Question on AR's??

[Lawdwaz]

I have some guys I know in Ontario County that have been practicing AR's over a pretty big chunk of land (500+ acres) and after about 15 years of passing many, many immature bucks they are starting to wonder where all the older bucks are??  Each year they see a fair amount on cameras and in fields late in the summer during evenings and early mornings but when the season gets here they just aren't behind (!) every tree. 

 

These guys are the best deer hunters I know, they do kill some good bucks each year but what should really be seen are some 150+ and up bucks and they are almost non existent.

 

My idea is that any given area can only tolerate just so many older 4.5 years old and up and they keep dispersing and rarely ever get killed because they are so nocturnal.  If each year you keep passing all these 2.5 year old bucks you would think you'd be seeing 3.5, 4.5 and 5.5 year old bucks fairly often, and killing them!!

 

Rambling words I know, your thoughts??

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Unfortunately there could be a vast amount of variables. you can pass every buck for 5 years and if the property won't hold them it wouldn't make a difference if you passed for another 5 years. 500 acres is a pretty sizable chunk but even with the development of food plots there can be things working against you. How hard is the property hunted during the season? Pressure will push the bucks out of the best habitat, especially the older they get. Or force them to be night walkers.

 

How is the property accessed to hunt it?

 

The right 500 acres can be managed to hold matutre bucks but this time of year they will move to where the girls are so having the does calling it home will help as well. Some of the most successful people I have spoken with in the last few years can't seem to say enough obout crazy thick cover/food combinations AND sanctuary areas. There has to be areas they can get to to avoid pressure. If that area isn't on your place, it will be on someone elses. Or in the brush lot behint the Elementary school that no one hunts....lol. Seems like the big boys always find the quiet spots.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Doc]

Ha-ha .... older deer are smarter deer. I've been looking at pictures of an incredible 8 point that shows up pretty regularly at 1:30 in the morning. AR or no AR, nothing is going to make them stupid. They quickly figure out the safety of nocturnal habits.

 

A little related side-question:  I have to wonder how many of these critters succumb to the battles when bigger and older bucks start crowding each other's territories..... not only outright lethal battle wounds, but also the excessive physical exertion from too many violent fights just before the rigors of winter set in. Has anyone ever checked those kinds of mortality losses. Just a little thought that I have always wondered about.

 

Anyway, anyone who expects that AR will produce common sightings of book-buck everywhere, has probably been watching too much Saturday morning TV on the Outdoor Channel .... lol.

[WesternNY]

Here is a great summary.

http://charliealsheimer.com/ca/articles/art_stockpile.html

 

Keeping your goals realistic is key to survival.  Passing 1.5 years olds is the first step.

 

My buddy who hunts my property shot his first bow buck on Saturday eve.. I thought it was perhaps 3.5 but he is 2.5, nice wide buck with great g2's poor 1's but a great buck.  He has hunted my property now 6 seasons and this is his first buck on my farm.   He has seen a lot of great bucks, first time he was able to seal the deal.

 

Keeping it 8 pt min keeps it realistic and yet fun, but it helps by getting the bucks another year or 2, so they have some decent antler.

[WesternNY]

While it is nice to think if we pass and pass on bucks and a good amount of surrounding properties do the same you will have 150 inch bucks running around, it can happen but to the degree most think.

 

Coop where you can get 15 to 20,000 acres in a coop and they exist in WNY can have much better chances than 500 acres.  This is obvious I know.  My point is, passing on 1.5 year olds give you the chance to harvest bucks like this

His first bow buck and biggest in 20 years of hunting.  Not a monster, but much better than a basket 6 or 8 who is just 1.5 that is what passing 1.5's is about, not necessarily 150 inchers.

Jaw bone  = 2.5

 

 

[WesternNY]

 

 

Anyway, anyone who expects that AR will produce common sightings of book-buck everywhere, has probably been watching too much Saturday morning TV on the Outdoor Channel .... lol.

 

Doc is right... AR's based on a 3 pt min will not give us book bucks everywhere... but it will help getting better bucks for everyone to hunt.  I just hope we can do it by education and vol AR, not mandatory.

[thphm]

Western NY, good post and I agree 100%. But the thing is to get most of everybody to think that way.I had a buck born on the property,let him walk every year just to see how he would turn out, I saw him last year and he was sporting a nice 10 point rack and good size body for our area.We will see if he showes up in his favorit spot this year. 

[Lawdwaz]

While it is nice to think if we pass and pass on bucks and a good amount of surrounding properties do the same you will have 150 inch bucks running around, it can happen but to the degree most think.

 

Coop where you can get 15 to 20,000 acres in a coop and they exist in WNY can have much better chances than 500 acres.  This is obvious I know.  My point is, passing on 1.5 year olds give you the chance to harvest bucks like this

His first bow buck and biggest in 20 years of hunting.  Not a monster, but much better than a basket 6 or 8 who is just 1.5 that is what passing 1.5's is about, not necessarily 150 inchers.

Jaw bone  = 2.5

 

Please don't take this the wrong way but that is (as you mentioned) nothing special.  THAT, at 2.5 years old is the buck to let go!

 

 

[Lawdwaz]

Unfortunately there could be a vast amount of variables. you can pass every buck for 5 years and if the property won't hold them it wouldn't make a difference if you passed for another 5 years. 500 acres is a pretty sizable chunk but even with the development of food plots there can be things working against you. How hard is the property hunted during the season? Pressure will push the bucks out of the best habitat, especially the older they get. Or force them to be night walkers.

 

How is the property accessed to hunt it?

 

The right 500 acres can be managed to hold matutre bucks but this time of year they will move to where the girls are so having the does calling it home will help as well. Some of the most successful people I have spoken with in the last few years can't seem to say enough obout crazy thick cover/food combinations AND sanctuary areas. There has to be areas they can get to to avoid pressure. If that area isn't on your place, it will be on someone elses. Or in the brush lot behint the Elementary school that no one hunts....lol. Seems like the big boys always find the quiet spots.

 

The property is hunted fairly hard but only the woods and field edges.  NOBODY goes into the thick red brush and tangles, EVER.  These guys don't fart around.  They have some bucks in the record book, and some beauties that any of us would love to kill but they are few and far between, considering...........

 

My biggest question is of tolerance.  How well do these older (3.5+) bucks tolerate each other??

[WesternNY]

Please don't take this the wrong way but that is (as you mentioned) nothing special.  THAT, at 2.5 years old is the buck to let go!

 

I disagree for a guys first bow buck!   His first bow buck, and his biggest buck of his life.  He is 40. 

 

He harvested it, he is proud, I am happy.     This is part of keeping a program fun, realistic and alive.  Set the bar to high and you will fail.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The property is hunted fairly hard but only the woods and field edges. NOBODY goes into the thick red brush and tangles, EVER. These guys don't fart around. They have some bucks in the record book, and some beauties that any of us would love to kill but they are few and far between, considering...........

My biggest question is of tolerance. How well do these older (3.5+) bucks tolerate each other??

I have no idea of a number. But I am sure once the does on the property are breed whether they are 1.5's or 3.5's. They will wander for more does to breed. Probably fine for over 10 months out of the year but the rest is a crap shoot with 500 acres.

[notasheep]

Ha-ha .... older deer are smarter deer. I've been looking at pictures of an incredible 8 point that shows up pretty regularly at 1:30 in the morning. AR or no AR, nothing is going to make them stupid. They quickly figure out the safety of nocturnal habits.

A little related side-question: I have to wonder how many of these critters succumb to the battles when bigger and older bucks start crowding each other's territories..... not only outright lethal battle wounds, but also the excessive physical exertion from too many violent fights just before the rigors of winter set in. Has anyone ever checked those kinds of mortality losses. Just a little thought that I have always wondered about.

Anyway, anyone who expects that AR will produce common sightings of book-buck everywhere, has probably been watching too much Saturday morning TV on the Outdoor Channel .... lol.

Book bucks is not what ARs are designed to accomplish.ARs will stop spike and four pointers from being killed,obviously,but there is no doubt that the size of the deer and the antler quality would improve.the states around us here in ny where buck age management is taken seriously,oh,wi,mich,il,minn,prove that it works.hunters in pa that I know and speak with say the pa bucks are starting to show that the AR program is working there.

[Lawdwaz]

I disagree for a guys first bow buck!   His first bow buck, and his biggest buck of his life.  He is 40. 

 

He harvested it, he is proud, I am happy.     This is part of keeping a program fun, realistic and alive.  Set the bar to high and you will fail.

 

That's fine but you're the one that said "My point is, passing on 1.5 year olds give you the chance to harvest bucks like this".

 

That isn't the quality of buck this thread is about.

 

The guy has hunted for twenty years and that is his first bow buck and biggest to date?  That's cool as hell, congrats to him but that isn't what I'm referring to in THIS thread.

[Lawdwaz]

 

 

Coop where you can get 15 to 20,000 acres in a coop and they exist in WNY can have much better chances than 500 acres. 

 

Where is there a co-op in WNY with 15-20,000 acres?

[asav2013]

Put some hard thought into this,I do voluntary ar for my self but a 3 point minimum AR is doing nothing but saving spike horns, 3 ponts 4-5-6 1.5 year old are dead, these deer are going to die some how, disease,predators,each other, and cars, ARs are nothing more then a antler management its not deer management, deer management is killing off a certain amount to sustain a safe population number, 4 times this year IV heard of one vehicle hitting another deer and launching it into a on coming vehicle, 3 of those 4 killed the oncoming person, my dads owned a body shop for 16 years now I work for him and 1 a day at minimum we have a new deer hit, every ones greed for antlers is only going to increase the population numbers and they will die some how whether its a bullet/arrow or any other way, I love to kill big bucks as the next guy dont get me wrong but at the end of the season I bought these tags to contribute to managing the deer population numbers to a safe number and that's exactly what I'm gonna do even if it means taking a small buck, new York is looking at all these other states that attract ALOT of hunters because of the size of there deer, its money to the state, plain and simple, the Dec surveys the estimated population number every,year and that determines how many tags are issued , now why would they automatically give you a either sex tag "buck" tag antlerless and another buck tag then possibly stack on 4 more doe tags giving each hunter a possible chance at 7 deer , but we shouldn't shoot em,cuz there horns aren't big enough, in the end after every things said, you pass that 2.5,3.5 to get a chance at him at 4.5 and he gets smacked by a car , I dont pass small bucks because they are gonna be bigger next year , I'm passing them because I know there's a bigger one out there now, deer are gonna survive and the big healthy ones are gonna survive to become mature deer and that's what makes it so hard to kill them for, every one wants it to be easy to kill a big buck but antler restriction's are not the answer, JUST MY OPINION tho, the states gonna do,what makes them,more money no matter what us hunters want or that survey that's going around that most of us prolly won't ever get to,fill out, says

[nyantler]

It basically boils down to older mature bucks are smarter and harder to get a look at... they make very few mistakes... waiting in a tree stand for a 5.5 year old buck to show up is probably going to be a long long wait. Unless you hang out until after dark.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Put some hard thought into this,I do voluntary ar for my self but a 3 point minimum AR is doing nothing but saving spike horns, 3 ponts 4-5-6 1.5 year old are dead, these deer are going to die some how, disease,predators,each other, and cars, ARs are nothing more then a antler management its not deer management, deer management is killing off a certain amount to sustain a safe population number, 4 times this year IV heard of one vehicle hitting another deer and launching it into a on coming vehicle, 3 of those 4 killed the oncoming person, my dads owned a body shop for 16 years now I work for him and 1 a day at minimum we have a new deer hit, every ones greed for antlers is only going to increase the population numbers and they will die some how whether its a bullet/arrow or any other way, I love to kill big bucks as the next guy dont get me wrong but at the end of the season I bought these tags to contribute to managing the deer population numbers to a safe number and that's exactly what I'm gonna do even if it means taking a small buck, new York is looking at all these other states that attract ALOT of hunters because of the size of there deer, its money to the state, plain and simple, the Dec surveys the estimated population number every,year and that determines how many tags are issued , now why would they automatically give you a either sex tag "buck" tag antlerless and another buck tag then possibly stack on 4 more doe tags giving each hunter a possible chance at 7 deer , but we shouldn't shoot em,cuz there horns aren't big enough, in the end after every things said, you pass that 2.5,3.5 to get a chance at him at 4.5 and he gets smacked by a car , I dont pass small bucks because they are gonna be bigger next year , I'm passing them because I know there's a bigger one out there now, deer are gonna survive and the big healthy ones are gonna survive to become mature deer and that's what makes it so hard to kill them for, every one wants it to be easy to kill a big buck but antler restriction's are not the answer, JUST MY OPINION tho, the states gonna do,what makes them,more money no matter what us hunters want or that survey that's going around that most of us prolly won't ever get to,fill out, says

Just for the record an AR program protects more than spikes and there is no significant population increase. They typically issue an increase in doe permits to account for the bucks making it through. I am not I favor of mandatory AR's but your arguments are based on emotion and opinion and not in fact

[nyantler]

Just for the record an AR program protects more than spikes and there is no significant population increase. They typically issue an increase in doe permits to account for the bucks making it through. I am not I favor of mandatory AR's but your arguments are based on emotion and opinion and not in fact

Exactly!

[Lawdwaz]

I don't think NYS can issue ANYMORE DMP's than they do now but I guess guys would have to shoot more doe if they were passing the little bucks up.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I don't think NYS can issue ANYMORE DMP's than they do now but I guess guys would have to shoot more doe if they were passing the little bucks up.

In high population areas like I hunt in 8H. I think they may have to use other methods too. Although I think guys may shoot more does if their buck options were limited the first few years.

[WesternNY]

Where is there a co-op in WNY with 15-20,000 acres?

 

Naples Italy Valley