Heck, it's the law. You gotta comply.

[ants]

First of all the whole scenario is flawed because they would have to eliminate the 2nd amendment first, and that is simply not going to happen. But let me give you an idea of where I draw the line. Any law that has been passed and survives the test of constitutionality and all court tests by the judicial branch (yes, we have courts to deal with that sort of thing), is a legitimate law that should be abided by the citizens. Further, I expect the police to do the job they are paid to do without throwing their personal opinions and biases into it. They too are charged with upholding the laws of the land and the dictates of the Constitution. They have no business interpreting anything. That is the role of the judicial branch.

 

My God people do you believe in this country or not? I mean our system of government is what I believe in. Do you all want to trash it? This discussion is beginning to sound like some banana republic or third world country that has their annual uprising and stays forever in a state of internal revolution. Is that what you are all looking for? Hey leave me out of that nonsense. Like I said, I believe in this country and it's system of checks and balances, and it seems to work a lot better than anything the internal terrorists and militias might come up with. I am seriously wondering why I would even have to say that.

 

My contention is that they are trying to eliminate, or at least severely diminish, the 2nd amendment, but OK..... What if a law was passed saying that you could keep your firearms in your home, but that  you have to keep them, unloaded, with  trigger locks installed, on all firearms, and that they also must be kept  in a government approved locked cabinet.  In addition, all of the ammo. for the firearms, must  also  be kept locked in a government approved cabinet in another room in the house, away from the firearms. . Would you go with that ? Under that "scenario" you still have your 2nd amendment rights.

[Doc]

I'm really not going to deal in "what-ifs". I am looking at the world as it exists without letting my imagination get me off into a land of fiction. I hear all this whining (sorry about using that term) about how bad we have got it and how we have joined the ranks of the oppressed, and all I hear being offered as a solution is a bunch of Rambo talk. It appears that if things were as dire as is being painted by those like Early, we should already have taken up arms and joined the nearest militia ... lol. But no, the fact is that just like the rest of us he is contentedly heading out to work everyday, going about his business conducting life in a very contended fashion, just like we have always done since the inception of this country.

 

So, tell me people, just what are you proposing as a solution to all this horrible inhuman oppression? Are you all packing to head off to whatever country you picture now as utopia? By the way where is that? Are you planning to organize and tear down this oppressive government and then worry about what you are going to replace it with later? Any of you have any idea just what this new government will look like? How will it differ from what we already have? Or have you even thought past your Rambo fantasies as to what might be implemented if this government came down? You have absolutely no ideas of what to replace it with, or you would be doing at least the bare minimums to change the system by using the system. I realize that isn't as flashy as all the "movie script" revolutionary talk, but that is what's required for real change. It is activity that may actually take some real effort .... certainly more than just idly sitting around complaining about how bad things are and how we are going to take up arms against our country. By the way, there are a few Arab countries that might offer to help you out in that effort.

 

So, seriously, what is your vision of how we should proceed? Really, I would like to hear it. This question is open to anyone that thinks they have the answer to all the supposed inhumane oppression that we are forced to live under. Try to keep the discussion out of the realm of fantasy and imagination and thoughts of conjured up pretend scenarios that will "maybe" happen. Given the world as it is today, what are your solutions? Armed open rebellion? Murder all the politicians? Move to another country? Maybe just tear down the country and leave it available for whoever wants to take it over? The Islam nations have some ideas to help you along with the re-forming of America. Or maybe you would like a little more of a free-form type of government. Maybe a society of anarchy .... you know kind of a "Mad Max" scenario.....lol. Since so many have given up on even trying to use the systems of reform that are already in place, what realistically is your next move?

[Doc]

 

sorry if i get a little fired up but i agree w Mr. JVP that something has to change if we dont want this country to turn into a communist or dictator style controlled state withing the next couple 100 yrs...

 

 

Damn right something has to change. That's not the discussion. The points of contention are related to HOW we are going to change them. Some are willing to work within the system, others want to tear down the system and cross their fingers that whatever takes its place will somehow be better ...... think about that.

 

The fact is that people do have to get involved in our government and not simply satisfy themselves with a bunch of fantasizing. A few replies ago I apparently wasted my time listing some rather simple things that the average citizen can do to make a difference. None of that was saying that we simply accept things as they are. I am just saying that people need to accept the responsibilities of citizenship and accept their role as a part of this government. Political activism is not a dirty phrase. It is the expected role of each of us. And by the way, none of this activity was anything that Mr VJP was talking about.

[Early]

You are the one, Doc, who is fantasizing: Your assumptions, based on what I and others have posted here are astounding. Your "Holier Than Thou" attitude stinks! Sheesh....If our rights and freedoms depended on guys like you, we would have been loaded in the cattle cars long ago!

Edited September 9, 2013 by Early

[ants]

"What if" knowing that true criminals will never obey laws, a law was passed saying that you could only have 7 rounds in your 10 round mag, to protect your family in your own home?  Crazy... but just think about it.

[growalot]

 

I'm really not going to deal in "what-ifs". I am looking at the world as it exists without letting my imagination get me off into a land of fiction. I hear all this whining (sorry about using that term) about how bad we have got it and how we have joined the ranks of the oppressed, and all I hear being offered as a solution is a bunch of Rambo talk. It appears that if things were as dire as is being painted by those like Early, we should already have taken up arms and joined the nearest militia ... lol.

 

What comes to mind is WWll and how no one believed what was happening in Germany....Oohhh yes....history is doomed to repeat it's self in one form or another....stupid stupid humans....

[mmkay]

_Doc,

 

_{NYS gun laws will never be overturned in the legislator, maybe in the court, but never by elected officials.}

 

_{Upstate NY is losing population ever year.  Upstate NY‘s young are moving to states that provide better opportunities.  Our kind (sportsmen) are moving to the south and west.}

 

_{NYC and its suburbs continue to grow each year with South American immigrant and anti’s (hunting / gun) from across the nation.  Upstate NY will never again have the population needed to counter downstate NY’s voting power.} 

 

_{It’s just a matter of time before more strict gun and hunting laws get passed in this state.} 

 

_{I don’t think a revolution is needed or will happen, but people vote with their feet.  Hunting and gun ownership will always be accepted in the south, west  and Alaska.  But like minded anti’s are migrating (or staying) in NY, while like-minded hunters and gun owners keep leaving NY.}

 

_{Elections have consequences, sportman will never again have a majority in this state.  Although NY is a beautiful place with abundant natural resources, it is lost to us.  All we can do is to endeavor to persevere}

 

Edited September 9, 2013 by mmkay

[Doc]

You are the one, Doc, who is fantasizing: Your assumptions, based on what I and others have posted here are astounding. Your "Holier Than Thou" attitude stinks! Sheesh....If our rights and freedoms depended on guys like you, we would have been loaded in the cattle cars long ago!

You obviously have not read or understood most of the replies on this thread or the other anti-government thread, or you wouldn't make such a dumb statement. There are no assumptions and there is nothing that I have referred to in my replies that has not clearly been spelled out in these threads. So do a little reading of these threads so that you really know what the heck you are talking about.

 

Regarding  your "holier-than-thou" crack, I will tell you that there does come a time when people have to pull their heads out of that dark and unsanitary place and face the facts that just ranting about breaking laws and other kinds of imagined tough-guy scenarios doesn't get the job done. Such idle ranting is simply an excuse to do nothing. If pointing that fact out is considered "holier-than-thou", so be it. I get so tired of people running away from responsible citizen activism and retreating into a world of fantasy instead. Get over it people. There is work to be done and we don't really have time for this Rambo fantasizing. Now if there is some way that anyone thinks that is holier-than-thou b.s., give your head a shake and snap out of it. We really need gun owners who actually understand what really has to be done and who have a willingness to actually do it. And none of that has anything to do with felonious activity.

[Doc]

"What if" knowing that true criminals will never obey laws, a law was passed saying that you could only have 7 rounds in your 10 round mag, to protect your family in your own home?  Crazy... but just think about it.

And what, in your mind, is the proper response to that law? I'm not defending the Safe Act, but I am wondering about some of the ways that some people on here think they should fight it. So I say the thing that ought to be "thought about" is how effective and responsible is committing a felony as a response. What exactly are you expecting that to accomplish other than time behind bars and permanent record, and the loss of all your firearms? How has that helped remove the Safe Act? I'll tell you that such actions not only don't change the law, but they help entrench the attitudes that put that law there, as well as create new allies for anti-gun thinking in the general public.

 

Is it really so hard to understand that the responsible reaction to the Safe Act is to fight it in the courts and to fight the politicians who come up with these laws and to strengthen the organizations that lobby against such laws? Is it really difficult to understand that illegal reactions only reinforce the positions of these anti gun people and draw more allies to their side? That is all I'm saying is to look at the bigger picture and understand that there are legal things that we haven't even yet had a chance to try out or complete. And the more people that seem to find comfort in this idea of simply breaking the law as their way of fighting it make those more useful solutions far more difficult to accomplish.

[Doc]

What comes to mind is WWll and how no one believed what was happening in Germany....Oohhh yes....history is doomed to repeat it's self in one form or another....stupid stupid humans....

It is amazing how we are now being compared to Nazi Germany. My gosh we do have a flair for the dramatic ..... lol. It is sad that so many have decided to give up on this country. Sure there is a long list of wrongs that we should be working to right. But it appears that no one has the will to fight the system, with the system. The first thing that comes to mind these days is to simply throw out the baby with the bathwater and worry about the consequences later. Sometimes it does make you wonder if people are really intelligent enough to govern themselves or if they even have the will to do so. But even with some of the crazy things I have read on this thread, I still have faith that there are enough people still left that believe in our system of governance to take on the problems and attack them in sane, effective and responsible ways, in spite of those that would trash the country.

[ants]

And what, in your mind, is the proper response to that law? I'm not defending the Safe Act, but I am wondering about some of the ways that some people on here think they should fight it. So I say the thing that ought to be "thought about" is how effective and responsible is committing a felony as a response. What exactly are you expecting that to accomplish other than time behind bars and permanent record, and the loss of all your firearms? How has that helped remove the Safe Act? I'll tell you that such actions not only don't change the law, but they help entrench the attitudes that put that law there, as well as create new allies for anti-gun thinking in the general public.

 

Is it really so hard to understand that the responsible reaction to the Safe Act is to fight it in the courts and to fight the politicians who come up with these laws and to strengthen the organizations that lobby against such laws? Is it really difficult to understand that illegal reactions only reinforce the positions of these anti gun people and draw more allies to their side? That is all I'm saying is to look at the bigger picture and understand that there are legal things that we haven't even yet had a chance to try out or complete. And the more people that seem to find comfort in this idea of simply breaking the law as their way of fighting it make those more useful solutions far more difficult to accomplish.

In my mind,  the "proper response" is to fight this law, legally to the end. I will continue  write letters, e-mail and support the anti SAFE movement. I will vote against the self serving, cowardly politicians who voted for it and who are provided with armed security..  But while all of that is going on and this obvious scam of of a law is in effect, I will not comply with it. I will protect myself and my family with all 10 rounds, while criminal scum continue to victimize people with 10+ rounds.  Over think that.... I look forward to reading your next term paper....

[Early]

This "Doc" guy sure is a character...a perfect example of a government rat: "Oh no, sir, I have no guns, but I can point out the homes of those who do!"

[Doc]

_Doc,

 

_{NYS gun laws will never be overturned in the legislator, maybe in the court, but never by elected officials.}

 

_{Upstate NY is losing population ever year.  Upstate NY‘s young are moving to states that provide better opportunities.  Our kind (sportsmen) are moving to the south and west.}

 

_{NYC and its suburbs continue to grow each year with South American immigrant and anti’s (hunting / gun) from across the nation.  Upstate NY will never again have the population needed to counter downstate NY’s voting power.} 

 

_{It’s just a matter of time before more strict gun and hunting laws get passed in this state.} 

 

_{I don’t think a revolution is needed or will happen, but people vote with their feet.  Hunting and gun ownership will always be accepted in the south, west  and Alaska.  But like minded anti’s are migrating (or staying) in NY, while like-minded hunters and gun owners keep leaving NY.}

 

_{Elections have consequences, sportman will never again have a majority in this state.  Although NY is a beautiful place with abundant natural resources, it is lost to us.  All we can do is to endeavor to persevere}

The point you are ignoring is that you do not have to have a majority to influence elections. How do you think we have had as many Republican governors as we have had? All you really need is dedication to an issue by all members of a particular segment of the population. You have to remember that the population is split among many different ideologies, and alliances to many different candidates and issues. The majority is made impotent simply by the fact that they are diverse, disorganized and not unified by any one issue. However, I have seen a unity among gun owners that I have never seen before. The rallies, the demonstrations, the huge letter writing campaigns, the anti-safe Act discussions on radio and TV, Even these SCOPE signs demanding the repeal of the Safe Act are starting to pop up all over the place. We are that unified and passionate minority that could be channeled into voting as that single unit that the rest of the voters can not match. If we were not so involved in trying to convince ourselves that simply breaking the law will solve everything, perhaps we could be working on making this unified power work as it should. Hopefully we have the right advocacy groups empowered and ready to work on voter registration and motivating gun owners to vote against those that signed that Safe Act. Hey, I'll admit it's a long shot. just looking at how difficult it is to get hunters united on anything here on this forum has certainly pointed up the horrendous odds against getting gun owners to act as a unit. But like I said, we currently have an unparalleled unity in outrage. It sure seems like there is something that could be done with it. It's an opportunity that we really can't afford to screw up. In reality, it is not even necessary to toss all those characters out. All we have to do is make a dent that is significant enough to drive home the point that anti-gun issues can cost some politicians their jobs. That is a message that we have not sent to our legislators in a long, long time.

[Doc]

In my mind,  the "proper response" is to fight this law, legally to the end. I will continue  write letters, e-mail and support the anti SAFE movement. I will vote against the self serving, cowardly politicians who voted for it and who are provided with armed security..  But while all of that is going on and this obvious scam of of a law is in effect, I will not comply with it. I will protect myself and my family with all 10 rounds, while criminal scum continue to victimize people with 10+ rounds.  Over think that.... I look forward to reading your next term paper....

I don't think we are really disagreeing on all that much. Frankly, I have a pump shotgun that serves as home protection, and so I really don't have to even consider risking the felony conviction. I'm sure you understand the hazards of that path and how your life could be permanently impacted. So I'm not going to go over all that again. But I do appreciate the responsible activities that you listed in terms of political activism. That is absolutely something that we must do.

[Doc]

This "Doc" guy sure is a character...a perfect example of a government rat: "Oh no, sir, I have no guns, but I can point out the homes of those who do!"

Is that the most intelligent thing you can add to the discussion? ..... some make-believe conversation? Kind of fits in with the rest of your fantasy view of the world .... lol.

[covert]

Republican governors??  David Paterson was more of a Conservative Republican than Dewey, Rockefeller,and wacky Pataki combined.  Best thing Pataki ever did was lifting the Deet ban and then he put the screws to gun owners almost as hard as lil' Cuomo just did, only he was nice enough to do it to our face instead of in the dead of night.

 

The RINOs in the State Senate led by that Quisling Skelos just showed us how much we can rely on them too.

Edited September 9, 2013 by covert

[Two Track]

Doc,

Some, like me, have written our district reps.  Mine is against this and is trying to get a repeal on the NY Safe Act, but NYC seems to have most of the say - the gerrymandering doesn't help either.  I use to live in Rockland County which was split into three and paired with parts of Westchester County for electing your legislators.  The only thing in common is that they share the Hudson River (from opposite banks), and may work on the other side river.  Voting power is almost nil Rockland county these days. My friends there feel that voting doesn't count except when voting for county and town officials.

 

Now if we have a 10 round capable firearm, we are currently restricted to 7 rounds.  They may try to further reduce this to 5 or 3 rounds for all civilians (assuming they exempt the military and police forces) or even ban semi-automatics period because they don't understand the difference between a that and a fully automatic as seen in the movies.  A lot of gun owners are afraid of the next steps they will take to reduce firearms in this state and country.

 

Most police departments back in the 80's/90's bought military weapons for the SWAT teams or just to have in their department as part of a Federal government buy program.  So the police are militarized already - look at pics of NYC police immediately after the Boston marathon bomb attack - body armor, helmets, and actual assault rifles.  I am not saying that SWAT teams shouldn't have any of this, but huge numbers of regular police officers having this gear makes it look like we are heading to a police-state.  Especially since a few cities have armored assault vehicles.

 

And by the way, illegal confiscation of any firearms was done in the aftermath of Katrina so that is also in the minds of a lot of us.  You had to get a lawyer and go to court to get your guns back, if they were even logged in.  There were cases of police breaking fireams in-front of their owners - there is your rogue LEO's.

 

Sometimes you have to look at worst case senarios and stir up the pot.  Then you can sit down with others so you can put measures into place to prevent (or try to prevent) the worst from occurring.

 

I am not saying we need to have a revolution, but this country was founded on the belief that an unjust government with unjust laws that does not represent the people, should be overthrown by the people in order to restore a just system of laws and government.  This belief has come to surface many times in this country and blood was spelt on these beliefs.  We just need to keep the blood from being spelt again.  When the government is too big, everyone's rights and freedoms get stepped on.  We need to get the right people in office to right the ship before we are all under it and burdened even more under its weight.

 

By the way, if everyone just complied because it is the law we would still have the following:

• segregated church entrances (race and sex [women use to sit in separate pews from the men by virtuous church doctrine])
• segregated restaurants
• segregated bus seating
• segregated schools
• segregated military (race and sex)

Sometimes non-compliance is necessary - just not in this case yet.

 

Edited September 10, 2013 by Two Track

[Doc]

I too got screwed by gerrymandering. However I am hoping that we are able to give that one new guy a career change in his next election attempt. However, I see this as a positive thing because now I am in a position to work against the re-election of at least one of the bastards that voted for the law. Notice I said "work against" and not just "vote against". I intend to take a much more active position in the election that he is involved in.

 

The Katrina incidents were indeed illegal acts by police. They were operating without the rule of law on their side. That is an entirely different scenario than fighting unjust laws, which is what this thread is about.

 

As far as the police being issued adequate equipment to do a dangerous job, that too is another discussion for another topic.

 

The examples of civil disobedience that you listed were effective, but did not involve felonies. Most protesters were held overnight and then released. The marches and protests and the people involved in them had little to fear from the law. It was certain elements of the population that posed the real dangers. So, for those us that want to march on Albany and protest, I am all for that. The exact tactics that were used for the civil rights law changes are things that I endorse as well. But none of that involves felonious activity that is guaranteed to escalate into areas that none of even wants to think of.

 

And like you, I also agree that none of this has risen to the level of revolution.

[Mr VJP]

It is amazing how we are now being compared to Nazi Germany. My gosh we do have a flair for the dramatic ..... lol. It is sad that so many have decided to give up on this country. Sure there is a long list of wrongs that we should be working to right. But it appears that no one has the will to fight the system, with the system. The first thing that comes to mind these days is to simply throw out the baby with the bathwater and worry about the consequences later. Sometimes it does make you wonder if people are really intelligent enough to govern themselves or if they even have the will to do so. But even with some of the crazy things I have read on this thread, I still have faith that there are enough people still left that believe in our system of governance to take on the problems and attack them in sane, effective and responsible ways, in spite of those that would trash the country.

 

Don't confuse distrust of government with trashing the country.  Most people love this country, but can see the government wants to grow large and take control of us.  All of our freedom is declining every day.  The courts have become a system to delay any ability to revoke government abuse.  The money involved in going to court to fight government abuse is obscene, especially when the government also increases our costs by spending our tax dollars to fight us!  And the time it takes to get justice is measured in years, far too long to stop the death spiral.  The government simply overwhelms the judicial system with more abuses than the people can possibly file suit against.  This is why many compare what is happening in the US to what happened in Germany in the 30's.  Don't write off clear observation and foresight as dramatic flair. The similarities are quite clear to anyone with an open mind. The German government corrupted the laws of the land and destroyed the freedom of the citizens little by little over time.  It was all about power and control, as it is in the US today.

 

Nobody is suggesting starting a whole new government from scratch.  What is being suggested is going back to the Constitutional principles this country was founded on.  We are also saying if the government refuses to comply with the law of the land, we are duty bound to reject their abuse, and unless they think we will, they will not comply.  Power only understands power, and the people need to show they still have it, in the face of government abuse of power.

 

You need to ask yourself who set up the system of redress we have available to us, and if that system has been corrupted with too many obstacles to effectively work for the people of this country anymore.  I believe it has.  I also believe our vote has become a joke.  If we cannot remove corrupt, unconstitutional government officials from power with votes or impeachment, and the legal system refuses to overturn their unconstitutional legislation, what do you suggest we do?  Keep playing their game while they continue to trample our rights everyday?

 

No need to reply, Doc.  I already know your answer.  You've made it perfectly clear throughout this thread.

[Doc]

Keep playing their game while they continue to trample our rights everyday?

 

And that is what confuses me. You call ordinary citizen participation and activism, "playing a game". And I have to wonder if you are against legal and political action against these gun laws because that is "their game", what exactly are you advocating in its place? I think you have repeatedly indicated a desire to revolt, but the last several replies you seem to be backing away from that a bit. So, exactly what are you now advocating?

[Mr VJP]

Complete non-violent resistance en-mass by all who are effected by these unconstitutional laws.

 

That is, of course, until THEY start arresting, incarcerating and shooting, which I firmly believe they will.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Mr VJP

[Early]

Doc...did you miss the "no need to reply"....Really, we know where you stand. Now, will you please shut up!

[Doc]

Doc...did you miss the "no need to reply"....Really, we know where you stand. Now, will you please shut up!

You don't like it, don't read it. No one is forcing you into this thread are they? In other words, take your own advice.

[Doc]

Complete non-violent resistance en-mass by all who are effected by these unconstitutional laws.

 

That is, of course, until THEY start arresting, incarcerating and shooting, which I firmly believe they will.

I agree, they will. And when they do, what is your next move? I believe you are smart enough to recognize that eventually it will evolve into shooting confrontations. Unless you are willing to accept jail. You know as well as I do that once you cross that line, you have set in motion events that will lead to no other outcome than outright revolution .... right? So the end-game really involves revolt. Am I missing anything here? I think we have now officially come full circle back to the beginning.....lol.

[jjb4900]

don't worry, there's not enough people in NY concerned about this issue to start an effective revolution.........