Looks like the first real giant of the season has fallen

[Five Seasons]

2 big deer like that in the same general area means there are good genetics, and most likely some management going on there. It doesnt mean they were had raised or farm deer necessarily.

 

yes and no. big deer and freaking giants are 2 separate things, and I understand the "must be something in the water" comments when they appear in consecutive years.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Belo

[WNYBuckHunter]

Oh I understand the skepticism completely, and we will see how it all pans out, Im just saying, the genetics seem to be there, as the one shot last year has held up as a legit wild deer to this point. Im sure it was scrutinized.

[jjb4900]

I think these days, guys who take potential records usually photograph the kill site and have another person present to back up the validity of the kill just to avoid this type of skepticism...........wasn't there a story in NY last year where a guy tried to pull a fast one, and when asked to provide proof, was unable to back up his BS story and eventually he was outed as being full of crap?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yep, a guy in NY tried it last year. It had nothing to do with him not being able to back it up though, the taxidermist knew the deer from the farm it was raised on, plus they aged the jawbone at 2 1/2.

[beachpeaz]

I think these days, guys who take potential records usually photograph the kill site and have another person present to back up the validity of the kill just to avoid this type of skepticism...........wasn't there a story in NY last year where a guy tried to pull a fast one, and when asked to provide proof, was unable to back up his BS story and eventually he was outed as being full of crap?

 

it happens all the time.  Especially with all the advanced things out for growing deer.  There is an increase in the number of deer farms today over even 10 years ago due to increase demand in urine, hides, meet, antlers, etc.  With all the adancements in things like Biologic, etc, people are doing their own food plots and "alternate feeding" sites (A LOT in Texas and Canada).  It brings into question where the line is of "WILD" deer and TRULY WILD deer.  I think that is one of the major reasons why NY doesn't hold a candle to somewhere like IA or IL for example.  It has nothing to do with habitat.  NY has fine habitat.  it has to do with all the suplimental feeding and deer managment.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Oh boy, here we go....

[phade]

OK, so I bash genetics all the time. It 99% of the lands, there isn't a thing people can do to manage free-range genetics.

But, when it comes to world-class bucks, talking 170+ typicals and 200"+ non- typs, only certain areas will produce them with any regularity, and that's where genetics come into play imo. I still don't advocate culling or anything of the sort, but an area has to "have" the capability to produce such bucks - soil, genetics, etc.

Certain areas will top out at x inches for most part. You'll get the occassional super-buck for an area from time to time. But, not regularly. Most non-professional hunters (meaning they aren't traveling to hunt all the time to different prime properties) - ones who have killed multiple world-class bucks do so within a very limited or small geographic area. Of the two that I have spoken to who have multiple B&C bucks, both have shot their bucks within 2-4 sq. mile zones - meaning the 6 the one has was shot within the same 2-4 miles and the other has 4 or so and he's shot them almost all on the same farm. Areas outside of that section still produce good bucks, but not the world-class ones.

[jjb4900]

Yep, a guy in NY tried it last year. It had nothing to do with him not being able to back it up though, the taxidermist knew the deer from the farm it was raised on, plus they aged the jawbone at 2 1/2.

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20121003/NEWS03/710039822

[sampotter]

I'm not claiming any misdoing on the hunter, as I posted a very similar story here in NY.  I have a close friend in WI and there were a whole of things swirling around about how that deer was raised.  Again, nobody said that it was tied to a tree and shot.  I'm just saying that there are circumstances behind that deer even being that big.  THEN having TWO deer in consecutive years over 240" in the same area.  COME ON!  Common sense.  Look at the anters.  Nothing screems "special diet" like when you see that mass and that many points.

 

Whoever sells that "special diet" must be getting rich. Trust me-there is no "special diet" that makes deer grow non-typical points. Freakishly large racks, yes, but non-typical racks like the ones we are talking about start with genetics 1st. Those monster farmed deer have pedigrees that rival your Bluetick coonhound's. I'm not saying that penned deer don't escape or that morons never try to pull a fast one like the guy in Watertown, but I'm not going to agree that every time I see a big non-typical that it should be assumed to have been farm raised. The natural feed and genetics are out there.

[Five Seasons]

it happens all the time.  Especially with all the advanced things out for growing deer.  There is an increase in the number of deer farms today over even 10 years ago due to increase demand in urine, hides, meet, antlers, etc.  With all the adancements in things like Biologic, etc, people are doing their own food plots and "alternate feeding" sites (A LOT in Texas and Canada).  It brings into question where the line is of "WILD" deer and TRULY WILD deer.  I think that is one of the major reasons why NY doesn't hold a candle to somewhere like IA or IL for example.  It has nothing to do with habitat.  NY has fine habitat.  it has to do with all the suplimental feeding and deer managment.

 

You need to educate yourself a little on deer biology. There are many "versions" of the whitetail. The north generally has bigger bodied deer than the south for obvious reasons. Although rack size does not generally change based on area. The giants in the midwest are mostly due to the large, large flat areas of food and decent rainfall. Not to mention the food type that influences antler growth. D&DH tv had a good show on this a few weeks back. They are also far enough north to grow big deer, but not so far that the deer cannot survive the harsh winters. In addition there is more undeveloped land for the giants to grow and hide in then states like NY. I have not lived, nor hunted in Iowa, but I imagine that there is not nearly the food plotting going on there that takes place in drier areas of the south.

 

Edited September 23, 2013 by Belo

[phade]

You need to educate yourself a little on deer biology. There are many "versions" of the whitetail. The north generally has bigger bodied deer than the south for obvious reasons. Although rack size does not generally change based on area. The giants in the midwest are mostly due to the large, large flat areas of food and decent rainfall. They are also far enough north to grow big deer, but not so far that the deer cannot survive the harsh winters. In addition there is more undeveloped land for the giants to grow and hide in then states like NY. I have not lived, nor hunted in Iowa, but I imagine that there is not nearly the food plotting going on there that takes place in drier areas of the south.

 

Soil fertility and northern latitudes....

 

Iowa produces more corn than the entire NE U.S. region combined. One state...produces more than the 8 or so NE states combined.

[WNYBuckHunter]

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20121003/NEWS03/710039822

 

It was all over this site last year.

[bowaholic]

this will probably turn out to be like last years New York record from early season....turned out to be a high fenced deer

[josephmrtn]

both those pics are actually from the same county in WI according to AT.. both September bucks too. 

 

I remember 10 years ago when a basket 8 was the standard 4 yr olds rack around where i hunt. slowly but surely it seems we're getting bigger and bigger racks off the same hills. I dont know if its weather related, better food or has to do with the decreased hunting pressure, but it seems like NY is creeping along.  Hopefully in a few years us upstaters will get bucks the size you Long island guys pass!

Its getting that way up here too!

[beachpeaz]

Whoever sells that "special diet" must be getting rich. Trust me-there is no "special diet" that makes deer grow non-typical points. Freakishly large racks, yes, but non-typical racks like the ones we are talking about start with genetics 1st. Those monster farmed deer have pedigrees that rival your Bluetick coonhound's. I'm not saying that penned deer don't escape or that morons never try to pull a fast one like the guy in Watertown, but I'm not going to agree that every time I see a big non-typical that it should be assumed to have been farm raised. The natural feed and genetics are out there.

You're crazy (respectfully speaking). Almost ALL the places in the country that do these canned hunts (TX for sure and have seen them in MI as well) feed the crap out of the deer with a high protein antler max formula. They have deer over 300" let alone 200" and they are ALL huge non-typical racks. They don't just grow large basket 8's. They even had a hunting show on the sportsmans channel a few weeks back and they were visiting one of them. The guy had 3 or 4 bucks, all over 250" in the same field in front of hi at the same time. He passed them up due to them being too small for the farm...lol

[phade]

You're crazy (respectfully speaking). Almost ALL the places in the country that do these canned hunts (TX for sure and have seen them in MI as well) feed the crap out of the deer with a high protein antler max formula. They have deer over 300" let alone 200" and they are ALL huge non-typical racks. They don't just grow large basket 8's. They even had a hunting show on the sportsmans channel a few weeks back and they were visiting one of them. The guy had 3 or 4 bucks, all over 250" in the same field in front of hi at the same time. He passed them up due to them being too small for the farm...lol

Sam works in a similar and related field. He knows what he is talking about. Nothing has come up to say this buck had any captive history...usually it comes out pretty quick. Face it, wisconsin has more book bucks historically....its not shocking.

[sampotter]

You're crazy (respectfully speaking). Almost ALL the places in the country that do these canned hunts (TX for sure and have seen them in MI as well) feed the crap out of the deer with a high protein antler max formula. They have deer over 300" let alone 200" and they are ALL huge non-typical racks. They don't just grow large basket 8's. They even had a hunting show on the sportsmans channel a few weeks back and they were visiting one of them. The guy had 3 or 4 bucks, all over 250" in the same field in front of hi at the same time. He passed them up due to them being too small for the farm...lol

 

Believing that a "special diet" will cause a buck to grow a nontypical rack is like believing a "special supplement" will increase the size of your manhood. Genetics come 1st. Good nutrition allow genetics to be expressed. A "special diet" lets those intensively bred bucks show what they're made of. I agree that there are grotesque bucks behind fences all over the country and yes, they have been fed some very expensive feed. But- if a buck that only has genetics to be a 6pt is fed the same diet he is only going to be a 6pt, just maybe a lot bigger than if he was in the wild.

 

Remember- there were 300" nontpicals and 200" typicals being killed WAY before any of the high fence stuff started...

[WNYBuckHunter]

Believing that a "special diet" will cause a buck to grow a nontypical rack is like believing a "special supplement" will increase the size of your manhood.

 

Ive been wasting my money then? Is that what youre telling me? Damn!

[sampotter]

Ive been wasting my money then? Is that what youre telling me? Damn!

 

It doesn't work, that's all I'll say....

[WNYBuckHunter]

lol