Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[SplitG2]

Buck, you want to reduce the stress on your mature bucks?  Better yet on the deer herd?  Reduce the human pressure, provide a food source through winter(habitat improvements, food plots, tsi, natural browse etc..) provide cover and water....oh yeah take out some yotes as well.  Taking yearling bucks doesn't reduce the mature bucks stress.

[Buckstopshere]

Yeah, I know, I was only kidding with Cwhite. In southern Allegany County we have very little snow cover compared to the rest of Western NY, we are too far from the lakes for any significant lake effect. So there is really little winter stress on the deer. It has been many years since we have had a real winter kill here...back in the late 70's was the last time. Though we seem to have a decent population here (Unit 9Y) has a buck index from 5 to 7 per square mile, so couple with that all the logging that is going on, the bucks do fine here.

The problem is that there is just too much pressure on anything with a couple points on a side now. 

[Doc]

I don't know about little bucks be-deviling big bucks, but the whole discussion brings to mind the fact that fighting and other rut behavior is mighty tough on the bucks. I have read that a lot of the bucks head into winter in worse shape than some of the fawns because of the stress of buck rut behavior and the loss of winter fat reserves. I have seen what would have been a nice 8 point with every tine busted on the right side antler. I think that would have been quite a fight to see. The buck that I shot this year had some vicious looking deep wounds around the neck and hip that I have come to believe are severe antler punctures. I think these fighting related wounds led to something quite a bit more traumatic happening on the ass-end (probably from predators). Shooting this deer amounted to a mercy killing. So some of these battles can have some significant impacts on how they begin the hardships of winter. I have also seen bucks (young and old) after gun season that really looked quite thin (ribby), with the whole worst part of the winter before them. So I have to believe that an excessive density of bucks most likely complicates their existance and may very well send them into winter in a severely compromised condition. Couple that with a severe winter or one that lingers on excessively in the spring, and all that activity could mean the difference between life and death for some of those bucks.

I'm not sure how that all relates to the current part of this discussion, but certainly the stress of rut related behavior is not something to belittle.

[Buckstopshere]

Good point Doc.

A couple years ago, during bow season I had a small breeding herd (what I call a WBN,) Whitetail Breeding Nucleus, run around the tree I was in. Probably about eight or nine deer in all. I captured a bit of it on video. It was interesting to see how the bucks chased an evidently hot doe, and how a decent eight-point, tried to chase away the three yearling bucks, and keep up with the doe at the same time.  There were some other does and fawns in the group too.

When the first rut peak occurred this year, in the end of October, spilling into the first few days of November, I saw a dandy buck chasing another one through the woods. Interestingly, there was another buck, kind of a sidekick to the dominant buck, that was running just a bit back...acted just like a toadie.

Summer before last I was watching a bachelor group of eight-points and a yearling...four- or six-point kept trying to join into the group. One of the eights kept peeling off from the main group and chased the four-point off. But the little guy was stubborn and kept coming back. But every time he did, the eight pointer chased him away, some of the chases were a couple hundred yards.

Bucks do chase other bucks and they are serious, not just play.

A swarm of yearling bucks around  a hot doe could drive a decent buck crazy, not to mention the caloric and fat expense.

This year, during our second rut peak in the third week of November,  I watched  a dandy eight come out of his sanctuary with a small herd of doe. And on the outskirts, about 100 yards or so were two small bucks on one side and closer to me was another small buck. The three bucks were obviously shadowing the doe group, with the dominant buck as it moved into a cornfield. This was very controlled and I didn't witness any chasing of buck vs. buck or buck vs. doe.

But that's why when we are hunting in a main rut peak, it is so much feast or famine. You are either in the action, for the most part, where the bucks are or not. But I digress...

[Localqdm]

Guys, read the science about yearling dispersal.

Quote: Upwards of 70% leave for parts unknown, whether it is 300, 500 or 1,000 acres. It is an oversold myth to think those little guys you pass on are all going to hang around.

The idea is to let hunters shoot the little guys, get out of the woods and protect the 2.5 year olds and take some of the pressure off them because those are the ones the following year, if they make it through that we all talk about.

The no shooting of yearling bucks puts tremendous pressure on the 2.5 year olds that's why some of the properties that have drank the Kool Aid of AR management scratch their heads when they can actually look at the production and realize that they are not shooting any bigger bucks than they ever did.

I know that shooting the little guys seems counterintuitive.

I used to think like you guys....but the protection of yearling bucks and thinking they will all hang around, grow into a dandy buck to shoot the following year, or even the year after that is another case of a beautiful theory murdered by a ruthless gang of facts.

"A yearling buck seen during buck season is probably going to be in the same area for the rest of his life." Article written by [/color]Dr. Christopher S. Rosenberry, Wildlife Biometrician --I think in your paper.    http://www.wellsvilledaily.com/outdoors/x1733656795/Dispersal-of-yearling-bucks

[cwhite]

Doc, I agree with you to a point and it is logical that the more bucks the harder it is on them during the rut.  In the fighting, traveling and searching aspect I am sure it does wear them out.  But that also means that a strong majority of the gals are bred during the peak of the rut.  The majority of the "deer experts" say this gives them a longer recovery period before winter for these brutes who are starved and excersised out. 

Where I hunt our ratio by the 3rd week of October is about 12 does to 1 antlered buck.  What my hunting party has noticed is that our lopsided ratio wears the buck out over a longer period of time with no recovery period before winter.  They don't have to fight to get laid, but they have to tend to does for a couple months.  I have seen anterless bucks locked on a doe, not a fawn, after Christmas.  That has to be detrimental to their recovery and ultimately their existance in most places.  We are fortunate enough to have the deer yard locally, plenty of winter food planted and don't have a winter kill problem. 

Buck, quit mumbling in your posts.  Its hard to understand you.  Isn't hunting (=pressure) a more mature animal part of the idea of QDM?  When you get your DVD out can I get a signed copy? 

[Localqdm]

Rosenberry is referring to PA's buck season which is later than NY's.  But it seems probable that most yearlings on a piece in gun season here in NY are residents (in the general vicinity) for life. 

"In Maryland, for  example, fall dispersal began in mid-September and concluded in early  November, prior to the peak of the breeding season. Once breeding  peaked, in mid-November, dispersal movements stopped."  http://www.wellsvilledaily.com/outdoors/x1733656795/Dispersal-of-yearling-bucks

[nyantler]

Regardless of when a yearling buck moves from one area to another or where he moves to... he still becomes a bigger buck if he is allowed to live. I'm all for passing up a young buck to help him get bigger for another guy to take when he is bigger.

[Buckstopshere]

That's a very notable sentiment, Joe. My hat is off to you.

But at least we have added the notion of yearling dispersal to the discussion. Many think that if they pass on a buck, it will be there next year for them to shoot, when according to science, it very well may not be.

But for the record, I have been passing on bucks for 30 years. Here is a little video I made on it, last year...pardon the quality to all the video critics out there, but the deer are wild and hunted. Enjoy.

[gjs4]

Age due to a lack of self control is the reason why NY doesnt have more...its that simple...and as mentioned above..dead is dead...they dont grow then. Ready to puke over the classic i hold out for big guys but shoot whatever i can to fill my tag the last week...or the neighbor will shoot them...or any argument other than youre lazy/eager (or live where deer arent)..nice to see a few good posts in this thread on people with a bigger plan and/or understanding

[G-Man]

Well lets just say everyone can identify a year and a half old buck...its now made it thru at least 2 hunting seasons.. your chances of seeing it as a 2 and a half drop dramaticaly its learned to survive,give it another year or two and it might have even learned to become nocturnal giving you 0 chance of a legal harvest. Look its a personal choice to pass up a smaller buck or not some years i do some years i don't fact is i enjoy hunting and do like to harvest game. I have eight guys in my camp with a few daughters and sons almost ready to join in. I want them to experiance hunting,  and harvesting game and growing as a hunter themselves not being dictated to by its not big enough. Yes i do practice a form of deer management on my property but its not mandated to the hunter what they can or can't shoot! we simply provide the best habitat/food/cover that we can and the deer seem to be there year in and out. Yes we have taken some big bucks but we have also taken a lot of 1 and 1/2 year olds as well has many doe. I personal like to wait for a better buck and would like to see my friends hold out for one as well, i just nudge them that way by sharing trail cam pics from the summer and early fall to let them know what is hanging around the area. Some are passing smaller bucks after years of 1 1-2 year olds other shoot the 1st buck they see. i do not fault either method the only rule i have is you can shoot whatever is legal but don't complain if someone gets a bigger one! Just be Glad your out there hunting!!!

[Doc]

I personally like to wait for a better buck and would like to see my friends hold out for one as well, i just nudge them that way by sharing trail cam pics from the summer and early fall to let them know what is hanging around the area.

Frankly, I like your method of promoting the harvest of mature deer a whole lot better than just cranking out laws that require it. Also the soft-sell method works a whole lot better than the brow-beating method of trying to apply guilt or belittleing the accomplishments of others. People that start the fire and brimstone preaching generally create other hunters that simply dig in their heels and tune out on the entire thought of passing any deer. It's just human nature.

[nyantler]

Well lets just say everyone can identify a year and a half old buck...its now made it thru at least 2 hunting seasons.. your chances of seeing it as a 2 and a half drop dramaticaly its learned to survive,give it another year or two and it might have even learned to become nocturnal giving you 0 chance of a legal harvest.

There is no such thing as a 0 chance of a legal harvest unless maybe you stay home on the couch instead of going hunting... plus when there are many mature bucks instead of just 1 or 2 your harvest chances have just increased. You are correct that it is harder to kill a more mature buck and even harder if you wait around in the same treestand each day until one passes by... there are many ways to hunt big bucks, you just have to find the one that works.

[G-Man]

Your right there is no such thing a 0%. the point i was try to make and i am sure you understand, the conception is if you pass little bucks and let them grow your woods will be full of big bucks! A mature buck is a hard animal to kill, those that do it consistantly spend countless hr in persuit of them. The Average hunter does not put in the months of effort to harvest them so they don't exist in their area,or trophy hunters are poachers,ect lots of excuses... I believe the best way to change peoples minds on letting the young ones walk is  thru photos of game in your own area whats avaible...when i started getting serious about bigger bucks i was happy with a 2yr od now i wait for 3 or 4 plus. I still take doe and my camp takes small bucks as well but we have increased the size(weight) of our deer and everyone goes home happy at end of season. To try and have the state mandate what we can or can't take size wise is poor management on their part,they need to manage numbers not quality, quality is up to the individual...face it if your neighbor consistantly kills 110in plus eventually you'll wait for one to wander onto your property as well...and it will SLOWLY spread to your neighbors. I wish this could be sped up but anytime ar's are brought up hard feelings and agressiveness rises with it...slow and steady i say.

[nyantler]

I wish it was that simple.. that truth is.. especially after hearing all the comments on the numerous threads in this forum... is that better education, or not, there are hunters that simply want to kill yearlings no matter what..and are going to fight as hard against AR as others fight for AR. And as we have already found out.. the DEC only needs 20% of the hunters to be strongly against something for it to be dismissed.

[G-Man]

Well maybe not in your or my lifetime i'm afraid...but i do what i can and now have 5 other neighbors at least wanting to put foodplots in...yes i will help them even if it draws deer away from my own propery. I think it all starts with a good idea, and the conviction to follow it thru..hopefully others will join and carry it on long after i am gone...

[nyantler]

My biggest concern with QDM is the push on food plots.. if you look at any qdm site the majority of the site revolves around food plots... many of the hybrid nature... it's become a huge marketed industry... and I personally think it detracts from the overall message of deer management...seems just a bit too unnatural for me

[G-Man]

Well i think food plots have taken the place of nature method which we put out every chance we get..forest fires!!! you need regrowth open areas edge cover, most people i know put small openings on their property thus creating edge if they plant the opening with a food source they are still letting light into the understory and starting regowth there. I agree that the big push is food plots..it is also something everone can participate in the hunting club or family. I really dont care for the term qdm i tend to think what i do is total habitat management, it brings in turkey,deer,geese,sm.game in general. Deer will come and most of what i try to do in my natural improvement is increase my ruffed grouse habitat.. the deer just keep coming though.. 

[cwhite]

Food plots are an important piece to the QDM puzzle, not the DM puzzle.  The benefits is proven and well documented.  Body weights, winter mortality, fawn mortality, etc.... all benefit from food plots.  Other species gain from food plots as well.  Turkeys, rabbits, grouse, pheasants, etc....

We do 5 different plots anywhere from 1 to 5 acres each.  Since we started these in 2007 we haven't had any winter kill that we can find, although the winters haven't been terrible.  But the added feed is taking pressure off of the winter yard areas and allowing them to rebound from the harsh winters from earlier in the decade. 

We plant a 5 acre piece with corn and soy together.  I plant the corn and fertilize it (with the planter) first then broadcast soy on top of the corn seed then roll the entire field with a cultipacker then broadcast 200 more pounds per acre of fertilizer.  The soy seems to grow better this way and the corn doesn't seem to be stunted either.  This gives me 10 acres of feed in a 5 acre area.  The field yields about 20 tons of corn and 15 tons soybean, not to mention all the soy plant leaves that the deer munch on all summer and early fall.  We do a 3 acre piece and a 1 acre piece to winter rye for late season green fields and winter thaw and early spring feed.  Then we do a 2 acre clover field and a 1 acre brassica field.  We rarely hunt directly over them, except for the corn/soy, I can't brag enough about the increased population we have and the increased body weights on younger deer. 

If you aren't on board with food plots then your neighbors are going to pull deer from your property to their food plots.  I checked the corn/soy a couple days after christmas and I watched 35 deer walk into the field by 4pm and 3 of them were bucks still carrying antlers.

[nyantler]

One of the things we do on our 700 acre lease is trim the old apple orchards so they yeild more apples... it is an agricultural area with corn and soybeans planted... the farmer does plant some white clover as part of a NYS program for the animals.. but it is not a hybrid clover... just natural white clover that the deer dig down to eat during the winter months. The deer are extremely healthy looking deer so we see no need to suppliment their diet with mineral blocks or hybrid type food plots. Guys plant food plots under the guise of "feeding the deer to make them healthier" when in reality they are just using it as a means to keep deer on their property or in front of their treestand...just not my thing is all

[adk3006]

If you aren't on board with food plots then your neighbors are going to pull deer from your property to their food plots. 

CWHITE,

    I certainly don't have to worry about any of my neighbors putting in food plots.  My neighbors gladly let me put in the plots and THEY reap the benefits by sitting on my property lines!

[nyantler]

I'm not concerned with keeping deer on my property with food plots so that the neighbors won't see any deer.. last I remembered this wasn't a contest between me and my neighbor.. could be why some of you don't get along with the neighbors during hunting season. I'm not against all food plots.. just the ones designed to hinder the natural movement of whitetails. A 10 acre food plot on 11acres of land surrounded by a huge farm doesn't make sense to me. Might as well just throw out a pile of corn and call it what it is...

[Doc]

When the food plotting rage all began, everyone claimed that food plots were just a benevolent activity with no other concern than that of helping to feed the deer. Lol .... I think it probably goes a bit farther than that ..... don't you think? Well, today hunters are a little less shy about saying that their plots are for drawing and holding deer in their hunting areas for hunting purposes. I would have to assume that as part of that, you would have a result (intentional or not) of drawing deer off neighboring lands. I suppose that's just a necessary consequence of getting involved in the feeding patterns of a local herd.

What the heck, if he wants the deer back he can put in a bigger and better food plot ....  ;D

[Localqdm]

Food plots don't have to be a contest between neighbors.  Usually those who shoot young deer also have little desire to plant food plots--not always but often.  Thats fine and thats their privilege.  Its also fine for their neighbor who has repeatedly sent those yearling 6pts their way for yrs to try to support a more complete habitat on his property and yes try to hold some deer there. 

That is not taking anything from anyone else, as the neighbors are also free to improve the bedding, brows, and food on their side--and they will have plenty of deer too, even if we are holding some on our side. 

As far as food plots altering natural deer patterns, sure.  But so do deer drives and simply hunting in general--the more odor in the area, the less deer. 

[cwhite]

I certainly don't have to worry about any of my neighbors putting in food plots.  My neighbors gladly let me put in the plots and THEY reap the benefits by sitting on my property lines!

I know your pain. We have nearly a dozen stands around our property lines.  I can't blame the neighbors for taking advantage of our fields.  It is a lot of work but we don't harbor hard feelings towards the neighbors.  It comes with the territory I guess.

nyantler, the only person we compete with is ourselves.  We are constantly tweeking things to make them better.  I think you misunderstood that part of my post.  It wasn't directed at you or anyone for that matter.  Just pointing out the drawing power of a food plot.  I've found that a deer would rather eat on clover and chicory than twigs and leaves.

Doc, I freely admit that I put plots in for my hunting benefit.  But a significant consequence is the other things mentioned earlier.  There is no doubt that they help the overall health of the animal.  And you're right, damn it, if they want them back shell out the $$ and plant their own fields.