Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[Buckstopshere]

How 'bout the NYDEC biologists? There are many others across the states that have reached similar scientific conclusions...

"The proposed antler restriction was designed to protect most yearling (1.5 year old)

bucks from harvest, allowing for greater numbers of bucks in the 2.5 year old age class and likely a small increase in 3.5 year old and older age classes prior to the subsequent hunting seasons. For hunters seeking to see more 2.5 year old bucks, antler restrictions may be effective. However, antler restrictions may be only minimally effective for hunters desiring to take more, older bucks. Data from New York’s current pilot antler restriction program reveals only a minor increase (about 14%) in the average number of 2.5 year old and older bucks harvested after several years of antler restrictions despite a dramatic reduction (about 65%) in average yearling harvest. " NYSDEC answer to the state AR proposal.

"Oh, but that's just wrong." QDM is all about a "balanced herd" and has nothing to do with big racks.  :-X

Who is sticking up for the 2.5 year old bucks, that minimum AR...buck that everybody shoots? I think they are the ones that need the pressure taken off...by shooting the yearlings that aren't going to be there anyways.

[hrlevi1]

I think there's a village somewhere missing their idiot!

[nyantler]

How about that is not a true qdm AR plan (3 on a side) that protects ALL yearlings... not even remotely the same as  good qdm program... if you start calling that a true AR then... one 3" antler is an AR plan that doesn't workj for big bucks either.. We're talking here about an qdm type AR that protects all yearlings. The DEC study in those WMU's doesn't qualify.

If you read thoroughly, it says " For hunters seeking to see more 2.5 year old bucks, antler restrictions may be effective." That refers to this particular AR plan which is not the same as a good qdm AR. But, even that AR produced a whole other age class.. of older bucks.

And for the record, a passed on 1.5 year old still gets older when he moves to another property

[SteveB]

  I do think the idiot who kills several spikes and crotches each season needs to be dealt with.

Anyone shooting "several" bucks each year needs to be dealt with as a the poacher they are.

[nyantler]

Absolutely Steve!

[cwhite]

Buckstophere, Rather than improving the older bucks odds of surviving the winter on the backs of the yearling bucks, why don't you advocate killing more of the old miserable does?  They eat just as much as a yearling buck.

I am having trouble following your numbers and logic.  14.5% is a pretty large increase if you ask me.  Would you consider a 14.5% pay cut significant.  How about a 14.5% pay raise?  No one who understands deer hunting will expect the percentages of 2+ year olds to match the decline in yearling harvests.  This plan allows for most deer transform from a teenage boys with raging hormones looking to hump just about anything that will stand from October to January into a more mature acting college graduate who understands what a breeding season and a hunting season is.  Obviously the numbers won't match up because they are smarter and harder to kill.  Doesn't mean that they aren't there. 

Being that winter mortality concerns you so much, what do you do to improve their winter habitat? 

[nyantler]

good post cw..

[bubba]

hey cw we are practucally neighbors.

[cwhite]

  I do think the idiot who kills several spikes and crotches each season needs to be dealt with.

Anyone shooting "several" bucks each year needs to be dealt with as a the poacher they are.

Welcome to the northern NY.  It seems like a passage to manhood to kill as many bucks as fast as one can.  To hell with the future and live in the present is the attitude.  I hate to admit it, but I fell into this mentality for a while when I first started to be a succesfull hunter.  I realized my ignorance and am trying to make up for it by educating people of the benefits of a balanced herd.  Things are starting to change slowly as more guys are passing on babies and letting them grow up. 

Don't get me wrong.  I feel each hunter is entitled to take a legal buck/deer and I won't look down or think less of them if they do.  If a single 3" spike is all a person has a chance at and takes him then I shake their hands and congratulate them on their success. 

Bubba, where you from?

[Buckstopshere]

cwhite: Hey, at least my perspective on this issue got you to chime in! 

No, shooting the old long-nosed does is like shooting your decoys (not that it hasn't been done!) The old gals bring in the bucks and hold them there. The breeders and the periphery (satellite) bucks. That is until we get to the bow/'loader season. That's when I it is best to shoot does...but you have to be careful and not shoot bucks that have dropped their horns.

Beg to differ with your analogy, but as it is, when we protect yearlings and shoot 2.5 year olds, it is like protecting jr. high school kids vs. high school kids and 3.5 year olds might be college age. Bucks aren't mature until 5.5 or 6.5, right?

I spend the winter trimming trees and brush, freeing up and trimming old apple trees, and dropping trees for sanctuary cover...it's a good workout too. But where did I say that's a concern? You must be ESPN

[nyantler]

Any doe will bring in a horny buck.. killing an older doe just makes room for the younger does to come up and take her place... without the young one there is no deer to take her place.

[cwhite]

Buck,  You must have missed my earlier post where I state that we take our does after the rut.  We keep them to draw out bucks during the rut.  This also gives their fawns the best chance at survival too.  We carefully monitor our herd and pick and choose which does go.  We like to kill 4 year old and older does.

I wasn't sexually active in Jr. high and my kids better not be either.  I am talking mental maturity, not body maturity.  As an 18 year old senior in high school I would have mounted a pile of dirt if it wasn't for the fire ants.  When I was 24 I was a little more relaxed.  Same in the whitetail world and that is the point I am trying to make. 

You didn't need to come out and say you were worried about winter mortality.  You are advocating killing young bucks so older bucks can survive the winter.  The way I see it is if you weren't concerned with the big fella's survival during the winter then you wouldn't be in the discussion. 

You want to know another way to help them survive?  Pass on the yearlings so you will have more bucks around to breed the does.  That way they aren't running themselves ragged during a rut that drags on into January because there isn't enough bucks to bang the does the first couple times they come into a heat cycle.  More bucks equals a more intense and shorter rut and a longer recovery period before winter starts.

[Buckstopshere]

Joe: Whoa, not any doe at any time. It depends on their cycle. They don't cycle all at the same time. Some in the first rut peak, some in the second and about 25% of the doe fawns in the third rut peak. And we do not know which ones are going to cycle at any given time. Some does at some times bucks won't leave alone, and others, they could care less about...it is all in their particular estrus cycles. Also, their is a lot of synergy going on...in the past I have learned that shooting does during the early season can really screw up your buck hunting.

[Buckstopshere]

I won't comment about my sexual experiences...or lack thereof... This is a family show. ...and now my boys are grown men...Best of Luck with yours!

Do you want to know what really stresses the breeder bucks?....other bucks, yearlings! They drive them nuts. Ever watch a buck try to keep other bucks away from a doe he was tending?

Thanks, that is another reason to trim down the sacred yearling bucks! To keep the big boys from running themselves to death.

[cwhite]

Buck, If shooting a baby buck does it for you then blast away.  But your statement about them worrying about yearlings is completely false.  I can understand your ignorance because by your dogged defense of killing yearlings, I can only assume that as soon as you see a horn you shoot.  But ask anyone on here who have actually watched a little buck in a field or open hardwoods and ask them what happens when a dominate buck walks out.  I've watched dominate bucks walk into a field and every little teeny tiny yearling buck that was in the field run like hell.  If I didn't know better I would have thought you were in the bushes shooting at them.  They want nothing to do with big bucks or his lady friends.     

[nyantler]

Joe: Whoa, not any doe at any time. It depends on their cycle. They don't cycle all at the same time. Some in the first rut peak, some in the second and about 25% of the doe fawns in the third rut peak. And we do not know which ones are going to cycle at any given time. Some does at some times bucks won't leave alone, and others, they could care less about...it is all in their particular estrus cycles. Also, their is a lot of synergy going on...in the past I have learned that shooting does during the early season can really screw up your buck hunting.

Agreed that is why I take my does during the late muzzleloader...

[nyantler]

Buck, If shooting a baby buck does it for you then blast away.  But your statement about them worrying about yearlings is completely false.  I can understand your ignorance because by your dogged defense of killing yearlings, I can only assume that as soon as you see a horn you shoot.  But ask anyone on here who have actually watched a little buck in a field or open hardwoods and ask them what happens when a dominate buck walks out.  I've watched dominate bucks walk into a field and every little teeny tiny yearling buck that was in the field run like hell.  If I didn't know better I would have thought you were in the bushes shooting at them.  They want nothing to do with big bucks or his lady friends.   

Took the words right out of my mouth.. saved me some typing.. thanks

[Buckstopshere]

Well, shows me that you haven't seen big bucks chasing smaller bucks. But you will, if you spend more time out in the woods.

[cwhite]

Well, shows me that you haven't seen big bucks chasing smaller bucks. But you will, if you spend more time out in the woods.

Buck, That big guy wasn't chasing the baby, he was running for his life because you had already started shooting at the baby so he (the big one) could make the winter.   

Nope, I've never seen it during the rut.  Never seen it on a hunting show either for that matter.  In fact I rarely see a large dominant buck come running around until the doe is just about standing hot.  Then he shows up like a ghost and all the little guys get the hell out of dodge.  A yearling buck wants nothing to do with a mature buck or his date.  Do I need to spell it out for you?  Oh wait, I just did.  But what do I know?  I've only had older bucks to hunt for the past 3 seasons.

[Buckstopshere]

Very funny.  ;D

Well, I have, a bunch of times. Even this year, during the first rut. Oh, wait. I have it on video this year. Want to see it? Then you will admit I am right?

[Buckstopshere]

Here it is, or a little bit of it. I am building it into a DVD for next year. Anyways, here is a quick shot of a buck chasing another buck away from a cluster of breeding scrapes and does.

_Bucks_in_a_chase_11.16.10__02.mov

[cwhite]

Buck, you're right.  Boys oh boys did you ever show me.  I feel a right bunch of stupid now.  Go ahead and save those big bucks from certain starvation by shooting all the little ones you can. 

Oh yeah, I watched your video and could only see an average looking buck running about 40 yards behind a blurry deer. 

[Buckstopshere]

Your are welcome. I just showed you, blurry and low quality as it is, a buck chasing another buck in the rut. Something you have never seen, by your own admission. But your response seems a bit ungrateful.  :-\

[nyantler]

Looked to me like two bucks running away from some kind of trouble... didn't look like chasing at all

[WNYBuckHunter]

I agree, looks like they were running away from something. With that kind of footage, I cant wait to see the DVD.