My deer are starving...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You need to spell this part out, tell them that means starvation.

Do you think this protein theory would only be true in the winter?

 

 

These words below spells out the whole winter theory thing.

 

(Quote)

Feeding deer hay or corn can kill them, because they cannot always digest it. Deer digestion involves protozoa and bacteria that help break down food. Different micro-organisms help digest different types of vegetation. If a deer has been feeding on aspen or willows, it has built up the micro-organisms that digest only this kind of vegetation. If this same deer suddenly fills its stomach with corn or hay, it may not have enough of the corn- and hay-digesting micro-organisms in its stomach to digest the food. A deer can starve to death with a full stomach

 

If a deer has been feeding on aspen or willows!!!!!!    What about a deer that has been eating corn,soybeans, alfalfa and such all fall and most of the winter?  Hence the stomach bacteria has not changed over to 100% woody foods>

[sweet old bill]

use to have cut corn under big plastict in the feed lot and the deer would wait for my son in law to take a bucket of the corn  for the cattle and follow him and eat with the beef. They also all summer when the corn was ready for picking in the field all day eating away.

 

I am aware of several hunting clubs use to have in Feb a work day on there lands to cut brush for deer. The brush piles also then made great holding areas for birds and rabbit.

[landtracdeerhunter]

People; all sit in trees asked is if their was anything he could feed his starving deer.

 

[landtracdeerhunter]

use to have cut corn under big plastict in the feed lot and the deer would wait for my son in law to take a bucket of the corn  for the cattle and follow him and eat with the beef. They also all summer when the corn was ready for picking in the field all day eating away.

 

I am aware of several hunting clubs use to have in Feb a work day on there lands to cut brush for deer. The brush piles also then made great holding areas for birds and rabbit.

 

Yeah, the deer, bunnies, and other wildlife come in my feed lot at night and clean up the left over hay. Even the birds pick up the dried leaves.

 

[mike rossi]

People; all sit in trees asked is if their was anything he could feed his starving deer.

 

 

Yeah, he is looking for some moral support for ways he thinks he can loophole the law or is opening this topic to mock science or scientists. He doesn't even know for sure the deer are starving... When he gets blood work done I wonder if he interprets the lab results for his physician... I remember a moderator on here  locked  a thread when someone encouraged  breaking the law,  I wonder why they let this one go on...

 

And even IF they were starving, why would doing something that interferes with their absorption of food help? By now you should know what that something is....

[nyantler]

I still can't believe the resistance by some to accept that deer starving and death is part of the natural order of things in the wild... we go as far as to hate other animals such as coyotes because they sometimes have "Your" deer on their menu as a food source. Its amazing what some will do and say in the name of "their" deer hunting which has little to do with real conservation or deer management.

[Five Seasons]

those that are compelled to write a novel on this forum need to know that 90% of us do not read them. Your points need to be short and to the point. This is the internet. Studies show you have 7 seconds to get someones attention.

[nyantler]

those that are compelled to write a novel on this forum need to know that 90% of us do not read them. Your points need to be short and to the point. This is the internet. Studies show you have 7 seconds to get someones attention.

I'm only interested in the 10% that do read the entire posts... the 90% you are talking about are usually the uninformed anyway because they refuse to take longer than 7 seconds for anything... and it usually shows

[mike rossi]

those that are compelled to write a novel on this forum need to know that 90% of us do not read them. Your points need to be short and to the point. This is the internet. Studies show you have 7 seconds to get someones attention.

 

I got news for you, we gave up on the 90%. It is the 10 % we are trying to reach. If you want 8th grade level answers to complex questions, call the DEC because they are trained to communicate that way in order to reach the 90%.

[Geno C]

As we have all heard, CWD was found in Oneida County, New York. CWD was confirmed on 2 different farms, the 1st farm owned by John Palmer and the 2nd by Martin Proper.   The 1st positive was a 6-year-old doe that was harvested for a fireman's benefit dinner. In talking to John, he said, "I picked out the fattest, healthiest looking doe I had."   Most people have been led to believe that CWD-positive deer exhibit signs of poor health, but the deer farming industry has found this to be untrue. The vast majority of those animals that have tested positive have shown little, if any signs of sickness.   The herd was depopulated only days after the 1st positive was found. On a Tuesday morning, sharpshooters came in and after 6 hours had put down the remaining 18 deer. Samples were collected and sent in for analysis. Friday the results were back; 3 more positives were found for CWD. These 3 deer all came from New York State's Rehabilitation Program. John Palmer acquired these deer from New York's wild population through conservation officers.   John Palmer's herd started when he purchased a few deer from Ohio in 1994. Later, he added other deer from a New York source. 7 years ago John started rehabilitating fawns. John said he took in 1-14 fawns per year from all over New York. John had the responsibility of determining whether the fawn could be released back into the wild or had to stay forever in a pen in his privately owned herd. He also relocated some of these fawns to other producers. This is how Martin Proper came into the picture.   Martin Proper is the owner of the 2nd positive herd. The animal that tested positive for CWD on his farm was a 4- or 5-year-old buck that died from pneumonia, another rehabilitated wild deer from New York. Martin received 2 deer from John Palmer's herd; one doe that was blind and one doe born with only 3 feet. They had bred and had produced some offspring. The aforementioned buck killed one of these does during last year's rut, and was not tested because it happened before their CWD Program was up and running. The rest of Martin's herd was put down and samples analyzed. No other positives were found.   There were 5 positives found in these 2 herds; 4 were deer taken from the wild [as rehabilitated fawns]. It is unclear to John where the very first doe originated, but he felt it could have originated from the wild as well.   Taking deer from the wild is not condoned by the cervid industry and is strongly discouraged; nonetheless, it did happen with the deer in this situation.   A statement released by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) on 5 Apr 2005 announced plans to conduct intensive monitoring of the wild deer population surrounding both farms to determine whether CWD has spread to the wild herds.   The NYS DEC has already directed blame towards the farmed deer industry for bringing CWD into New York, even though there is a clear history of the DEC taking deer out of the wild and placing them into John Palmer's herd for rehabilitation. The question should be, "Where did the wild deer of New York get CWD?"   Adding to the questions, without any answers, John is a taxidermist and has taken work from all over North America. He mentioned receiving work from the following states and Canadian province: Saskatchewan, Montana, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Colorado and Wyoming. When looking at where CWD has been found in the wild, many of these locations appear on that list.   In a study released by Beth Williams and Mike Miller, they noted that [a deer] was just as likely to contract CWD from a live infected deer as it was to be housed in a pen with a dead positive carcass.   Did one or more of the many dead animals brought into John's taxidermy studio have CWD? John stated that he kept the rehabilitation fawns in the same garage where he did much of his taxidermy work. It was common practice for John to sweep up his shop and deposit the salt and chemicals along the deer fence as a weed retardant.   The industry has always said that movement of CWD-positive carcasses would move CWD much faster and farther than moving live animals. Is the New York situation just that? Is there a need to regulate movement of CWD-positive carcasses?   There are many points that come to the forefront from the situation in New York:   * The detection of CWD in New York clearly shows that the monitoring system is working. These programs are set up to identify herds at risk.   * This event highlights the need for surveillance. Without the state monitoring/surveillance programs, these positive deer would not be detected. The more herds on these programs, the lower the risk.   * In the face of CWD, the best defense is herd monitoring/surveillance. What better way to get participation than to recognize those who have already participated in these programs and allow for continued movement for their herds that have met the needed criteria? The event in New York has _in no way_ compromised the health status of any herd that has been enrolled in a CWD monitoring/surveillance program.   * CWD conjures up many questions that remain unanswered. There is a continued need for the government agencies involved and the industry to work together to resolve some of those questions.   * As previously seen, in discoveries of CWD, including this New York case, all too often the producer is portrayed as a villain. There is no one who wants this "disease" to be found on their property. When CWD is found, the industry expects the producers to be treated fairly and with respect. The finger-pointing and intimidation tactics are _not_ needed to resolve the issues involved with CWD and private ownership of deer in the United States.   Deer farmers are fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters. They have served this country in the armed forces. Deer farmers come from all walks of life; doctors, lawyers, carpenters, plumbers, and housekeepers. The one thing they all have in common is the passion they have for their deer. Let us work together to resolve the issues that CWD brings to the forefront across this great country of ours.     Gary Nelson, President NADeFA [email protected]   [it has been reported in other newspaper sources that the owner of index herd in NY not only put the salt and other products from cleaning up his taxidermy work along his fence lines -- thus exposing his captive herd -- but also that the fawns in the taxidermy garage area may have licked, mouthed, or chewed on entrails from some deer.   It is stated in this NADeFA release that the owner of the index herd was to decide whether the rehabilitated deer could return to the wild or were not capable of survival on their own, presumably because of serious injury, such as 3 legs, or imprinting on people. However, he was instructed to turn some loose in the wild.   If the fawn or fawns in question consumed -- or otherwise contacted -- infected tissues in the taxidermy shop and then were released to the wild, then it could be speculated that NYS DEC would likely find exposed wild animals. If the fawn was originally wild, exposed through taxidermy work on other wild animals, and then released back to the wild, it would be difficult to say that captive animals brought disease to wild animals. It would be more acceptable to say the wild animals have introduced this disease to captive animals.

ive done a lot of reading about CWD and so on... many of what you wrote is news to me, seems to be a more defined line of origin in regards to CWD and i guess i will keep reading into and seeing what i can dig up. However, and heres where there is no pun intended as i do know what you do and i dont have a problem with how people make their money or enjoy their spare time as it is legal. Having said that no matter how you slice it, this disease always seems to catch buzz in relation to deer farms, period. Odss for contracting the deer seem to be VERY high in deer facilities. Now, ill play devils advocate here. If John palmer did not run a deer farm and was simply doing taxidermy work, DO YOU  THINK that CWD would have been an issue in 2005?  Seems like the susceptibility due to the higher confined concentration of deer led to the cwd in those deer. im not going to agree that this disease was brought about from free range deer, i just wont. the percentage in my eyes are way to small vs where the likely hood of where these diseases are most common and most attributed. And please, again do not take offence, my comments are simply coming from inside and in no way meant to be a stab at you. Just so happens that i did a lot of reading and so fourth on this stuff as well due to many many hunters throwing this word around with little regard to what it is and how it works. I did read somewhere that once a deer contracts CWD the possibility for spreading with bodily fluids is there and also once the deer dies, especially in the wild from CWD that the disease remains with that carcass for quite sometime to come, making the chances for free range deer to contract it very possible. I was imply saying and will continue to say it based on what i read, hear, see and know that corn piles and feed blocks has little impact on CWD in the wild. with the amount of illegal activity going on year round and especially during hunting season, if what the DEC says about CWD and baiting this state would be in a state of emergency in regards to deer hunting and the amount of bait used each year in NYS illegally. and its not... so for some to keep throwing the CWD word around i think need to step off their own land perhaps? and really get to know whats going on in this state in general. its not all blue skies and butterflies, people dont always follow the law. and no im not saying step off your land and walk your neighbors, but go in some state land or watch the amount of pics that flow in this site when tral cam season comes and see how many actually bait, willingly or not.

[Geno C]

Yeah, he is looking for some moral support for ways he thinks he can loophole the law or is opening this topic to mock science or scientists. He doesn't even know for sure the deer are starving... When he gets blood work done I wonder if he interprets the lab results for his physician... I remember a moderator on here  locked  a thread when someone encouraged  breaking the law,  I wonder why they let this one go on...

 

And even IF they were starving, why would doing something that interferes with their absorption of food help? By now you should know what that something is....

 

 

because i dont see anyone saying yes go throw feed blocks out or throw corn all over the place and its ok.. i dont see anyone condoning that. A topic like this, although may see it different i think is a good thing. there may be one guy saying hes putting feed down but he also works a deer farm with permits id assume and hope.

 

although i can agree with everyone who stated deer will find a way and its natures way of leveling out capacity, i couldn't agree more... If guys care that much about the health of the herd and i do also, then some should look into late season planting to carry those deer through the winter no matter how easy or hard the winter is..

[Geno C]

I'm only interested in the 10% that do read the entire posts... the 90% you are talking about are usually the uninformed anyway because they refuse to take longer than 7 seconds for anything... and it usually shows

 

 

very true joe lol

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Geno, I wont argue with any of your thought because thats you right and wont turn this post into cwd but you see  where the deer came from at the start. The wild.  

 I will say, (Reguardless of what i do for a living) if anyone reading these words thinks for one second that the DEC will say and do WHATEVER it takes to keep the thousands of dollars rolling into their coffers from Ny hunting tag sales then you are fools. The safe act, DEC style.   High fence is taking so many hunters out of the states pockets every year. They see farming as the places that keep these high fences in business. CWD is nothing but a tool used for money and politics and trust me when i say here in the very near future when these live tests( That are already working in science) comes to the farmers near you , you will see a 100% turnaround on their thought and use of CWD as a tool to fulfill their agenda!

 

Its funny that science live animal testing that is being paid for by the deer farms and ranches across the country are starting to show that it can be done yet your states say that cwd can be spread by body fluids yet cant be found by testing those same positive deer fluids?   Its all about the money but we are footing the bill on this one to prove one thing and when that happens you will see many more people making a great living behind fence. 

[Geno C]

I think me and you are making the same points here n there but wording it differently... There's things I am agreeing with you on but I don't think your seeing it that way. When anyone talks baiting, the word cwd is quickly thrown out and I'm not so quick to jump on that ban wagon as I am very aware what occures year round in this state all over. Now, I don't want to make this thread about cwd, I was Simply touching on my beleifs on that matter is all whether I'm a scientist or not.

And anyone else here, I'm not saying lets bait but if your going to throw down the cwd gauntlet lets be aware of the last known cwd case and how often many people bait. That is all for now.

[blurr18us]

I still can't believe the resistance by some to accept that deer starving and death is part of the natural order of things in the wild... 

  List of things that arent a wild and natural part of a deers' life, in NYS.

 

 1 Oct 1 to Dec 22.  Bows, rifles, muzzleloaders, deer drives etc.

 2 Food plots

 3 Urban and suburban sprawl moving into deer habitat

 4 Highways, roads, cars

 5 Cornfields, beanfields, alfalfa fields..

 

 All of these are man made and influences the health and numbers of the deer herd.

 I have nothing bad to say about any of these items, just pointing out that a deer does not really live in a wild and natural

 environment.

 

  I

[mike rossi]

Do you think this protein theory would only be true in the winter?

 

 

These words below spells out the whole winter theory thing.

 

(Quote)

Feeding deer hay or corn can kill them, because they cannot always digest it. Deer digestion involves protozoa and bacteria that help break down food. Different micro-organisms help digest different types of vegetation. If a deer has been feeding on aspen or willows, it has built up the micro-organisms that digest only this kind of vegetation. If this same deer suddenly fills its stomach with corn or hay, it may not have enough of the corn- and hay-digesting micro-organisms in its stomach to digest the food. A deer can starve to death with a full stomach

 

If a deer has been feeding on aspen or willows!!!!!!    What about a deer that has been eating corn,soybeans, alfalfa and such all fall and most of the winter?  Hence the stomach bacteria has not changed over to 100% woody foods>

 

Yes, rumen acidosis is less prevalent when the deer have had access to the same (or even possibly closely related) foods which  are provided as supplemental feed. However rumen acidosis is not restricted to the winter, it can and does occur through out the entire year.

 

Although any laterally transmitted disease of deer (* not something like EHD) is more likely in winter due to the behavior of deer to congregate or "yard" during the cold months, there are several other diseases linked to supplemental feeding which are not otherwise linked to winter, such as CWD... So feeding is not good anytime of the year... 

 

*The reason EHD is not linked to winter or feeding, is that it is transmitted by a vector, rather than deer to deer or body fluid to deer... I am not going to delve into the life cycle of the vector, lets just say it isn't active in the winter... And just to be precise and clear: rumen acidosis is not laterally transmitted either. Lateral or horizontal transmission refers to direct contact with other animals or body fluids.

[mike rossi]

What the heck are you talking about in post 90? Test the urine on the ground for infectious prions? I don't really know if such testing is possible but what good would it do? Oh, okay Bub your soil got piss in it with infectious prions, can you stop the feeding? I know were just scientists, but would ya take are word for it that their are prions, pretty please there chief? I know you got all this common sense and all that, but would ya just take our word about it, pretty please old bub? Oh, and by the way, we have to shoot all the deer within a square mile, think we can start on your property tonight  old bub?

 

Are you effin out of your mind?

Edited February 18, 2014 by mike rossi

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Yes, rumen acidosis is less prevalent when the deer have had access to the same (or even possibly closely related) foods which  are provided as supplemental feed. However rumen acidosis is not restricted to the winter, it can and does occur through out the entire year.

 

Although any laterally transmitted disease of deer (* not something like EHD) is more likely in winter due to the behavior of deer to congregate or "yard" during the cold months, there are several other diseases linked to supplemental feeding which are not otherwise linked to winter, such as CWD... So feeding is not good anytime of the year... 

 

*The reason EHD is not linked to winter or feeding, is that it is transmitted by a vector, rather than deer to deer or body fluid to deer... I am not going to delve into the life cycle of the vector, lets just say it isn't active in the winter... And just to be precise and clear: rumen acidosis is not laterally transmitted either. Lateral or horizontal transmission refers to direct contact with other animals or body fluids.

I was talking more about the theory that a deer will not retain protein as was said in a few posts back.    One tends to learn alot from something after living with them 24/7 365 days a year for over 15 years. Although they throw a curve ball at times.

[mike rossi]

I was talking more about the theory that a deer will not retain protein as was said in a few posts back.    One tends to learn alot from something after living with them 24/7 365 days a year for over 15 years. Although they throw a curve ball at times.

 

You are outrageous. Your question above has already been answered.  

 

This is no longer a theory, its been replicated by experiment after introducing every possible variable. Then the entire procedure and conclusions where reviewed by a different panel of scientists.... In other words, its accepted by the scientific and veterinary medicine community as fact.... Its just not accepted by you and others...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

What the heck are you talking about in post 90? Test the urine on the ground for infectious prions? I don't really know if such testing is possible but what good would it do? Oh, okay Bub your soil got piss in it with infectious prions, can you stop the feeding? I know were just scientists, but would ya take are word for it that their are prions, pretty please there chief? I know you got all this common sense and all that, but would ya just take our word about it, pretty please old bub?

 

Are you effin out of your mind?

Are you serious. We( Science) have test after test of every body fluid there is in a deer, taken out of a lab lymph tested positive cwd deer and no cwd prions are found in any of their fluids.   If you believe a cwd positive deer can sit there and lick,piss or crap on another deer and give that deer cwd then why cant that same positive deer body fluid be tested?

 Show me one case where it has been shown,proven, tested body fluid where a cwd prion has been found.  Why and how do you think we are doing these live tests.  We have cwd positive animals to work with.    If you believe cwd can passed around by deer via body fluids then why i ask can they not find any prions in the fluids?    Back to your books. You are so behind as far as where we are in cwd testing you make yourself look like a fool.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You are outrageous. Your question above has already been answered.  

 

This is no longer a theory, its been replicated by experiment after introducing every possible variable. Then the entire procedure and conclusions where reviewed by a different panel of scientists.... In other words, its accepted by the scientific and veterinary medicine community as fact.... Its just not accepted by you and others...

This below is what was in the post at question. Do you really think this is fact all the time or do you think its just in winter?

 

 

As a quick side note; try not to waste money buying high protein feed (soybean meal); It sounds like a great idea, but the deer won't use the protein.

They get their protein source by eating the dead bacteria and protozoans that wash out of the top compartments of their stomach into the rest of their digestive tract.

The microbes (bacteria and protozoans) get the first shot at everything you feed; so the protein would essentially be wasted (never get to the deer's main absorption mechanism

[phade]

To investigate whether urine may play a role in natural CWD transmission, and to confirm the presence of PrP^CWD in saliva, we pooled and concentrated urine or saliva from five terminally infected CWD+ deer and inoculated two groups of tg1536 mice. Following inoculation, mice were monitored for clinical signs of prion infection and were euthanized when terminal disease was apparent. Central nervous system tissues were evaluated for PrP^CWD using western blotting (WB), immunohistochemistry (IHC) and, when negative by conventional assays, protein misfolding cyclic amplification (PMCA).

In a group of 9 mice inoculated with lyophilized urine, 2 animals developed neurologic disease consistent with a TSE (Table 1), including ataxia, a slow, lumbering gait, and poor thrift, at 370 and 376 days post-inoculation (dpi). Eight out of 9 mice inoculated with prepared saliva likewise developed signs of TSE at 342+/−109 dpi. All mice in positive control groups, inoculated with CWD+ brain spiked into either urine or saliva, developed disease before 370 dpi (235+/−91 dpi), while none of the mice in either negative control group, inoculated with either urine or saliva spiked with negative brain homogenate, demonstrated clinical evidence of a TSE after >640 days.

 

Brains of all mice demonstrating terminal neurologic disease, including 2 of 9 inoculated with urine and 8 of 9 inoculated with saliva, had evidence of protease-resistant prion protein by both WB and IHC. PrP^CWD was absent by both WB and IHC in mice not displaying clinical disease, including those in negative control groups.

Edited February 18, 2014 by phade

[mike rossi]

You already got a publication record of the same guy you implied came to the same conclusions as you. I asked you to show me the study in his publication record which he said CWD is not transmitted from body fluids.

 

You cited the source and cant even show me the study - even after I draw up and post his publication record. You sir, have issues... Either that are your not a grown adult...

[mike rossi]

To investigate whether urine may play a role in natural CWD transmission, and to confirm the presence of PrP^CWD in saliva, we pooled and concentrated urine or saliva from five terminally infected CWD+ deer and inoculated two groups of tg1536 mice. Following inoculation, mice were monitored for clinical signs of prion infection and were euthanized when terminal disease was apparent. Central nervous system tissues were evaluated for PrP^CWD using western blotting (WB), immunohistochemistry (IHC) and, when negative by conventional assays, protein misfolding cyclic amplification (PMCA).

 

In a group of 9 mice inoculated with lyophilized urine, 2 animals developed neurologic disease consistent with a TSE (Table 1), including ataxia, a slow, lumbering gait, and poor thrift, at 370 and 376 days post-inoculation (dpi). Eight out of 9 mice inoculated with prepared saliva likewise developed signs of TSE at 342+/−109 dpi. All mice in positive control groups, inoculated with CWD+ brain spiked into either urine or saliva, developed disease before 370 dpi (235+/−91 dpi), while none of the mice in either negative control group, inoculated with either urine or saliva spiked with negative brain homogenate, demonstrated clinical evidence of a TSE after >640 days.

 

Brains of all mice demonstrating terminal neurologic disease, including 2 of 9 inoculated with urine and 8 of 9 inoculated with saliva, had evidence of protease-resistant prion protein by both WB and IHC. PrP^CWD was absent by both WB and IHC in mice not displaying clinical disease, including those in negative control groups.

 

 Bold, the mice exposed to urine & saliva from CWD positive deer became infected, the mice not exposed did not become infected.... I wasn't aware this disease can go from deer to mice....

Edited February 18, 2014 by mike rossi

[Four Season Whitetail's]

How is CWD transmitted?

Research has shown that CWD may be transmitted by various means.  The disease can be passed by direct contact among animals in a herd, and through contact with or ingestion of infected bodily fluids (saliva, blood, and urine) and feces.  Prions from decomposing infected carcasses and bodily waste may remain in certain soils for many years and cannot be eradicated easily by environmental factors, heat or disinfection, so transmission by environmental contamination also may be possible.  Thus, high deer population densities may create a favorable environment for disease transmission.

How is CWD diagnosed?

Brain samples and lymph nodes are collected from various sources of deer and are examined with a microscope using a special stain to identify the CWD prion.  These samples must be from freshly killed deer which makes time very critical.  Testing for CWD is conducted by federally-approved laboratories: there is no

quick test that you or your meat processor can perform to ensure that your animal does not have CWD         

 

Here is the words(In Bold) that guys like you like to live by. May..May be..May remain! fact is it has never been proven or it would not say may anything.

Why must they test a dead brain or lymph node to find a prion that,that same animal is pissing all over the forest?  Should just be able to grab a cup would'nt ya think??

 

Edited February 18, 2014 by Four Season Whitetails