solution to antler restrictions

[steve863]

I likely see more bucks each year than most hunters yet there are many years that I choose not to shoot a buck. I don't know how many bucks were able to age another year or to be shot by another hunter as a result of the approach I take to hunting. So who is more selfish the hunter who goes about it in a similar manner to me or the hunter who blasts the first spike horn they see,who has done more for the deer herd and the hunting community at large?

I know the answer no need to answer this.

I bet you know the answer!  Why is it selfish to kill that spike??  How do YOUR theories help the herd and exactly what have you done for the hunting community?? The state wants deer shot and they could care less what the age of the deer is when it gets taken out of the population.  The guy killing that spike is participating in the population reduction that the state needs.  YOU fellas are the selfish ones where you want everyone to hunt the way YOU want to hunt and want people to pass up younger deer so YOU can hopefully have bigger ones to shoot.  How could the people who simply want everyone to hunt any way they wish be more selfish then YOU boys who want to put more restrictions on what people should be allowed to shoot??  Your point makes absolutely NO sense.  People buy hunting licenses in hopes of bagging a deer.  In general they don't buy licenses to look at deer and wave goodbye to them for a few years until they grow bigger.  You can look and wave at deer without purchasing a hunting license.  If YOU want to pass up deer for 20 years until that buck of a lifetime walks in front of you, that is your choice.  Don't for a minute think that everyone should be making the same choice. 

[TheHunter]

Animal husbandry is in fact a science, and there is no reason not to apply sound breeding practices to our free ranging herd of white-tailed deer in NY. In many areas hunters often observe fewer deer than meets their satisfaction and it’s easy to blame this on a number of things. We must not overlook the fact that every time a NY hunter pulls the trigger or releases an arrow, he or she is making a decision that will determine the herd’s characteristics for the next season. When a poor buck-to-doe ratio exists, we will experience a trickle rut. A breeding chronology that is extended as it appears to the case in some areas of NY is something that hunters can control. Only our stubborn adherence to outdated hunting traditions that results in annually clear-cutting the yearling buck population prevents us from refining deer breeding ecology.

Yearling bucks are capable breeders, and DNA analysis has shown that in white-tailed deer populations with a well-balanced age structure, yearlings will breed about 1/3 of the does. However, in unbalanced herds such as NY and other northeastern states with a poor buck age structure, yearlings by default are forced to conduct the bulk of the breeding over an extended period of time. This immature age class of male animals with the smallest physical stature, the poorest stored fat reserves, and the most inept breeding behaviors are forced to be the primary breeders over a needlessly long breeding season. It defies the basic logic of animal husbandry practices, yet is a time-honored scenario that currently plays out every fall, to the chronic long term detriment of overall deer herd health in NY.

[burmjohn]

woo whooo a spindly horned 8 point that weighs 124 pounds!!!! hahaha

I have said before, AR's are a fine voluntary program.

Our neighbor last year took a beautiful 2.5 (best guess was a 2.5) 8 pointer, field dressed at 179 pounds.  He has one of those hanging scales in his garage.  The other deer his son got was a 9 pointer, dressed at 165 pounds. This was in an AR area (3J). I actually saw the 8 during bow last year a few times, he was well out of my range.

[burmjohn]

How do YOUR theories help the herd and exactly what have you done for the hunting community?? The state wants deer shot and they could care less what the age of the deer is when it gets taken out of the population.  The guy killing that spike is participating in the population reduction that the state needs. 

The state does control deer population reduced through hunting, however population control is not their ONLY concern.

[Doewhacker]

woo whooo a spindly horned 8 point that weighs 124 pounds!!!! hahaha

I have said before, AR's are a fine voluntary program.

Our neighbor last year took a beautiful 2.5 (best guess was a 2.5) 8 pointer, field dressed at 179 pounds.  He has one of those hanging scales in his garage.  The other deer his son got was a 9 pointer, dressed at 165 pounds. This was in an AR area (3J). I actually saw the 8 during bow last year a few times, he was well out of my range.

Guess's don't count for much, I could guess that same deer was 4.5...get my point?

Either way good for them on making a clean kill.

[burmjohn]

Guess's don't count for much, I could guess that same deer was 4.5...get my point?

Either way good for them on making a clean kill.

I should have said "Estimate" was 2.5 - None the less, these opportunities were not there few years ago in this area to see let alone hunt and harvest.

[Doewhacker]

ah yes but there were in fact bucks there before other wise the doe would never have fawns..but I digress, I don't think any one was disputing that fact that AR's are at least some what effective. It remains an issue of freedom of choice for me and alot of other guys here.

[jimbodwb]

What I find to be amusing is that AR stands for "Antler RESTRICTION" yet from what I have read on most hunting forum sites is that most people are totally against any form of government restrictions but completely in favor of AR's. Wouldn't that make them hypocrites. I guess restrictions are OK if they benefit your personal agenda but not good for the general population. The goal of hunting is to reduce the herd #'s so the streets are not overrun with wild animals. Sure I like to shoot a bigger deer but I have seen some real big spikes, forks, and even does. Last year I saw 3 bucks in a field and the 2 fork horns were both bigger than the 6 point that was with them. According to AR logic, if they were in range which they were not, I would have to shoot the smallest of the 3 for it to be legal. How does this make any sense.

AR's do not work and are not fair to the everyday hunter. I know the argument I will get is "how is it fair for the hunter that wants to shoot a big racked deer if another hunter can shoot it when it is still small". The reason it is fair is because that is a personal choice to only want to shoot big racked deer and you legally can do that without AR's but for the hunter that just wants to enjoy their time in the field and hopefully get a shot at any deer would not have the choice if there were AR's in place and that is not fair.

[steve863]

What I find to be amusing is that AR stands for "Antler RESTRICTION" yet from what I have read on most hunting forum sites is that most people are totally against any form of government restrictions but completely in favor of AR's. Wouldn't that make them hypocrites. I guess restrictions are OK if they benefit your personal agenda but not good for the general population.

Yeah, it sure is amusing! I will be the first to accept that living under ANY government we will have all sorts of restrictions.  Some we may like and some we may not.  The AR's however do nothing other than benefit one segment of hunters at the expense of another.  In a pastime like hunting where hunter numbers have been steadily decreasing this is not a good thing. 

[TheHunter]

Steve863, that's your opinion.  AR's can and do benefit things other then hunters who wish to give the 1.5's an opportunity to mature.  I am sure there are a few deer that are not 1.5's that are protected by AR, just as there are some 1.5's that are not protected by AR.

[burmjohn]

ah yes but there were in fact bucks there before other wise the doe would never have fawns..but I digress, I don't think any one was disputing that fact that AR's are at least some what effective. It remains an issue of freedom of choice for me and alot of other guys here.

I never said bucks were not there, I said the opportunity for larger bucks was not what it is now.

[Doewhacker]

Right but, you would think that the 2.5+ buck take would have increased a bit more, so far atleast with the info available it has not.

[SplitG2]

Had my neighbor say to me "man all I see is scrub bucks every year and I whish I could see a decent buck"  I replied so you haven't shot a buck in a while? He says, yes I shoot two of those scrub bucks I see every year"  I said well how are you going to get those scrub bucks to grow if you shoot them?  He had nothing to say   I can see how hunters can be against ar and very happy with shooting anything but I have seen it first hand that passing up the 1- 2 1/2 year old bucks will allow the age class to increase.

[burmjohn]

Here is the buck harvest data from the DEC for the 3H WMU, its all the data they offer on the site. 2006 was the first year of AR in WMU 3H, which probably accounts for the drop in harvest that year.

Year    Bucks

2006    876

2007    1181

2008    1127

2009    1245

This is 3K

Year    Bucks

2006    656

2007    655

2008    701

2009    569

This is 3C

Year    Bucks

2006    508

2007    490

2008    433

2009    514

This is 3J

WMU    Year    Bucks

3J    2006    712

3J    2007    679

3J    2008    684

3J    2009    797

I am not sure what the 2.5 take was for those numbers.

[Doewhacker]

I don't know either, I was gauging off of the chart on the DEC web site. I know it must be rather hard to gather any concrete data on deer age at the time of kill.

[gipper]

Well doewhacker why are you so against having some public land for the AR hunters to hunt on. Scot is right 65% are for some sort of change.So why wouldn't the DEC want to keep the majority of paying hunters happy.  It probably wouldn't even affect you because you probably hunt posted land.

Its not all about just shooting a bug buck for bragging rights. I enjoy being out in the woods year round and if I shot the firstbuck that walked by I would be home after the first week of the season.

When you go fishing and you catch a walleye that is 1 inch under the size limit are you  bent ou of shape because you can't keep it. Fishing regulations are understood by so many and sportsman don't seem to be unhappy about having size limits for fish. I guess change is difficult for some to understand. Nothng stays the same just remember that doewhacker

[TheHunter]

Well doewhacker why are you so against having some public land for the AR hunters to hunt on. Scot is right 65% are for some sort of change.So why wouldn't the DEC want to keep the majority of paying hunters happy.  It probably wouldn't even affect you because you probably hunt posted land.

Its not all about just shooting a bug buck for bragging rights. I enjoy being out in the woods year round and if I shot the firstbuck that walked by I would be home after the first week of the season.

When you go fishing and you catch a walleye that is 1 inch under the size limit are you  bent ou of shape because you can't keep it. Fishing regulations are understood by so many and sportsman don't seem to be unhappy about having size limits for fish. I guess change is difficult for some to understand. Nothng stays the same just remember that doewhacker

Excellent point.

[Larry]

  Just to let you know that 65% you keep talking about is only 65% of 2.5% of the number of hunters who bought licenses in the area. Sullivan-6786, Ulster-7368 it’s just something else you should mention when you tell people about how 65% are in favor of AR’s.

[MountainHunter]

scot I can see you don't get it, it does not matter if the deer is killed at 1.5 or 5.5, it only matters that the deer is killed. And what exactly do you think you are doing for the hunting community by not shooting a deer? Our jobs as hunters is to kill deer, if we don't do our jobs the DEC already has a list of things to control the deer herd at the ready, its all been studied and documented. Not that I think we are any where near having to worry about that but the point is the DEC needs us to kill deer not name them.

DEC biologist have posted on their web site that there is no biological advantage to AR's, it is merely a social issue, you want to shoot a "big" buck, alot of others don't care about the rack and relish the time spent afeild and any deer taken is a trophy. Determining what deer to take should remain personal choice.. you know land of the free.

I get it just fine,we just have a different take on deer management. Our biologists do not know squat relative to the foremost authorities on whitetail deer management. Less deer allows native plant species to flourish,a more balanced age class of bucks provides more competition for breeding and a narrower and more defined breeding period assuring that fawns will be born earlier and have higher survival rates.

The science supports this.

[MountainHunter]

I likely see more bucks each year than most hunters yet there are many years that I choose not to shoot a buck. I don't know how many bucks were able to age another year or to be shot by another hunter as a result of the approach I take to hunting. So who is more selfish the hunter who goes about it in a similar manner to me or the hunter who blasts the first spike horn they see,who has done more for the deer herd and the hunting community at large?

I know the answer no need to answer this.

I bet you know the answer!  Why is it selfish to kill that spike??  How do YOUR theories help the herd and exactly what have you done for the hunting community?? The state wants deer shot and they could care less what the age of the deer is when it gets taken out of the population.  The guy killing that spike is participating in the population reduction that the state needs.  YOU fellas are the selfish ones where you want everyone to hunt the way YOU want to hunt and want people to pass up younger deer so YOU can hopefully have bigger ones to shoot.  How could the people who simply want everyone to hunt any way they wish be more selfish then YOU boys who want to put more restrictions on what people should be allowed to shoot??  Your point makes absolutely NO sense.  People buy hunting licenses in hopes of bagging a deer.  In general they don't buy licenses to look at deer and wave goodbye to them for a few years until they grow bigger.  You can look and wave at deer without purchasing a hunting license.  If YOU want to pass up deer for 20 years until that buck of a lifetime walks in front of you, that is your choice.  Don't for a minute think that everyone should be making the same choice.

Take a breath there pal. I shoot doe's every year in area's that support their numbers. By letting the small bucks go I am giving two hunters likely a shot at a buck they would not have other wise gotten.I hunt equally in an AR unit and a non AR unit. 65% or so of the hunters polled were in support of AR's the majority spoke and Albany played Super majority politics. That is completely the truth,spin it any way you want. You are in the minority.

[MountainHunter]

Animal husbandry is in fact a science, and there is no reason not to apply sound breeding practices to our free ranging herd of white-tailed deer in NY. In many areas hunters often observe fewer deer than meets their satisfaction and it’s easy to blame this on a number of things. We must not overlook the fact that every time a NY hunter pulls the trigger or releases an arrow, he or she is making a decision that will determine the herd’s characteristics for the next season. When a poor buck-to-doe ratio exists, we will experience a trickle rut. A breeding chronology that is extended as it appears to the case in some areas of NY is something that hunters can control. Only our stubborn adherence to outdated hunting traditions that results in annually clear-cutting the yearling buck population prevents us from refining deer breeding ecology.

Yearling bucks are capable breeders, and DNA analysis has shown that in white-tailed deer populations with a well-balanced age structure, yearlings will breed about 1/3 of the does. However, in unbalanced herds such as NY and other northeastern states with a poor buck age structure, yearlings by default are forced to conduct the bulk of the breeding over an extended period of time. This immature age class of male animals with the smallest physical stature, the poorest stored fat reserves, and the most inept breeding behaviors are forced to be the primary breeders over a needlessly long breeding season. It defies the basic logic of animal husbandry practices, yet is a time-honored scenario that currently plays out every fall, to the chronic long term detriment of overall deer herd health in NY.

There is some intelligence! Very well stated!

[gipper]

Larry the 65% I am talking about that supports QDM was the result of a cornell study that polled hunters in 3 wildlife management areas near Syracuse. I think that is pretty good sample of what he general hunting pop. thinks. Oh well, I think we will agree to disagree  on

this. If you would have asked my what side of the fence I was on 10 years ago I would have been against AR. So I try to be understanding on Both opinions.

[MountainHunter]

Well doewhacker why are you so against having some public land for the AR hunters to hunt on. Scot is right 65% are for some sort of change.So why wouldn't the DEC want to keep the majority of paying hunters happy.  It probably wouldn't even affect you because you probably hunt posted land.

Its not all about just shooting a bug buck for bragging rights. I enjoy being out in the woods year round and if I shot the firstbuck that walked by I would be home after the first week of the season.

When you go fishing and you catch a walleye that is 1 inch under the size limit are you  bent ou of shape because you can't keep it. Fishing regulations are understood by so many and sportsman don't seem to be unhappy about having size limits for fish. I guess change is difficult for some to understand. Nothng stays the same just remember that doewhacker

I love being right! ;D  It scares the bejesus out of some hunters that they may not get their buck. So the most naive deer in the woods,the one and half year old buck gets toasted every year to satisfy their ego. Who has more ego the guy who has to blast a buck every year or the guy willing to go a couple of seasons without shooting a buck?

Former NYS Deer Biologist said it best one year when being acosted by some loud mouth while speaking at a sportsmans club event. He was asked where all the big bucks were,with out skipping a beat he replied they are home in your horn box. You don't get better bucks in an area when you shoot them all at 1 1/2!

[Larry]

I've stated before that i'm for QDM i just don't think it should be force on pepole who don't want it in the form of AR's I think there is room for all in deer hunting its worked for me in the tune of 8 P&Y's. this was the Survey done in zones 3&4 with only 356 responses

[fasteddie]

Let'em go , let'em grow ! They started practicing QDM in Italy Valley about 3 years ago and they are seeing lagre bucks than they had in the past .