Yote Bounty!!

[Doc]

It seems like the amount of hawks and owls have multiplied beyond belief. And yes, there has been a huge change in the some of the small game populations because of it. Hawks are deadly on rabbits, but I also wonder what effects they may have had on pheasants and grouse as well. It's a delicate balance to maintain between predators and prey, and probably can never be done flawlessly. But to give complete and total protection to a whole category of predators has to have some negative impacts somewhere. That is just plain promoting a predator at the cost of several prey species. That's not management.

[growalot]

I'm with Pygmy on this....love having the hawks and young eagles catching the currents over our hill hunting....,We lost many due to a few years of logging and then field loss due to farming corn....Unlike yotes...I don't think they recover as well to intrusionn into their habitat ....or multiply even more rapidly as a group after being killed off as yotes do...

[PREDATE]

 

Damn Coopers Hawk tried to impale me walking to the food plot. Guess it had little ones up there..lol 

You wanna see mean, just walk near a momma Goshawk's nest! I swear you can see their fiery red eyes from 50yds.!

 

 

 

[Five Seasons]

Why is it ok for birds of prey to eat but not coyotes?

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

Pure numbers... And birds are cool.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Wonder what stuffing would be best in an Eagle? Do you think a Cab would go well or should you stay with a Chardonnay?

[Doc]

... And birds are cool.

Exactly the same sentiments that an ex-neighbor of ours used to have about deer. How many times did I hear, "Management and population control be damned ..... I like to see the deer"? In fact I have a couple of relatives that feel that way about coyotes. It's the old "doggy-thing".

 

Nothing should be allowed to proliferate in an uncontrolled fashion no matter how "cool" they are.

[Five Seasons]

Exactly the same sentiments that an ex-neighbor of ours used to have about deer. How many times did I hear, "Management and population control be damned ..... I like to see the deer"? In fact I have a couple of relatives that feel that way about coyotes. It's the old "doggy-thing".

Nothing should be allowed to proliferate in an uncontrolled fashion no matter how "cool" they are.

Agreed. But some animals left uncontrolled can be more harmful then others. Invasive species, boar, deer etc off the top of my head being the worst. An out of control squirrel population would not do as much harm as boar.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pygmy]

Reminds me of the old woodsman in the rain forest of Washington State who had reportedly killed and eaten a spotted owl.

 

A federal fish cop was sent to investigate the case... The old woodsman readily admitted shooting the owl and eating it because he was hungry. He said he had no idea it was illegal to do so.

 

The Fed decided that the old boy was sincere and decided to issue him a warning instead of throwing the book at him.

 

Before he left, the Federal Agent said... " Just answer me one question...What does spotted owl taste like ? "

 

The old woodsman told him.. " It tastes like a cross between bald eagle and whooping crane.."

[Doc]

Agreed. But some animals left uncontrolled can be more harmful then others. Invasive species, boar, deer etc off the top of my head being the worst. An out of control squirrel population would not do as much harm as boar.

I'm not sure how to assess the balance of nature aspects of management, but I do sincerely believe that the uncontrolled proliferation of raptor populations does have impacts on small game species. Granted, that's a difficult thought to back up numerically, and is based solely on local observations. It could be completely wrong. But I do believe that our impacts on balances in nature do require our interventions in Mother Nature's more natural methods. Actually, that is the primary justification for hunting. It seems inconsistent to allow a certain species to be completely unchecked when they in turn dictate the population levels of other species. So to make management decisions based on the "coolness" of a certain species seems to me to be the wrong criteria. And I sincerely wonder if that doesn't happen more often than we admit. It is just another variation on the "Bambi-ism" syndrome.

 

But, I am afraid that I am driving this thread way off-topic. I just got sidetracked when the subject of raptor control vs. coyote control came up. Sorry about that.

[growalot]

Guys we know are having some of the best rabbit hunting they've seen in years...and that isn't in our area...here squirrels chipmunks ....even fishers (which we hadn't seen here before) are a common site now...

I don't get your bird of prey  are proliferating out of control stance...Did I miss something?...has there been a concern raised by the DEC any population studies results stating this?

 

The thing I've always thought... is there is an ebb and flow....... rabbits cycle.... too many for a time then very few and the predator population such as fox seem to match that...I know that is what we see here...right now every thing is in abundance...just 2 years ago we rarely saw rabbits...no chipmunks to speak of and few fox...
 

I know I mentioned fox not the birds of prey...but they're included in that...though ours have remained steady until...they had habitat disruption .....Lord help us if birds of prey take a severe dip in population...for the rodents and all there nasty diseases will multiply out of control....

Edited December 28, 2013 by growalot

[Doc]

Guys we know are having some of the best rabbit hunting they've seen in years...and that isn't in our area...here squirrels chipmunks ....even fishers (which we hadn't seen here before) are a common site now...

I don't get your bird of prey  are proliferating out of control stance...Did I miss something?...has there been a concern raised by the DEC any population studies results stating this?

 

The thing I've always thought... is there is an ebb and flow....... rabbits cycle.... too many for a time then very few and the predator population such as fox seem to match that...I know that is what we see here...right now every thing is in abundance...just 2 years ago we rarely saw rabbits...no chipmunks to speak of and few fox...

 

I know I mentioned fox not the birds of prey...but they're included in that...though ours have remained steady until...they had habitat disruption .....Lord help us if birds of prey take a severe dip in population...for the rodents and all there nasty diseases will multiply out of control....

First of all, it is now a cause for celebration when I find a rabbit track anymore. So perhaps it is a local aberration, but one doesn't have to be too observant to see a huge increase in raptors over the past decades, and a distinct scarcity of certain members of their food supply. That has been the situation for several years now. Grouse in our area are all but extinct. I am not blaming that all on raptors, and I do understand the role that other predators are playing in those rabbit scarcities, but I am noting that they are one of the prime predators of those species and unlike any other predators, they are completely protected. We seem to be actively trying to extinguish one class of predator, but are filled with some kind of emotional awe with another. I don't get it.

 

Second, regarding the boom in raptor population, I am assuming that you don't look up too often .... lol. They really are not all that hard to see. Or how about the hawks all perched on the electric wires all along any highway. You haven't noticed them? It really is not all that hard to see a distinct increase in their populations. And why is that? ...... Because they are one of the very few species that receive 100% protection.

 

I am not claiming to have done any sort of scientific biological study or critter-count, just simple observations along with the fact that this class of bird species enjoys 100% total protection and other than the occasional automobile, they seem to be at the top of their food chain with virtually no population controls. They are treated like an endangered species which of course they are not.

 

Also, note that I am not advocating their extinction. I simply see no reason for them not to be controlled like any other species.

 

[Pygmy]

Point well made, Doc...

 

A number of years ago I was talking to the head DEC biologist in region 8. His name  was Jim Fodge and he was head honcho for a number of years back in the 70s or thereabouts.

 

He said that  he saw  no biological  reason  against regulated harvest of certain raptors.. I think he was talking about red tailed hawks in particular.

 

Of course that is a moot point due to the fact that they are totally protected at the federal level.

 

Edited December 28, 2013 by Pygmy

[Doc]

Yeah, now that you mention it, they are protected by the feds. Well, that explains the mindless non-management.

[growalot]

Actually I do look up when I'm out in the woods daily...I have also seen... since I was a young kid many many hawk sitting on power lines lining the road...which line fields...we are talking 45 yrs ago...not much different then to now...they congregate where the easiest hunting is...field edges...which...at the time was the Abby's wheat fields and now I'd assume corn fields...

I was asking about government studies not your personal ones....

Of course there are localized population deviations just like deer ...yotes.. raccoon ect..ect

Have you considered the lack of your rabbit sightings could just be your own land management...(not a dig)...Our rabbits multiplied rapidly with the inclusion of the many brush piles and plots I've put in the groups of pine and bramble.wild rose clumps I've allowed.Lets talk about Grouse...The DEC will tell you it's a habitat issue...which is why they were paying ppl the cut their mature popular stands ....which has a big impact on grouse habitat

Have you considered that the folks that study these species realize they have their own natural control in disease and brood raising...that their control in nature is in direct alinement to the whims of human encroachment of their habitat?...that any more control by humans could swiftly tip a delicate balance in the wrong direction? You should study up on bird diseases and pests such as lice...and how those things affect numbers and survival...just like mange in fox...fleas in squirrels...rabies in raccoons...ect..ect

 

Ps ...here in case your missing them...

Edited December 28, 2013 by growalot

[Doc]

Actually I do look up when I'm out in the woods daily...I have also seen... since I was a young kid many many hawk sitting on power lines lining the road...which line fields...we are talking 45 yrs ago...not much different then to now...they congregate where the easiest hunting is...field edges...which...at the time was the Abby's wheat fields and now I'd assume corn fields...

I was asking about government studies not your personal ones....

Of course there are localized population deviations just like deer ...yotes.. raccoon ect..ect

Have you considered the lack of your rabbit sightings could just be your own land management...(not a dig)...Our rabbits multiplied rapidly with the inclusion of the many brush piles and plots I've put in the groups of pine and bramble.wild rose clumps I've allowed.Lets talk about Grouse...The DEC will tell you it's a habitat issue...which is why they were paying ppl the cut their mature popular stands ....which has a big impact on grouse habitat

Have you considered that the folks that study these species realize they have their own natural control in disease and brood raising...that their control in nature is in direct alinement to the whims of human encroachment of their habitat?...that any more control by humans could swiftly tip a delicate balance in the wrong direction? You should study up on bird diseases and pests such as lice...and how those things affect numbers and survival...just like mange in fox...fleas in squirrels...rabies in raccoons...ect..ect

Ok, so you have some sort of active rabbit habitat activity going. So that makes your property non typical. Our situation like almost all, takes that variable out of the results. Observations are not tainted by any off-setting actions.

 

As far as the hawk populations being the same, I just have to respectfully disagree. The increase is significant and noticeable.

 

All species are subject to diseases. There is nothing unique to hawks that makes them any more susceptible than any other critter. And so I can see no argument that makes it necessary to give them 100% protection ...... anymore than one could argue that because foxes get mange and distemper and any number of the common diseases that they can contract, they should be afforded 100% protection. It simply doesn't make any sense.

 

Look, I understand the emotional aspects that come to mind when it comes to the hawks, but if management decisions begin to hinge on how we feel about a particular species it probably is not too far out of line to wonder about that policy. Of course it is the federal government that we are talking about, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for something sensible to be done with that issue .... lol.

[growalot]

Doc this is just redundant unless you can show me the numbers and studies that show this tremendous increase you keep mentioning...so Opinions said and done...moving on...

Well not quite yet...The impact mange has on fox could be wildly different than say an avian flu or lice out break in birds...they are TOTALLY a different species...come on lets get real with the purposed arguments...now I'll move on...lol

Edited December 28, 2013 by growalot

[Doc]

Doc this is just redundant unless you can show me the numbers and studies that show this tremendous increase you keep mentioning...so Opinions said and done...moving on...

Well not quite yet...The impact mange has on fox could be wildly different than say and avian flu or lice out break in birds...they are TOTALLY a different species...come on lets get real with the purposed arguments...now I'll move on...lol

Well, you are exactly right. I stated very clearly that what I am saying is an opinion. You know, that is what we do on forums .... state opinions. These are my observations, and I have been very clear that that is all they are. Probably as good as anyone's and even yours ..... lol. I never said that you must agree with me. I never said that you have to reply. If you don't agree with my observations and conclusions, that certainly is your right. Have at it ......or not.

[growalot]

[Five Seasons]

I'm not sure how to assess the balance of nature aspects of management, but I do sincerely believe that the uncontrolled proliferation of raptor populations does have impacts on small game species. Granted, that's a difficult thought to back up numerically, and is based solely on local observations. It could be completely wrong. But I do believe that our impacts on balances in nature do require our interventions in Mother Nature's more natural methods. Actually, that is the primary justification for hunting. It seems inconsistent to allow a certain species to be completely unchecked when they in turn dictate the population levels of other species. So to make management decisions based on the "coolness" of a certain species seems to me to be the wrong criteria. And I sincerely wonder if that doesn't happen more often than we admit. It is just another variation on the "Bambi-ism" syndrome.

But, I am afraid that I am driving this thread way off-topic. I just got sidetracked when the subject of raptor control vs. coyote control came up. Sorry about that.

I do agree. I did not mean to sound like raptor control was not important too, just that different species have different levels of impact and therefore we can't treat them all the same.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jjb4900]

Did you ever notice there's always a pet store or animal clinic near those Chinese Buffets?

 

There was tiwt on talk radio last week worried about her cat. I hunt Yotes and know a lot of Yote huters. They are very dedicated and educated in coyotes and certainly know the difference between a 8 pound cat and a 45 pound plus Coyotes. 

that's messed up, I know a lot of people who have worked in pet stores and animal clinics and they don't eat Chinese food.......

[Pygmy]

I agree that   raptor numbers today appear to be higher than they were  back when  Doc and I were kids,  back in the Jurassic Age...Hehehehe..

 

No doubt there are several factors involved.. One factor is that 30 or 40 years ago, many hunters and farmers shot hawks on sight, despite the fact that they were protected..I know lots of people who shot hawks and I admit I shot my share ( I think the statute of limitations has run out) . Other factors like banning DDT no doubt had an effect as well, and may well be the biggest reason for the recovery of certain raptors such as eagles and ospreys.

 

However, another  factor is involved.  Most raptors are NOT especially prolific. In general they don't raise multiple broods per year and don't raise many nestlings per brood.  A pair of hawks or owls might raise one or two nestlings per year, unlike some species that raise multiple large broods per year..

 

SO, even when they are relatively plentiful, they are never REAL plentiful...   

[Jennifer]

I agree that   raptor numbers today appear to be higher than they were  back when  Doc and I were kids,  back in the Jurassic Age...Hehehehe..

 

No doubt there are several factors involved.. One factor is that 30 or 40 years ago, many hunters and farmers shot hawks on sight, despite the fact that they were protected..I know lots of people who shot hawks and I admit I shot my share ( I think the statute of limitations has run out) . Other factors like banning DDT no doubt had an effect as well, and may well be the biggest reason for the recovery of certain raptors such as eagles and ospreys.

 

However, another  factor is involved.  Most raptors are NOT especially prolific. In general they don't raise multiple broods per year and don't raise many nestlings per brood.  A pair of hawks or owls might raise one or two nestlings per year, unlike some species that raise multiple large broods per year..

 

SO, even when they are relatively plentiful, they are never REAL plentiful...   

 

Add in the fact that many raptor species are migratory to the mix, and that they cross international borders during migrations, and it is a whole different ballgame than something like a coyote. Management, if there were to be any (I don't honestly think there ever will be), would be immensely complicated. You think the DEC is inept when it comes to monitoring and managing a non-migratory deer herd? Imagine international management of migratory raptors.

Of course, we DO harvest other migratory birds such as waterfowl, but they procreate at many times the rate as most raptors do. It's not quite as cut and dry as it seems.

 

All that said, I do not really support a bounty on any species. Predators play an important role in our ecosystems and it's a bit egotistical to think that only humans can or should manage or have access to prey populations.. or even that we know or understand fully "how many" of any given species is ideal. Surely, we do studies and can make educated guesses as to populations (in which overpopulation can lead to disease, overpredation, and starvation in some species), but I don't think a bounty is a good management approach. I find some of our more embarrassing moments are those in history where people have knocked back or even made extinct entire species with our attempts to out-compete them for prey. Not that I begrudge hunters that needed to protect food supplies during the 'shoot it to survive' days- I would have done the same- but we do have a history of doing stupid things from time to time in regards to wiping animals out. Seeing a lot of any given predator and a reduction of any given prey species is looking too hard at the tree and not seeing the forest-- not looking at the whole picture. Our development and habitat fragmentation have put a lot more hurting on critters than 'letting' a predator population rebound. There are way more factors at play than simple predation to know exactly what is going on, and some prey populations are cyclical even during ideal conditions! Rabbits and grouse come to mind, even without predation. All of this said, I do not think predator hunting is bad. Not at all! I just am not happy with the idea of bounties. But that is my personal opinion only and I respect anyone that disagrees with it. I don't think poorly of anyone that thinks differently than I.

 

No hard feelings, just my disjointed thoughts!

[Ford]

Add in the fact that many raptor species are migratory to the mix, and that they cross international borders during migrations, and it is a whole different ballgame than something like a coyote. Management, if there were to be any (I don't honestly think there ever will be), would be immensely complicated. You think the DEC is inept when it comes to monitoring and managing a non-migratory deer herd? Imagine international management of migratory raptors.

Of course, we DO harvest other migratory birds such as waterfowl, but they procreate at many times the rate as most raptors do. It's not quite as cut and dry as it seems.

 

All that said, I do not really support a bounty on any species. Predators play an important role in our ecosystems and it's a bit egotistical to think that only humans can or should manage or have access to prey populations.. or even that we know or understand fully "how many" of any given species is ideal. Surely, we do studies and can make educated guesses as to populations (in which overpopulation can lead to disease, overpredation, and starvation in some species), but I don't think a bounty is a good management approach. I find some of our more embarrassing moments are those in history where people have knocked back or even made extinct entire species with our attempts to out-compete them for prey. Not that I begrudge hunters that needed to protect food supplies during the 'shoot it to survive' days- I would have done the same- but we do have a history of doing stupid things from time to time in regards to wiping animals out. Seeing a lot of any given predator and a reduction of any given prey species is looking too hard at the tree and not seeing the forest-- not looking at the whole picture. Our development and habitat fragmentation have put a lot more hurting on critters than 'letting' a predator population rebound. There are way more factors at play than simple predation to know exactly what is going on, and some prey populations are cyclical even during ideal conditions! Rabbits and grouse come to mind, even without predation. All of this said, I do not think predator hunting is bad. Not at all! I just am not happy with the idea of bounties. But that is my personal opinion only and I respect anyone that disagrees with it. I don't think poorly of anyone that thinks differently than I.

 

No hard feelings, just my disjointed thoughts!

 

A very well thought out post.

 

I will be honest. I would like less predators because I like seeing plenty of game. Right or wrong, there are a lot now...

 

I love seeing owls, there are a bunch at my place in Chenango County. Big ones too. In the spring /summer sounds like they are having owl wars at night there are so many...

 

[Doc]

Unfortunately, the bounty system has not been demonstrated to be significantly effective. It turns out to be good tax money burnt up without the benefit of results.

 

Do I have some moral issue with it? ..... Not a bit. But I do have an issue with throwing money away.