Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[nyantler]

That is not taking anything from anyone else, as the neighbors are also free to improve the bedding, brows, and food on their side--and they will have plenty of deer too, even if we are holding some on our side. 

As far as food plots altering natural deer patterns, sure.  But so do deer drives and simply hunting in general--the more odor in the area, the less deer.

I am ok with improving bedding, brows and food in a natural way.. without hybrid type food plots designed just for improving the quality of the bucks. Planting bushes for browse and small patches of natural clovers and such are great. But planting 2500 acres of hybrid clover and other hybrid food plots for a heard of maybe 50 deer makes me question the motive behind the planting.

As far as altering the deer pattern... one would be altering the pattern in my favor (ie. Planting huge food plots on my property) and the other would be altering the pattern against my favor (ie. deer drives, excessive odor, etc.)

Again, I'm not against food plots at all.. just not in favor of some of the motives behind certain types and quantities of plantings. And remember I'm a guy who is pro QDM.

[SplitG2]

Joe, what are these hybrid footplots(ex clover) you speak of?

[nyantler]

Almost all the Whitetail Clover like BIOLOGIC and others which hunters are buying are hybrids of natural white clover and other natural clovers developed specifically for antler growth and the growing of big deer... Not that I'm against big deer... which everyone here knows about me by now...I just don't like the increase in introduced food plot products designed to speed up antler growth or used as a tool to keep deer isolated to a certain piece of property. It likens itself to farming deer in my eyes. Again this is just my own opinion based on what I've seen develope with QDM in the last 17 years.

As a sidenote.. I was one of the first along with Charlie Alshiemer to speak on the subject of Quality Deer Management in NYS back in 1994 I did numerous seminars all over NY at that time on QDM.. I was also spent some time with the first qdm program ever in NY at the Weller Mountain Hunting Club in the mid 90's There were just a handful of hunters in NY that even knew what QDM was back then... So I know a bit about QDM and the increase in the importance of food plots promoted by the QDMA has always bothered me as I have noticed that their website and most of there advertisers are centered around just that.

I think that is a lot of the reason hunters have taken up the notion that deer management is about creating trophy bucks and thats not suppose to be the reason at all.

[burmjohn]

Dumping an acre or 5 of biologic whatever isn't going to make a trophy buck though.  And from what I was reading, most of those are pretty nutritious, high in protein, which isn't just for antler growth.

[SplitG2]

Joe, thnks for explaining.  There are many varieties that get developed but not sure for antler growth specifically....The Commercial deer seed companies have good marketing   Most of those clovers you can get at your local co-op.  I do plant food plots and it's no way a sure thing on killing big mature deer.  Now if you said cover, well that's a different story.

[wztirem]

Almost all the Whitetail Clover like BIOLOGIC and others which hunters are buying are hybrids of natural white clover and other natural clovers developed specifically for antler growth and the growing of big deer... Not that I'm against big deer... which everyone here knows about me by now...I just don't like the increase in introduced food plot products designed to speed up antler growth or used as a tool to keep deer isolated to a certain piece of property. It likens itself to farming deer in my eyes. Again this is just my own opinion based on what I've seen develope with QDM in the last 17 years.

As a sidenote.. I was one of the first along with Charlie Alshiemer to speak on the subject of Quality Deer Management in NYS back in 1994 I did numerous seminars all over NY at that time on QDM.. I was also spent some time with the first qdm program ever in NY at the Weller Mountain Hunting Club in the mid 90's There were just a handful of hunters in NY that even knew what QDM was back then... So I know a bit about QDM and the increase in the importance of food plots promoted by the QDMA has always bothered me as I have noticed that their website and most of there advertisers are centered around just that.

I think that is a lot of the reason hunters have taken up the notion that deer management is about creating trophy bucks and thats not suppose to be the reason at all.

Joe, you hit the nail on the head.

[G-Man]

I think thats why a lot of hunters have given up or don't believe in QDM, they plant some food plots and ...no big bucks!! Really the biggest thing for big bucks is age.... Our biggest problem in wny is lots of hunters and small properties, mid-west average fam farmsize 400-800 acres, west and canada sm.farm or ranch 20,000 acres. new york ..50 acres ? Tough to get bucks some age when they wander over property lines, and no mater what you try to say or do there are and will always be hunters that only have a day or two to hunt and are happy with a year 1/2 buck. There is a difference in managing a deer herd for health/population, and trophy...unfortunatly most hunters seem to just want trophy. Give deer some place to hide and grow old, and you'll see what i mean.

[nyantler]

As another sidenote.. I have gotten away from actually speaking about "deer management" as QDM... I am completely for managing whitetails for the betterment of healthy herds given the available habitat. And a huge proponent of a better age structure for bucks... but when I hear the term QDM now it reminds me nothing of what I thought of the program 17 years ago... the more I see QDM promoting more oversized hybrid food plots the more I think of it as deer farming... and even though I'm basically for most of what they promote outside of that.. that particular aspect just doesn't sit well with me.

[G-Man]

Well stated joe!  i believe the term QDM brings up to many  ill feelings, i work for the betterment of my habitat and my local deer herd. my neighbors ask if i practice qdm and i tell them no i practice total deer management!

[nyantler]

Don't get me wrong.. I'm not against QDM.. i just not into food plots all that much

[TheHunter]

One of the things we do on our 700 acre lease is trim the old apple orchards so they yeild more apples... it is an agricultural area with corn and soybeans planted... the farmer does plant some white clover as part of a NYS program for the animals.. but it is not a hybrid clover... just natural white clover that the deer dig down to eat during the winter months. The deer are extremely healthy looking deer so we see no need to suppliment their diet with mineral blocks or hybrid type food plots. Guys plant food plots under the guise of "feeding the deer to make them healthier" when in reality they are just using it as a means to keep deer on their property or in front of their treestand...just not my thing is all

How is this different from a food plot..  Its not.

[nyantler]

I didn't say it wasn't  a food plot.. its a natural non-hybrid food plant...indigenous to the area... and  not planted 400-1000 acres at a time.. it is not fertilized or weeded, and can only me mowed every 2 years. As for trimming existing apple trees that are 50 or more years old- I'm pretty sure that's not a food plot that was planted to attract deer. And any corn on the property is harvested before the bow season begins... nothing on the property has been done to attract deer and/ or keep them on the property. Not the same can be said for todays food plots. Thats the difference!

[cwhite]

I have never seen a 400 acre food plot.  In fact, I can't think of a 400 acre field anywhere in northern NY.  I can't imagine a 1000 acre field.  You're right that is unnatural.         

 

[nyantler]

you can plant 400 acres on a piece of property without it being in the same field.

[cwhite]

Whether you agree or not, supplemental feed in the form of food plots is part of the hunting culture now.  And to be honest, since we started planting them the benefits far out weigh any negative.  Other than the $150-200/acre average it costs us to plant them, I can't think of a negative.  We see more and bigger deer and in the spring we don't find skeletons from winter kill.  I will debate food plot benefits just as hard as I would the benefits of letting bucks grow up. 

Don't misunderstand me, I can see your point that it isn't traditional hunting.  But I don't see it as unethical or lacking in sport.  It also helps me make season last all year long. 

[nyantler]

There are VERY few places that have any significant winter kill in NY... some in the Highmarket area where they actually clear out huge wintering yards for deer... some area of the adirondack park. But if you hunt anywhere near suburbia there is no need to plant food plot to reduce winter kill.. and if you are planting plots to produce bigger bucks then you have just proven my point about the motive of food plots... to farm for bigger bucks and keep deer from leaving a given property... Hey if thats what blows your skirt up that okay by me .. just not my cup of tea

[burmjohn]

So I have two 1 acre plots on 125 acres... The 2 1 acre plots were all we could afford to have cleared this y ear.  There are zero farms with in ~5 miles in any direction. There are zero fields on my property, its all wooded.  Just curious what your thoughts on my two small plots would be?  I still fail to see the difference between hunting over a food plot versus hunting over a apple orchards or farmers plots that you do.  If there happen to be a 20 acre apple orchard there,  planted by someone in the past, what would your opinion be then?  No deer were harvested on our plots, in fact, I spend 90% of my hunting time this year hunting in the woods.  The plots got some great trail cam pics, most of which were at night.  Turkeys seemed to love the plot during the day times, I saw as 30+ personally during bow. (video below)  Anyways, regardless, a plot is a plot whether it was there before you hunted it, if a farmer harvests it, or if you planted it... There is zero difference in the end.    On one field we planted a mix of stuff the local seed source suggested and the other we did some whitetail blend.

[cwhite]

Very few area's?  Try convincing any of the adk clubs, area's north of the adk's and area's near the great lakes that they don't have winter kill.  I hunted Hemlock Lake (8N) a few years back and the year before had a terrible winter kill.  Not every year has winter kill.  It isn't an opinion, it is a fact that we lose deer during some winters, especially if they aren't supplemented.  I supplement each year via food plots (I find that corn, soy, brassica's, and rye work best) because I can't predict which winter will be bad and which won't. 

[punch]

Burmjohn,

have you looked at eagleseed forage soybeans yet? I used them last year with incredible results. I mixed mine with corn but I think they would do just fine on their own.

[nyantler]

OK guys before you go jumping all over me.. go back and read my posts.. I'm not totally against food plots... Burmjohn I already spoke on natural food sources (specifcally apple orchards which we have on our property).. and I'm pretty sure I mentioned portions of the adk park as winter kill areas in my last post cwhite... I'm not going to argue my point about food plots... I don't condemn those that use them... Some of the motives and over use of hybrid foodplots leave a bit of a bad taste in my mouth is all. I'm just not a big fan of them... and I'm not the kind that sits over a field and waits for deer to come into it.

[G-Man]

Well apple trees are not native to the U.S. only pear.. so even if you are stalking thru an old apple orchard your hunting a food plot..... lol  ;D

[nyantler]

I'm sure that's not why they were planted 50 years ago...but... it's more the motive behind food plots that bothers me...just curious why more of the food plot guys don't plant much in the way of browse! hmmm...

[G-Man]

well clearing an area in mature woods create edge which creates browse....they do it with out knowing it ......

[nyantler]

Yeah thats cool if they are clearing woods for the crop... great idea in fact ... most of the plots I know of are planted on open ground...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Well apple trees are not native to the U.S. only pear.. so even if you are stalking thru an old apple orchard your hunting a food plot..... lol  ;D

I think pears were brought over with the colonists