. Do you believe that the unions are in charge and it is the politicians who are the victims of the unions? Should we believe that the unions FORCED the politicians to hire large numbers of people? Forced the politicians to pay more and more? Should we believe that the poor politicians who are the ones in charge are only innocent victims in this whole thing? Don't you think it's just a little bit funny that the government cries fowl against the unions (made up of everyday working people) and at the same time increases spending in other areas? Don't ya think its funny that eveyday people in the unions are a waste of money but political patronage no show jobs are not? Don't ya find it a little odd that everyday people who work for 25 or 30 years are thieves for getting a pension but politicians who serve for one term and get paid for life are heros?

There are a lot of governement employees. Too many; government has gotten too large. The unions didn't make it so though. Teachers are a small percentage of government employees. Teachers for the most part are good people; they are our friends and neighbors and most people, maybe including you, thought of them in that way until the government/media complex started it's campaign against them. Maybe you might recall a time before the government/media campaign against teachers when you had a different feeling for them? They are stil the same people they were before. The same is true for the police, firemen, custodians, engineers, road crews, office workers, grounds keepers, sewer workers, garbage men, and all of the rest of the union workers that the government media complex is guiding your anger towards.

As the public sector pay goes down those people will seek work in the private sector because the pay will be better. It already is now in most cases but the benefits in the public sector swayed many to work there. As the demand for private sector jobs increases the pay will decrease accordingly.

As far as BS goes I'm concerned that if you haven't heard something from one media outlet or another you will automatically consider it as BS. Instead I'd ask that you consider all perspectives instead of closing your mind to anything but one or two possibilites that you may hear from the news. In the end ALL perspectives are only partial perspectives and in the case of the media those perspectives, I'm sad to say, are directed for a purpose.

[adirondackbushwhack]

I'd like to hear someone give me one single reason public unions were even allowed to begin with!

I'll answer. They were allowed becuse this used to be a free country. They were needed because workers were being mistreated by the politicians just as the private sector workers were being mistreated by thier bosses when they were ALLOWED to form unions for their protection.

[virgil]

I'll answer. They were allowed becuse this used to be a free country. They were needed because workers were being mistreated by the politicians just as the private sector workers were being mistreated by thier bosses when they were ALLOWED to form unions for their protection.

That would've been my guess- they were formed to protect the workers from the big mean government. And now, the government is being applauded for beating back the big bad union. Next, in a couple of years, we'll be hearing about how the big bad government balanced it's books on the backs of it's lowly employees.

[adirondackbushwhack]

You hit the nail on the head. I think it's for politicians to pander and promise the union better benefits which turns into votes.

I should only like to point out that only about half of those eligible to vote actually do so; and most importantly; those who do vote can only choose between those two candidates that the two parties allow them to vote on.

[adirondackbushwhack]

I'll answer. They were allowed becuse this used to be a free country. They were needed because workers were being mistreated by the politicians just as the private sector workers were being mistreated by thier bosses when they were ALLOWED to form unions for their protection.

That would've been my guess- they were formed to protect the workers from the big mean government. And now, the government is being applauded for beating back the big bad union. Next, in a couple of years, we'll be hearing about how the big bad government balanced it's books on the backs of it's lowly employees.

That would be nice but I'm of the oppinion that our government in its current form is not capable of balancing the books. No, instead I'm thinking that the money taken from the workers will be spent in another area.

[Dave]

Your anger is misdirected. Unions and the everyday people who are members of them do not do the hiring or the firing. Do you believe that the unions are in charge and it is the politicians who are the victims of the unions? Should we believe that the unions FORCED the politicians to hire large numbers of people? Forced the politicians to pay more and more? Should we believe that the poor politicians who are the ones in charge are only innocent victims in this whole thing? Don't you think it's just a little bit funny that the government cries fowl against the unions (made up of everyday working people) and at the same time increases spending in other areas? Don't ya think its funny that eveyday people in the unions are a waste of money but political patronage no show jobs are not? Don't ya find it a little odd that everyday people who work for 25 or 30 years are thieves for getting a pension but politicians who serve for one term and get paid for life are heros?

There are a lot of governement employees. Too many; government has gotten too large. The unions didn't make it so though. Teachers are a small percentage of government employees. Teachers for the most part are good people; they are our friends and neighbors and most people, maybe including you, thought of them in that way until the government/media complex started it's campaign against them. Maybe you might recall a time before the government/media campaign against teachers when you had a different feeling for them? They are stil the same people they were before. The same is true for the police, firemen, custodians, engineers, road crews, office workers, grounds keepers, sewer workers, garbage men, and all of the rest of the union workers that the government media complex is guiding your anger towards.

As the public sector pay goes down those people will seek work in the private sector because the pay will be better. It already is now in most cases but the benefits in the public sector swayed many to work there. As the demand for private sector jobs increases the pay will decrease accordingly.

As far as BS goes I'm concerned that if you haven't heard something from one media outlet or another you will automatically consider it as BS. Instead I'd ask that you consider all perspectives instead of closing your mind to anything but one or two possibilites that you may hear from the news. In the end ALL perspectives are only partial perspectives and in the case of the media those perspectives, I'm sad to say, are directed for a purpose.

Sounds like the same old party line. Not my fault!!!!!!! Reguardless who has hired these public union members they are the problem. We just can't afford them at these salarise and benefit packages. You make it sound like the tax payers are ill informed, not true we just have to look at our school tax bill each year and we know exactly what's going on. 85% of taxes goes to teachers salaries and benefits 15% to our kids education. Seems more like a the school systems were designed for the benefit of the teachers and the administration than the children. Just follow the money. That's why Walker won in WI, you can't win with these teachers they are gready. Take Chicago they were offered 2% raises and now they are talking about a strike. Not to mention the Chicago school system is in debt for 800 million dollars. Just real good people, no just greedy teachers lining their pockets at the taxpayers expense. Peddle your BS some where else, you are so blind you can't see the problem right in front of you. If we don't have the money we can't pay got it.!!!!!!

[adkbuck]

I agree with you Dave!

[wooffer]

You guys are missing one more point. Government employees (and teachers) get a raise every year. Even when the newspapers report that the teachers in your district don't get a raise, they get a raise. The annual raise called a "step increase". In our district it is 3.8% every year, no matter what. They can also get an additional raise atop of the step increase. The Federal employees are compensated the same way.

The teachers in WI fixed themselves because they are a bunch of greedy fools. They showed the public the caliber of teachers today when they rioted and looted their own state capital building. Don't confuse teachers today with those from before.

[Grizz1219]

[adirondackbushwhack]

Sounds like the same old party line. Not my fault!!!!!!! Reguardless who has hired these public union members they are the problem. We just can't afford them at these salarise and benefit packages. You make it sound like the tax payers are ill informed, not true we just have to look at our school tax bill each year and we know exactly what's going on. 85% of taxes goes to teachers salaries and benefits 15% to our kids education. Seems more like a the school systems were designed for the benefit of the teachers and the administration than the children. Just follow the money. That's why Walker won in WI, you can't win with these teachers they are gready. Take Chicago they were offered 2% raises and now they are talking about a strike. Not to mention the Chicago school system is in debt for 800 million dollars. Just real good people, no just greedy teachers lining their pockets at the taxpayers expense. Peddle your BS some where else, you are so blind you can't see the problem right in front of you. If we don't have the money we can't pay got it.!!!!!!

Wow! I really did a poor job of expressing myself. I am as anti-party as they come.

So I also might have something else wrong because I had always thought that the kids education came from the teachers. That is to say, the teachers do the actual educating and so to say that only 15% of the budget goes to actual education is confusing to me. If the education doesn't come from the teachers what is this other 15% that you speak of that does the actual educateing?

Actually my take on Walker winning is because the government/media complex is still in control of the people. Ha, hows that for anti party?

Personal attacks mearly point out the weaknes in the attackers perspective. That is to say, if ones perspective is valid they need not resort to such things. Sabe?

[adirondackbushwhack]

Come on guys teachers are NOT the only union members even if they are being targeted by the pols right now.

[Dave]

Wow! I really did a poor job of expressing myself. I am as anti-party as they come.

So I also might have something else wrong because I had always thought that the kids education came from the teachers. That is to say, the teachers do the actual educating and so to say that only 15% of the budget goes to actual education is confusing to me. If the education doesn't come from the teachers what is this other 15% that you speak of that does the actual educateing?

Actually my take on Walker winning is because the government/media complex is still in control of the people. Ha, hows that for anti party?

Personal attacks mearly point out the weaknes in the attackers perspective. That is to say, if ones perspective is valid they need not resort to such things. Sabe?

I think you have missed the point. Again if we don't have the money we can't pay for these over inflated teachers salaries and benefits. When these union workers retire with more money than the taxpayers that are still working full time something is wrong. When teachers retire making in excess of $80,000 a year, town sanitation works less than 5 hours a day and get full time pay and benefits something is wrong. When county police retire making over $100,000 a year and also receive hundreds of thousand dollars for unused sick and vacation time something is wrong. Where does it stop???????? When local library workers start off with 27 days vacation something is wrong. It took me 25 years to get 4 weeks vacation. When you can pad the overtime your last year to inflate your pension something is wrong. Do you get it now, if not you are the problem.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Sounds like the same old party line. Not my fault!!!!!!! Reguardless who has hired these public union members they are the problem. We just can't afford them at these salarise and benefit packages. You make it sound like the tax payers are ill informed, not true we just have to look at our school tax bill each year and we know exactly what's going on. 85% of taxes goes to teachers salaries and benefits 15% to our kids education. Seems more like a the school systems were designed for the benefit of the teachers and the administration than the children. Just follow the money. That's why Walker won in WI, you can't win with these teachers they are gready. Take Chicago they were offered 2% raises and now they are talking about a strike. Not to mention the Chicago school system is in debt for 800 million dollars. Just real good people, no just greedy teachers lining their pockets at the taxpayers expense. Peddle your BS some where else, you are so blind you can't see the problem right in front of you. If we don't have the money we can't pay got it.!!!!!!

I had forgot to mention that I am for reduction in government across the board and as such reducton in spending as well. I think it's kind of odd that the government can expand itself while at the same time argueing that they cannot afford the union contracts.

So, you and I are in agreement that government is spending too much. Our only disagreemnet is in who is at fault. From what I gather you believe that the teachers are the fault that government spends too much money while I'm of the belief that it is the politicians fault that the government spends too much money. Actualy I've over simplified both views for convienience but you get my drift.

[Dave]

I had forgot to mention that I am for reduction in government across the board and as such reducton in spending as well. I think it's kind of odd that the government can expand itself while at the same time argueing that they cannot afford the union contracts.

So, you and I are in agreement that government is spending too much. Our only disagreemnet is in who is at fault. From what I gather you believe that the teachers are the fault that government spends too much money while I'm of the belief that it is the politicians fault that the government spends too much money. Actualy I've over simplified both views for convienience but you get my drift.

Individually and personally I have no fault with the people in these jobs. My objection is in the whole prosses that allows these salaries and benefit. That is what is totally out of control giving out taxpayer money that we can't afford to pay. Why should the public sector have better salarise and benefits than the private sector? Especially when it's all funded by the private sector. That is my main issue!!!!!!!!!

[adirondackbushwhack]

I think you have missed the point. Again if we don't have the money we can't pay for these over inflated teachers salaries and benefits. When these union workers retire with more money than the taxpayers that are still working full time something is wrong. When teachers retire making in excess of $80,000 a year, town sanitation works less than 5 hours a day and get full time pay and benefits something is wrong. When county police retire making over $100,000 a year and also receive hundreds of thousand dollars for unused sick and vacation time something is wrong. Where does it stop???????? When local library workers start off with 27 days vacation something is wrong. It took me 25 years to get 4 weeks vacation. When you can pad the overtime your last year to inflate your pension something is wrong. Do you get it now, if not you are the problem.

Dave I haven't missed the point at all and in fact I agree that we cannot continue to out spend our resources but where we part company is who is to blame. I personally have never heard of any cop retireing at over $100,000.00 a year or getting hundreds of thousands in sick and vacation time so I have to believe that is a, lets say, special circumstance. I'll bet ya never hear mention by your source those cops making less than $30,000.00 a year while actually working and also paying into their health insurance too. You see Dave for each individual insatnce you can put forth there is another like the one I have put forth. The sanitation guy 5 hours a dayn isn't anything new and in fact is low level stuff compared to many of the other political patronage jobs many of which pay in excess of $100,000.00 a year for working 2 or 3 days a year. The common thread through all of it isn't the teachers or cops but is instead the politicians.

You also seem a little resentful that others have more than you. 4 weeks vacation isn't much but it is the job you took. Some folks have more vacation time than you and some folks have less. I'm thinking a better way to think isn't to bring others down to your level but to bring yourself up to theirs. Just my oppinion.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Individually and personally I have no fault with the people in these jobs. My objection is in the whole prosses that allows these salaries and benefit. That is what is totally out of control giving out taxpayer money that we can't afford to pay. Why should the public sector have better salarise and benefits than the private sector? Especially when it's all funded by the private sector. That is my main issue!!!!!!!!!

I can agree with that. That is in fact where I have been trying to point the blame. Not with the unions but with those politicians that actually agree to the contracts that you object to. They (the politicians) are the process that allows the objectionable salaries.

[Dave]

Dave I haven't missed the point at all and in fact I agree that we cannot continue to out spend our resources but where we part company is who is to blame. I personally have never heard of any cop retireing at over $100,000.00 a year or getting hundreds of thousands in sick and vacation time so I have to believe that is a, lets say, special circumstance. I'll bet ya never hear mention by your source those cops making less than $30,000.00 a year while actually working and also paying into their health insurance too. You see Dave for each individual insatnce you can put forth there is another like the one I have put forth. The sanitation guy 5 hours a dayn isn't anything new and in fact is low level stuff compared to many of the other political patronage jobs many of which pay in excess of $100,000.00 a year for working 2 or 3 days a year. The common thread through all of it isn't the teachers or cops but is instead the politicians.

You also seem a little resentful that others have more than you. 4 weeks vacation isn't much but it is the job you took. Some folks have more vacation time than you and some folks have less. I'm thinking a better way to think isn't to bring others down to your level but to bring yourself up to theirs. Just my oppinion.

I am not sure where you live but here on the Island these are not isolated statistics. Our cops make about $125,000 a year, teachers making close to the same depending on years of service. Our santation workers make in excess of $80,000 a year. So I know of what I speak. My local taxes are aboutn $14,000 and still going up I think I am paying my fair share if not more. I am in no way resentful just making a comparison. The job I took I would do it again , but my overtime was never computed in my retirement neither was my sick or vacation. This is how it is in the private sector, we are in business to make a profit not so for the public unions. They make no money and therefore no profit and are the biggest burden on the tax payers. I and many others feel these jobs can be done for less, and should eliminate overtime, sick, and vacation pay in their pension calculation. If there is so much sick time and vacation not taken during a carreer than we are giving to much vacation time, as for sick time it's for being sick, not for being healthy. I hope this makes some sense to you, but it should make sense to the politicians who give these generous benefits and also the unions who bargain for these benefits. Remember the old campaign that said "JUST SAY NO"

[adirondackbushwhack]

now let me ask ya this. With ALL of the taxes we pay why can't they afford to pay those salaries and then some?

[Dave]

now let me ask ya this. With ALL of the taxes we pay why can't they afford to pay those salaries and then some?

LET ME ASK YOU THIS " ARE YOU NUT'S"

[adirondackbushwhack]

I am not sure where you live but here on the Island these are not isolated statistics. Our cops make about $125,000 a year, teachers making close to the same depending on years of service. Our santation workers make in excess of $80,000 a year. So I know of what I speak. My local taxes are aboutn $14,000 and still going up I think I am paying my fair share if not more. I am in no way resentful just making a comparison. The job I took I would do it again , but my overtime was never computed in my retirement neither was my sick or vacation. This is how it is in the private sector, we are in business to make a profit not so for the public unions. They make no money and therefore no profit and are the biggest burden on the tax payers. I and many others feel these jobs can be done for less, and should eliminate overtime, sick, and vacation pay in their pension calculation. If there is so much sick time and vacation not taken during a carreer than we are giving to much vacation time, as for sick time it's for being sick, not for being healthy. I hope this makes some sense to you, but it should make sense to the politicians who give these generous benefits and also the unions who bargain for these benefits. Remember the old campaign that said "JUST SAY NO"

Sorry Dave I didn't see this when I posted my last.

Yep your getting screwed!!! I live up state and I'm getting screwed too. Here they take some of our taxes and send them down state to pay for stuff down there because the people who live down state can't afford it. I wouldn't be at all surprized if some of those people you are complaining of are getting some of my money too.

Of course you believe that sombody elses job can be done for less. Yours can be done for less too.

Edited June 8, 2012 by adirondackbushwhack

[adirondackbushwhack]

LET ME ASK YOU THIS " ARE YOU NUT'S"

Ha! Nice! vary eloquent and thoughful.

A broader mind might have replied "why yes bushwhack they could certainly afford those salaries with all that we pay if they were not wasteing our money at every turn in other ways too". But you've managed to narrow it down to something that the political types might find less offensive.