QDM Meeting with Neighbors

[gjs4]

Excuses are easier than accountability....and QDM is hard work and costs money. There is nothing about NYS deer hunting that has had true understanding and management about it, The DEC does a poor job and now people are supposed to do a much better job on their own without that upbringing; tough sell for many. Many people do not see hunting as a privilege or a link to their own impact on the outdoors here...simply get a license and shoot some chit. Aldo Leupold would turn in his grave to view NY state's stance/approach to hunting. 

[Vince1]

Excuses are easier than accountability....and QDM is hard work and costs money. There is nothing about NYS deer hunting that has had true understanding and management about it, The DEC does a poor job and now people are supposed to do a much better job on their own without that upbringing; tough sell for many. Many people do not see hunting as a privilege or a link to their own impact on the outdoors here...simply get a license and shoot some chit. Aldo Leupold would turn in his grave to view NY state's stance/approach to hunting.

I dont think thats a fair statemebt. No ny hunter i have met from the city is about gettin a gun. Or bow and shooting somethin. Lotta guys work in the city and get out when they can. I met people who own land but just aint got the time. I was plannin on gettin some myself but like u said urself. If u aint born into it its tuff cause it aint ur lifestyle. Should i not get my licsence an enjy it cause a that.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Qdm is one thing but for alot of hunters its more about Tdm that really matters.  A few will say its all about a mature animal but for the most part many more will wake up every November morning wanting the biggest racked buck in the woods. Regardless of age!

[dbHunterNY]

Qdm is one thing but for alot of hunters its more about Tdm that really matters.  A few will say its all about a mature animal but for the most part many more will wake up every November morning wanting the biggest racked buck in the woods. Regardless of age!

 

In some ways I'm that way.  I mean I'm still waiting for that day I get a true buck of a lifetime.  different family members have gotten their "big" one.  I don't feel I have yet.  It'll happen but for now I just try to enjoy things.  I think you have to have the right state of mind to even want to do something like QDMA and follow through with it.  A while ago Dick's Sporting Goods had an outdoor tour.  This pro hunter from KS had mounts and sheds there.  He had this one particular shed off a symmetrical 6 pointer.  I noticed it because this one guy held it up and commented on how cool it'd be if he shot a buck that big.  I walked over and looked at it sitting on the table and the prohunter Mike told me how the buck was still alive, but locals were spot lighting it and hoped he'd get a shot at it first.  I was barely paying attention to him because all I could think about was how heavy that one shed was.  I mean it was massive, regardless of it just having three points!!!  to carry twice that on the bucks head, grow that in such a short amount of time, and considering everything else to the bucks credit one can't help but to have respect for the thing.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

In some ways I'm that way.  I mean I'm still waiting for that day I get a true buck of a lifetime.  different family members have gotten their "big" one.  I don't feel I have yet.  It'll happen but for now I just try to enjoy things.  I think you have to have the right state of mind to even want to do something like QDMA and follow through with it.  A while ago Dick's Sporting Goods had an outdoor tour.  This pro hunter from KS had mounts and sheds there.  He had this one particular shed off a symmetrical 6 pointer.  I noticed it because this one guy held it up and commented on how cool it'd be if he shot a buck that big.  I walked over and looked at it sitting on the table and the prohunter Mike told me how the buck was still alive, but locals were spot lighting it and hoped he'd get a shot at it first.  I was barely paying attention to him because all I could think about was how heavy that one shed was.  I mean it was massive, regardless of it just having three points!!!  to carry twice that on the bucks head, grow that in such a short amount of time, and considering everything else to the bucks credit one can't help but to have respect for the thing.

No Doubt.  I am in the same boat also.  I myself am after the biggest brute in the woods. Regardless of age!   I know many think qdm but are really practicing tdm. Either way, if you are out there improving the land and caring for the herd you are making a positive impact.

[phade]

In some ways I'm that way.  I mean I'm still waiting for that day I get a true buck of a lifetime.  different family members have gotten their "big" one.  I don't feel I have yet.  It'll happen but for now I just try to enjoy things.  I think you have to have the right state of mind to even want to do something like QDMA and follow through with it.  A while ago Dick's Sporting Goods had an outdoor tour.  This pro hunter from KS had mounts and sheds there.  He had this one particular shed off a symmetrical 6 pointer.  I noticed it because this one guy held it up and commented on how cool it'd be if he shot a buck that big.  I walked over and looked at it sitting on the table and the prohunter Mike told me how the buck was still alive, but locals were spot lighting it and hoped he'd get a shot at it first.  I was barely paying attention to him because all I could think about was how heavy that one shed was.  I mean it was massive, regardless of it just having three points!!!  to carry twice that on the bucks head, grow that in such a short amount of time, and considering everything else to the bucks credit one can't help but to have respect for the thing.

 

QDM or QDMA? Kind of confused on that.

 

It'd be interesting to see your mindset in a co-op. If antlers rule the day, you may have some challenges trying to implement a QDM co-op. You may want to move to south Texas where TDM is prevalent, lol.

 

Whether QDM or TDM, the lowest hole in the bucket for 99% of hunters is going to be their hunting skills. The problem is that many people believe that QDM or TDM will overcome that...so they plant plots, do TSI, and invest a lot of time and money into it, rather than trying to better understanding their hunting weaknesses, scouting skills, etc. Managing the hunter is just as important as the habitat.

 

The only case where I've seen skills not really be a factor is when someone has best in class ground within the area. Many of such hunters who hunt this are skilled, but just as many cannot hunt themselves out of a hole in the ground, yet take large bucks year in and year out. I've met a few over time and you can pinpoint them pretty quickly - it initially frustrated me, but you can't let that bother you. Let them be in their own world.

 

For the 99%, hunting skills rule the day.

 

Edited March 13, 2014 by phade

[WNYBuckHunter]

Excuses are easier than accountability....and QDM is hard work and costs money. There is nothing about NYS deer hunting that has had true understanding and management about it, The DEC does a poor job and now people are supposed to do a much better job on their own without that upbringing; tough sell for many. Many people do not see hunting as a privilege or a link to their own impact on the outdoors here...simply get a license and shoot some chit. Aldo Leupold would turn in his grave to view NY state's stance/approach to hunting. 

 

The DEC cant manage the deer herd to a QDM or TDM standard. They dont have the money, and never will. Educating people is the key to turning things around, and if you look at the trends in yearling buck take in NY, you can see it is turning around. Its slow, but we are getting there. We will never be like the midwest states, the hunter density is too high, and the land is too broken up. You and I live in some of the best areas of the state, due to mineral content in the soil, and the amount of AG in the area and other factors. We have the potential for nice deer, and it shows each and every year. The more people that are educated, the better it will get, and you have to admit, its pretty darn good already, especially in comparison to some other areas of the state.

[phade]

The DEC cant manage the deer herd to a QDM or TDM standard. They dont have the money, and never will. Educating people is the key to turning things around, and if you look at the trends in yearling buck take in NY, you can see it is turning around. Its slow, but we are getting there. We will never be like the midwest states, the hunter density is too high, and the land is too broken up. You and I live in some of the best areas of the state, due to mineral content in the soil, and the amount of AG in the area and other factors. We have the potential for nice deer, and it shows each and every year. The more people that are educated, the better it will get, and you have to admit, its pretty darn good already, especially in comparison to some other areas of the state.

 

GJS4 is talking about a better management bureau as a whole, including the management of the resource. None are perfect, per say, but certain bureaus are more adept at managing the herd.

 

He's familiar with Ohio and they are light years ahead of what the DEC is, even on their best day. There are good people in the DEC, but they are usually handcuffed in what they can do. Ohio is fluid - they make changes with reason and science and do so swiftly after considering the facts. They are willing to move and change seasons because its the right thing to do rather than talk about talking about it. They manipulate doe harvests based on numbers and do so openly.

 

Now, that's not to say Ohio is perfect, again, but their management of the deer, the natural resources, and the hunters, is light years ahead. Shoot a 185" illegally in Ohio and do the same in New York. I can safely say, you'll want to be in the New York courtroom rather than the Ohio one.

 

GJS4 doesn't have to worry about growing the big bucks because he already does that well. He is victim to slob hunters year in and year out and I feel for him. The DEC hasn't done much if anything to help out his situation and he's approached it correctly and was pretty much crapped on if I recall properly.

Edited March 13, 2014 by phade

[WNYBuckHunter]

Oh I know, I was just saying that the DEC cant manage things specifically, its up to the hunter and landowner. I know of some of GJS4's issues and struggles, and I think there are quite a few of us that deal with similar types of things. I know you do, and so do I. I would love to see the DEC do a better job with things, and get harsher on poachers. With the way this state wastes money, I just dont see it happening any time soon. The funding just isnt there to support the employees they need, equipment, proper research programs, etc etc.

 

The best we can do is educate at this point.

[Nomad]

We have our meeting of hunters and land owners

coming up as well. Few dozen folks ,scorers ,place rented , should be fun.

[dbHunterNY]

QDM or QDMA? Kind of confused on that.

 

It'd be interesting to see your mindset in a co-op. If antlers rule the day, you may have some challenges trying to implement a QDM co-op. You may want to move to south Texas where TDM is prevalent, lol.

 

Whether QDM or TDM, the lowest hole in the bucket for 99% of hunters is going to be their hunting skills. The problem is that many people believe that QDM or TDM will overcome that...so they plant plots, do TSI, and invest a lot of time and money into it, rather than trying to better understanding their hunting weaknesses, scouting skills, etc. Managing the hunter is just as important as the habitat.

 

The only case where I've seen skills not really be a factor is when someone has best in class ground within the area. Many of such hunters who hunt this are skilled, but just as many cannot hunt themselves out of a hole in the ground, yet take large bucks year in and year out. I've met a few over time and you can pinpoint them pretty quickly - it initially frustrated me, but you can't let that bother you. Let them be in their own world.

 

For the 99%, hunting skills rule the day.

 

 

well I suppose quality deer management too but more QDMA because we're talking an organization that you've made some kind of commitment to.  Don't take what I said the wrong way though.  Antlers don't rule the day in my world, but I'm not going to lie that I'd still chase them and appreciate a big rack. lol  Everybody likes a big rack, some just have it higher on their list of priorities.  Big set of antlers are so rare at around my parents house that any increase in antler size due to QDM would be more than enough to satisfy hunters in the area. trophy deer management isn't required or feasible given most hunters current knowledge.  many people that practice TDM I feel know their fare share about QDM, because some of it goes hand in hand.  The overall goals are different.  Do I have that right?

[dbHunterNY]

The DEC cant manage the deer herd to a QDM or TDM standard. They dont have the money, and never will. Educating people is the key to turning things around, and if you look at the trends in yearling buck take in NY, you can see it is turning around. Its slow, but we are getting there. We will never be like the midwest states, the hunter density is too high, and the land is too broken up. You and I live in some of the best areas of the state, due to mineral content in the soil, and the amount of AG in the area and other factors. We have the potential for nice deer, and it shows each and every year. The more people that are educated, the better it will get, and you have to admit, its pretty darn good already, especially in comparison to some other areas of the state.

 

I've hunted and lived in both western NY and eastern NY and I can confidently say western NY is better in this sense.  mineral content and mindset.

[WNYBuckHunter]

well I suppose quality deer management too but more QDMA because we're talking an organization that you've made some kind of commitment to.  Don't take what I said the wrong way though.  Antlers don't rule the day in my world, but I'm not going to lie that I'd still chase them and appreciate a big rack. lol  Everybody likes a big rack, some just have it higher on their list of priorities.  Big set of antlers are so rare at around my parents house that any increase in antler size due to QDM would be more than enough to satisfy hunters in the area. trophy deer management isn't required or feasible given most hunters current knowledge.  many people that practice TDM I feel know their fare share about QDM, because some of it goes hand in hand.  The overall goals are different.  Do I have that right?

 

Again, QDMA is a specific national organization. If you guys are looking to open a branch, there are requirements, etc. You cannot just start a "QDMA Co-Op", but you can start a "QDM Co-Op" anytime you want. Heres some info on QDMA branches.

 

http://www.qdma.com/corporate/start-a-branch

[phade]

well I suppose quality deer management too but more QDMA because we're talking an organization that you've made some kind of commitment to.  Don't take what I said the wrong way though.  Antlers don't rule the day in my world, but I'm not going to lie that I'd still chase them and appreciate a big rack. lol  Everybody likes a big rack, some just have it higher on their list of priorities.  Big set of antlers are so rare at around my parents house that any increase in antler size due to QDM would be more than enough to satisfy hunters in the area. trophy deer management isn't required or feasible given most hunters current knowledge.  many people that practice TDM I feel know their fare share about QDM, because some of it goes hand in hand.  The overall goals are different.  Do I have that right?

 

TDM and QDM are indeed different. There's a big difference in the roads to get there with TDM. You are talking about growing bone at the sake of all else.

 

http://www.qdma.com/articles/qdma-vs-trophy-and-traditional-deer-management-stratgies

[dbHunterNY]

Again, QDMA is a specific national organization. If you guys are looking to open a branch, there are requirements, etc. You cannot just start a "QDMA Co-Op", but you can start a "QDM Co-Op" anytime you want. Heres some info on QDMA branches.

 

http://www.qdma.com/corporate/start-a-branch

 

The meeting or get together hasn't happened yet so maybe I'm using the wrong terms.  This is what I think and a re-iteration of what I've already said:

 

There's an existing branch called the Upper Hudson Valley River QDMA branch that does cover this county and has already been in place.  We all would be just getting started in QDM and involved with QDMA, so I doubt the meeting is to start another branch.  I think it's to start a QDM co-op under the wings of the QDMA.  With QDMA members/the branch investing material and their time into us, I'd like to think we'd be actively involved in the branch and giving back a bit.  This in my mind would make it a QDMA based QDM co-op.  I typed QDMA Co-op for short.  Maybe that's the wrong terminology.  I feel like I've got to be at least getting some of it right.  Again the meeting hasn't even happened yet so who the heck knows the direction.  We'll see.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I gottcha, just trying to get you to use the correct terminology. Ive met of the guys in the UHVRQDMA at conferences, etc.

[dbHunterNY]

so I went to the meeting last night.  I thought it went very well.  it was basically just what I thought it'd be.... a special requested land owner meeting to possibly start a new QDM co-op.  Upper Hudson Valley QDMA members were there as well as those who've had their own co-ops in the area or neighboring county for a handful of years now.  QDMA Biologist Matt Ross was there and I thought did an awesome job, especially in comparing apples to apples with the situation that we in the immediate area faced.

many area farmer/land owners showed up and left with a good attitude.  some didn't and some left early but I'm keeping hopes up that they are still willing.  basically everybody said I'm willing to do it if everybody else does and nobody out right said I don't agree.  some weren't even hunters but just land owners.  there's no reason this shouldn't happen and get started.  we added up the acreage and it was well over 1,000 with most being contiguous which is recommended but isn't really a requirement.

I even got some verification that rules I've come up with for my parents house are the right direction and now I'm thinking others will take them a little more serious.  the co-op video that Matt showed with Kip basically said the first meeting wasn't to start one and instead be exposed to the idea.  within 2 months I'm thinking we will definitely have another and try to form a co-op.  I wasn't the one that started this despite I should've been but I will be one trying to keep the ball rolling down the court.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

how many owners are there to make up the 1,000 acres?

[dbHunterNY]

I think there was at least 9... but adding them all up would be at least double that. some others I know didn't attend but are already willing.  we'd have 1000+ contiguous acres by my parent's farm.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Contiguous ares would have to be the bigger part of success.  If not the people in the middle are going to love shooting the 2yr olds your letting walk. It will not hurt for sure but real tough to do without a big,big piece of land.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Contiguous ares would have to be the bigger part of success.  If not the people in the middle are going to love shooting the 2yr olds your letting walk. It will not hurt for sure but real tough to do without a big,big piece of land.

Depends on the goals of the co-op. If they were looking to take 2-1/2 year olds and better it might be more doable with that layout and acreage.

[dbHunterNY]

well we're capable of getting almost all deer to 2.5 yrs old now.  I believe with truly serious QDM management you're really looking to get deer to 3.5 and up.  it seems to me importance of a good age structure is definitely there with it being a key factor to successfully maintaining a healthy deer herd.

[phade]

Landowners agreeing on 3.5 and up is rare here in NY. If you can do it, then that's a big deal.

 

Problem is most hunters in NY don't have 3.5s and many don't have 2.5s on the wall. Might be best to think about setting 2.5 across the board for now and then move to 3.5 as people buy in a year or two down the road. Small steps = big victory.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Depends on the goals of the co-op. If they were looking to take 2-1/2 year olds and better it might be more doable with that layout and acreage.

I agree to a point but if the landowners that are in the middle of all these coming 2 years olds like to shoot any legal buck they see it will be a tough go of it. if the landowner in the middle has the better food and draw for the deer they will kill alot of those deer before they see their second birthday. Now if this land in all wrapped up in an AR area then there is a much better chance of success.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I agree to a point but if the landowners that are in the middle of all these coming 2 years olds like to shoot any legal buck they see it will be a tough go of it. if the landowner in the middle has the better food and draw for the deer they will kill alot of those deer before they see their second birthday. Now if this land in all wrapped up in an AR area then there is a much better chance of success.

 

How so? How often have you seen a 2 1/2 year old that didnt have 3 points on one side? Mandatory ARs are going to do little to nothing to help that type of a situation.