New York State Testing

[crappyice]

Anyone else's kids ready to go to the mattresses if they are forced to sit through another state test. This week my 3rd grade daughter sat through 3-90 minute exams (1 per day). Next week, she does it all over again in math.

[growalot]

I know I saw on the news that parents have had enough and are saying no!....God Bless you..so glad our kids are out

[Doc]

Sounds pretty grueling to me and perhaps is a bit extreme. However, I guess I am in favor of some kind of standardized measuring system to see what parts of the educational system are doing their job and which ones need improvement or some sort of dramatic re-build. Some of the horror stories that I have heard about teaching methods (experiments) tell me that we need some defined and standardized data points to see what is really working and what are simply some educator's pipe-dream. Let's face it this free-for-all system that we have now sure isn't working ... is it?

[ATbuckhunter]

I did it when i was in elementary and i didn't think it was so bad. I just thought it was what my education required and it didn't phase ma at all. 

[growalot]

Doc ...then they should be testing the teachers not the kids....To see if they are competent....

[crappyice]

ATbuckhunter..just curious of how long ago it was when you took those tests? A lot has changed in the last few years.

Really Doc...teachers experiment on their students? The Brown eye/blue eye experiment happened in the 60s. Other than that experiment,to what else are you referring?

[Pav2704]

I can tell you personally that the NYS ELA state test that my 8th grade students just finished this week was a grueling three days! The test consisted of 9 long passages with 72 multiple choice questions, 3 more passages and 3 short responses with and essay on day 2, and 3 more passages with 5 short responses and another essay for day 3.

Grow, the sad part is that this test is for the teachers. It has no effect on the student what so ever. The test scores a student receive does not reflect the type of classes they take the following year. This test, which many parents are telling their children not to worry about or having them "opt out" is the same test that teachers are being elavuated on.

If we truly want to improve the educational system, we should follow the model of other countries that have surpassed the United States. Most of those countries do not have standardized testing and they also tract their students into two categories. One as college ready and the second prepares them for a trade. In my honest opinion, today belief that every student should go to college is flawed. I have friends that have become incredibly successful from learning a trade and never attending college.

[Doc]

I can only say that something has to be done or we can continue to watch technical jobs flow overseas while we all turn into a country of "service industries". Seriously, education is only one part of our slide into mediocrity, but it is a big part. We cannot continue to not challenge teachers and the education industry. We just cannot afford it. At some point we have to repress arrogance and admit that we are losing our place in the world. It's not super obvious to those outside of technology jobs, but some of us have watched industry after industry go overseas taking our technology with it. It used to be that we were the only ones equipped to handle innovation and creativity ..... not anymore. If a little standardization and accountability and measurement is part of the answer then let's do it. Like I say that's only part of it all, but it is a heck of a good start.

 

As far as testing the student rather than the teacher, that is a time tested method used all the time in industry. We always test the product and not the manufacturer. The manufacturer gets tested and evaluated by default.

[ATbuckhunter]

ATbuckhunter..just curious of how long ago it was when you took those tests? A lot has changed in the last few years.

Really Doc...teachers experiment on their students? The Brown eye/blue eye experiment happened in the 60s. Other than that experiment,to what else are you referring?

I took my last one about 4 years ago since i'm a senior now, but I don't remember it being that many questions. 

[SteveB]

Problem a lot of times with this type of testing is that teaching to test becomes more important than teaching and understanding the subject.

There is a difference.

[growalot]

As far as testing the student rather than the teacher, that is a time tested method used all the time in industry. We always test the product and not the manufacturer. The manufacturer gets tested and evaluated by default.

 

 So how's that been working out for us over the last decade?

[Doc]

 So how's that been working out for us over the last decade?

In industry, it works just fine, not only over the last decade, but basicly forever. In education, it's an untested concept. This is the first serious attempt that I know of where teachers would be evaluated based on measureable results of standardized testing of their "product". The other thing is that someone has to pay attention to the results and develop a plan for those teachers that are not producing the results that others are capable of. And then of course stirring in "tenure" is another ridiculous factor that has never allowed teacher evaluations of any sort to have any impact. So, the short answer to your question is: let's try it first and then evaluate how it works. 

[Pav2704]

In industry, it works just fine, not only over the last decade, but basicly forever. In education, it's an untested concept. This is the first serious attempt that I know of where teachers would be evaluated based on measureable results of standardized testing of their "product". The other thing is that someone has to pay attention to the results and develop a plan for those teachers that are not producing the results that others are capable of. And then of course stirring in "tenure" is another ridiculous factor that has never allowed teacher evaluations of any sort to have any impact. So, the short answer to your question is: let's try it first and then evaluate how it works.

How accurate are the results when many parents tell their children that it's a test for their teachers, not them? Or... it's a difficult test so my child is going to "opt out"? What does that teach children of today? When life gets difficult, we all know that you can't just opt out.

Believe me, I am all for holding teachers accountable, but there needs to be some accountability on the students part as well.

[First-light]

Kids just got done. It was tough but necessary. You should read up on what has been put in place in the last two years for teacher and administrator accountability. I know Cuomo is not liked here but he is pretty tough in the education department in NYS.

[growalot]

In industry, it works just fine,

Well that's for another conversation altogether. I'm not in the save mind set as you on this.

 

As for the other...Rochester has been doing this for quite some time now...their stats do not seem to be improving much..at least the last I'd seen report that is...

[growalot]

Grow, the sad part is that this test is for the teachers. It has no effect on the student what so ever. The test scores a student receive does not reflect the type of classes they take the following year. This test, which many parents are telling their children not to worry about or having them "opt out" is the same test that teachers are being elavuated on.

 

Here's the problem I see in this "institutional" thinking..

 

unless they are going back through each students complete school record..when I say complete I mean scores on home work and in class work against test scores...they are not getting a true picture...

 

IE...the student that receives above average scores on home work and class work...then goes onto do below average on test in the exact same materials...

 

There is a reverse of this same situation..poor hands on work but great test scores.

 

These type of institutional testings will never work....and another thing WE SHOULD NOT and CAN NOT keep comparing our selves to other countries...Our culture is unique and our ethnicity more diverse....Our brains are hard wired differently..sorta speak.

 

What they need to do is take all these days  putting kids through inadequate testing and have them go to a vocational school and try out a few hands on careers.

 

The teachers should have to go to work shops and learn-relearn how to deal with and pick up on students individual learning skills and how to work with them with in the group dynamic

 

 

Edited April 20, 2013 by growalot

[crappyice]

If this test is indeed intended to evaluate the teacher(in reality, the test results are a small portion of overall teacher evaluation), how fair is that to educators? "Don't worry about it! Opt out! It means nothing."- not great motivation for students to show off their teacher's potential. How about my 6th grade student on Tuesday whose mother has not yet been heard from since she ran in the marathon? Here's an A student and stellar child, who was able to only compete 23 of the 42 questions on day 1-not easy to read stories through bouts of tears.

I as a sixth grade teacher would much prefer to be tested to show my proficiency then use my 11 year old students to prove my worth.

By the way, the majority of the new teacher evaluation is still related to the principal's evaluation and rightfully so. The only problem is that the principal's evaluation is also the main means to REMOVE A TENURED TEACHER and we all know how rarely that happens. Yes, tenured teachers can be removed when the school proves the teacher is sub-standard. Thats where the issue lies...administrators who do not have the balls to do ther job. Tenure = due process. It is not a force field.

My biggest problem with being a teacher is dealing with the union. I feel the union needs to "police their own" in some ways. If the teachers union knows someone is a bad teacher, they should be at the forefront of improving the teacher or removing the teacher from the union(weakest link principle).

[Doc]

As for the other...Rochester has been doing this for quite some time now...their stats do not seem to be improving much..at least the last I'd seen report that is...

Well like I already said, testing is one thing, having the will to use the results properly is quite another. If a school district has the data and refuses to use it, that does not necessarily mean that as an over-all policy it doesn't work.

[Doc]

How accurate are the results when many parents tell their children that it's a test for their teachers, not them? Or... it's a difficult test so my child is going to "opt out"? What does that teach children of today? When life gets difficult, we all know that you can't just opt out.

Believe me, I am all for holding teachers accountable, but there needs to be some accountability on the students part as well.

I think we are both in agreement on this. A plan is only as good as its implementation.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Grow, the sad part is that this test is for the teachers. It has no effect on the student what so ever. The test scores a student receive does not reflect the type of classes they take the following year. This test, which many parents are telling their children not to worry about or having them "opt out" is the same test that teachers are being elavuated on.

 

 

The sad thing is, that the "teacher" (I use that term loosely here) that administered the tests to my daughter last week has her (and the other kids) convinced that these test saty on their "permanent record" and will affect their college choices and career.

[Pav2704]

The sad thing is, that the "teacher" (I use that term loosely here) that administered the tests to my daughter last week has her (and the other kids) convinced that these test saty on their "permanent record" and will affect their college choices and career.

While I am not defending your daughter's teacher and I would not of chosen the words that this person has used, I can understand her position in trying to have the students see the importance in these state tests.  I'm sure this teacher just wants her students to do there best considering that their evaluation and job security is based on it.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sure, but there is a difference between asking the kids to do their best and straight out lying to them. We had already told her that the tests will not count against her, so she knew to ask after the (Ill call them a staff member) told her that. Other kids were visibly upset by it from what she told me.

 

What drives me nuts is that they have been doing nothing but preparing the kids for the tests for well over a month. Thats over a month that should be spent teaching them things they will find useful down the road, not coaching them on how to make the teacher look better. Between this nonsense and the constant focus on sports, etc its no wonder why our educational system is so shoddy.

[Pav2704]

Sure, but there is a difference between asking the kids to do their best and straight out lying to them. We had already told her that the tests will not count against her, so she knew to ask after the (Ill call them a staff member) told her that. Other kids were visibly upset by it from what she told me.

 

What drives me nuts is that they have been doing nothing but preparing the kids for the tests for well over a month. Thats over a month that should be spent teaching them things they will find useful down the road, not coaching them on how to make the teacher look better. Between this nonsense and the constant focus on sports, etc its no wonder why our educational system is so shoddy.

Tell that to the NYS Education Department...  As an educator, I would much rather spend my time with my students preparing them for lifelong activities.  However, while my evaluation and job security are tied to these tests, I will do everything I can to make sure my students are prepared!!

[growalot]

Just a thought...in general knowing kids for WNYBH daughters class only...What do you think will resonate in their memories after all this is said and done..

 

The information learned for the testing and how that pertains to their future or..

 

The lie they know was told to them...showing that, when ones future is at stake a lie here and there is OK?

Edited April 22, 2013 by growalot

[WNYBuckHunter]

In the long run, I dont honestly think she will carry any of it forward besides the fact that she was lied to by a teacher. I have already begun to iterate to her that not all teachers are like that, and that most of them have her best interests in mind. I also told her that she will run into those that are just plain not good teachers, and that she needs to speak up when she does.