Breaking news . . .

[First-light]

If you watch the video do you see something odd in there? Take a good look, it's not about the shooter or police,

it's about a reaction of a certain person.

[Grouse]

New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said Johnson was fired from his job at Hazan Imports, a women's handbag company with offices near the Empire State Building, about a year ago, and that he shot and killed the firm's office manager, Steve Ercolino. The two men were involved in a dispute involving allegations of harassment, Kelly said.

Johnson was dressed in a suit and tie and carrying a briefcase when he opened fire with a .45 caliber handgun just after 9 a.m. on a crowded street in midtown Manhattan. After Ercolino was dead, Johnson aimed his weapon at police and was killed in a hail of gunfire by officers, the NYPD said.

The New York Fire Department said 8 people were transported to area hospitals for injuries related to the shootings. Many of those injured appear to have been hit by bullets or shrapnel from shots FIRED BY POLICE, Kelly said. All of the injured are expected to survive.

(This ain't the first time NYC cops have killed bystanders or unarmed people. I do not say this to bash all cops, I say it to point out the fact there are a lot who don't do their job well. I know what I speak of. I work in the NY State Criminal Justice Dept)

[greybeard]

grouse... There was a time when republicans were for law enforcement.. You guys sure have changed.. In fact you sound exactly like some of my liberal friends when they criticize law enforcement based on what they read. I've had many disagreements with them on issues such as this. They'll be happy that you joined them. I guess there's a new party coming... the new liberal republican ..Ronald Reagan is turning in his grave... I guess you're not a Rudy G. supporter..

I have had a lot of experience in dealing with NYC cops, and knew many of them and disagree with your analysis.

Please answer me this.. What law enforcement experience do you have ? If you have any was it in a big city like NYC ? I really think that you should back your opinion with first hand knowledge and from YOUR experiences in enforcing the law.

How many fugitives have you arrested ? How many arrest warrants for violent criminals have you enforced ? How many armed suspects have you encountered ? etc. etc.

It's easy to pass judgement when you have the luxury of not being there. People with carry permits are not required to enforce the law and can walk away, they strap on a gun by choice.

In addition,for those who are against ALL gun control, look around the city.. go to all the different neighborhoods day, or night, but nights are better, and tell me that you want ALL of the residents to carry legal firearms. If all guns are easily legally obtained YOU can't decide who YOU think should have one. EVERYONE is EVERYONE.. you don't chose..

Everyone wants smaller gov't these days so tell me who's going to do backgrounds on millions of people who want guns. Imagine how long you'd wait for a permit...also what an expense.. I thought the new term was (T)axed (E)nough (A)lready Do you propose no background checks ? There's a lot of thugs (old term), who'd like that

[Grouse]

Shooter targets one individual shoots him in the head then shoots 4 more times in the victim's dead body. Then walks away. The cops on scene approach perp and he draws a gun from HAND BAG (?) and they blast away killing him and wounding 9 others (bystanders). The perp only shot 5 rounds all point blank and all into his target..if you listen to the media they make it sound like the perp sprayed the crowd with auto fire...

I'm all for law enforcement, but this type of thing makes all law enforcement look bad. You gotta point out problems in order to fix them. You ignore them at your own peril. I know hundreds of cops, many very good, many very bad. Another problem in law enforcement is good cops will not report bad ones. I'm an old guy. I saw the Serpico era first hand. That's all I'm gonna say about my first hand knowledge.

Training is simply shooting at paper and scoring well enough to pass. That doesn't prepare cops for something like this. I feel very sorry for the victims, but not for any cop that shot one of them. This is going to get very ugly and very expensive for NYC.

[greybeard]

Grouse.. I was typing my reply when you wrote in your last post...

My question still is do YOU have law enforcement background, making arrests, executing warrants, etc. in a big city. Do you have frequent personal dealings with the NYPD ?

There are people from all walks of life that don't do their jobs well.I would not defend all people from any job.including NYPD, but my experience is that overall they do a very good job in very tough conditions

[Sogaard]

I'd love to see you put on a badge and see how calm and collected you are when an armed killer draws his weapon and starts firing at you from 8 feet away.

And even better, you say police, who go through many hours of training, are not trained well enough to handle firefights in crowded areas, but you expect civies, who have ZERO training to do a better job.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the logic there. Feel free to enlighten me.

[Grouse]

Shooting bystanders is never excusable, period. Might as well let the perp do it. Your sidearm is for self defense, that goes for cops as well as CCW holders. Years ago you had a wheelgun and 6 shots. You trained to make them count. Now they have a semi with at least 12 to 16 rounds. Aimed fire has lost out. Kelly knows it. Bloomberg knows it too. Their lack of attention to this problem will now become another headache they will have to deal with. Criticize me all you want, but the problem ain't being addressed. Remember Amadu Dialo? Cost the city millions. Nothing changed.

Don't ask me to reply to this issue anymore. Most things I cannot discuss. The rest don't deserve a reply. I'm done here.

[First-light]

I have to agree with Grouse on this. Just seems a bit over the top for cops to shoot that many rounds. The guy was hit and going down. It's a tough job and i wouldn't want to do it, I give the a lot of credit. I spend 5 days a week in the city for the last 20 years, the police force is not what it used to be. I'll leave it at that..............

[Sogaard]

And even better, you say police, who go through many hours of training, are not trained well enough to handle firefights in crowded areas, but you expect civies, who have ZERO training to do a better job.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the logic there. Feel free to enlighten me.

So...no response to the above then? Thought so.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Sogaard

[Sogaard]

I also have a firm belief that the 12lb trigger leads to some of the inaccuracy in stressful situations.

[greybeard]

I agree that shooting civilians is not acceptable even though it's bound to happen in some situations.

I don't think that we should base opinions on the media reports. I'd rather see whet IAD, and the NY District Attorney say.

Many times , as we all know the media is wrong.

I've read and heard that people disagreed with the George Zimmerman reports on the news because it didn't report what they thought it should because it affected gun rights. even though an unarmed young person was shot. ( We'll see what happens there now that there will be a trial.) So in my opinion we should wait for an official investigation before judging the PD.

[ny hunter]

Does anyone remember at the beginning of the summer 2 cops shot at a perp over 70 times hitting him only 14 times.It is a long standing joke that city cops can not shoot.....And the guy lived.....

[Deerthug]

NYPD confirmed that all 9 wounded were from police firearms. Also interesting to note the two cops were veterans who never fired their weapons in the line of duty. Hmmmmm....... you think they need more training in realistic scenarios?

[shawnhu]

NYC cops - quantity over quality, period.