the tide is turning

[Doc]

Keep doing the same things and getting the same results ensures failure.

The two party system in NY and for the most part in the country has failed us.

Why? Because even when you win your losing.

 

Well, for one thing, it has been one hell of long time since the citizens have been serious about actually using the system. Most of the citizen response to government is to simply throw up their hands and talk about how Democracy doesn't work anymore. It's a lot easier that way than actually putting forth any effort and trying to use the system. When is the last time you actually worked for a political concept or issue? I don't know, but I will guess that like so many of those that want to trash Democracy, there's a good chance you don't even know who your state representatives are. I will also guess that you have never sent any messages to our legislators about any issue. I am guessing that you most likely do not belong to any gun or hunting advocacy groups or any political lobbying organization at all. These are very minimum things that you should know or do before giving up on the system. As I said, my assumptions are all guesses. I do not know that for a fact that any of them apply to you. But, I would say that the odds are really quite good that I am right on some or all of those guesses, because so many of the people who express the frustrations that you have, possess this disengaged, "opt-out" attitude and expect the system to run itself. Well, when the system runs itself, you lose all voice in how it will turn out. But really, is that a case of a failure of government or a failure of the constituents of that government?

[Mr VJP]

And once again, not one word of a plan or proposed action. Kind of makes all the rest of it to be merely irrelevant whining and whimpering. Not exactly useful. You would think that some one with the self professed ability of a prophet, would have all the answers on how to fix the problems. The intellect that could foresee the future that no one else was able to, seems to be reduced to running in circles, waving his arms in the air, and screaming, "Run for your lives, the sky is falling".....lol. That's not really much of a contribution toward problem solving is it? But he has plenty to say about those who really are trying to contribute. I'm sorry, I may sound a bit harsh, but I truly see those that would impede efforts at removing problem legislators to be as bad as those problem legislators themselves. Maybe even a bit worse because the anti-gunners are very clear and up-front regarding what they are trying to do and are not working within our own ranks to disrupt our efforts.

And once again, you have no ability to understand the message. Or perhaps you have no reading comprehension skills.

This is the PLAN! You will need to do EVERYTHING!! And you will need to do it FOREVER!!

There is no magic bullet to make it easier Doc! You will need to get involved in 2nd Amendment rights totally. It will have to be what drives your every thought, with every person you meet, for everyday of the rest of your life. You will need to vote, after you get totally informed, and get as many other folks to do the same EVERY election from now on. It will need to become your PURPOSE in life from now on.

The tide has turned all right, but it's AGAINST gun owners in NY. This will be a LONG war, and by the snide reply's you keep posting, I doubt you have the stamina to fight the long fight, or win it.

The sneak attack by the anti's was successful and now they have the high ground. It could've been avoided if NY gun owners had the strength and foresight to fight like hell years ago, but they didn't. And now you think they have a new found strength to overcome this scourge? I'm sorry, but I don't think that's the case.

I hate to say it, but I think this anger will devolve into frustration, defeat, acceptance and then apathy, the same as all prior attacks on gun owners in NY has done. My Constitutional rights are the most important thing in my life. I will not stand shoulder to shoulder with men who are not of the same mindset. I tried. Lord knows I tried. But there comes a point when you must accept the reality of the situation and become analytical about the problem, alternatives, and it's solution.

Like many Northeast states that have been apathetic about their 2nd Amendment rights, NY has moved past the point of no return, unless a major revolution takes place. If that ever comes to pass, maybe I'll return to help you guys out. But until then, I'm just not wasting my energy on a gun constituency like NY's.

Go ahead, prove me wrong, about any of it, and I'll be glad to eat crow and apologize. I'd love to see a major gun rights win in NY, but I'm not liking the odds here.

[Doc]

The tide has turned all right, but it's AGAINST gun owners in NY. This will be a LONG war, and by the snide reply's you keep posting, I doubt you have the stamina to fight the long fight, or win it.

 

Well, let me put it this way..... It isn't me that turning tail and running away from the responsibilities that you listed. So just who is it that lacks stamina? Well, we know one of us has already admitted a lack of fortitude and it isn't me.

[bubba]

Damn a piece of the sky just fell and hit me. I can name one time Americans stood up to tyranny and won.  So we do have an example to go by.  It was called the American revolution. 3 percent stood up and the rest reaped the benefits. They were told it would not work too.  So your pessimistic chicken little facade does nothing to deter me or anyone else who is committed to win this battle.  So keep up the good work (sarcasm)  When this is over and we send a lot of politicians packing, I bet you will be the first in line to take the credit.  I know that you are looking forward to being the hero.  

Edited May 26, 2014 by bubba

[bubba]

Where did I Even mention violence. I am simply for your benefit saying no matter how much you rain on the parade people will remain in this fight. If you do not believe this can be won with the ballot box I again have to ask how can it be won. Remember the four boxes. Soap ballot jury and cartridge. To answer your attempt to drag me into a look he wants to shoot everyone question. I will not throw the first punch but you can be damn sure I will throw the last. That simply means I will not start it but if they do I will not run from it either. How about you. I will wait until you consult the king for your response  You know what I find ironic?  Every day Papist you post some conspiracy theory in which the government is trying to ruinthe country.  But you do not have the balls to stand up against it.  

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Edited May 26, 2014 by bubba

[bubba]

For Papist and MR VJP 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2014 by bubba

[nyantler]

Doc, there is nothing honest about engaging in a failed system. It is the exact polar opposite of honest. It is, in fact, an acceptance of defeat.

 

I have every right to point out how folk are wasting their time. If you actually believed in the system you wouldn't be getting so riled. That much is obvious. Your retorts indicate a complete lack of faith that you can win this. I can see that clearly.

 

Same question I asked of Bubba:

 

Name 2 key areas where conservatism regained lost ground and turned back a socilaist program in the last 40 years?

if the system has failed then it falls directly on the back of defeatists like you that would rather give up than fight... and you continue to wave the white flag and give up what you believe in because you don't think you can win... think about how little sense that makes... it's kind of like standing in a deep hole with a shovel trying to dig your way up...

[Mr VJP]

For those of you too dense to get the point, I'm not giving up the fight, I'm just giving up on fighting with NY gun owners.  You guys just started to get involved, and what you think is fighting, is just protesting.  You should've been fighting years ago.  The folks leaving this God forsaken state, are the ones who are fed up with the rest of you.

 

You should be the ones to try and fix what you allowed to get fugged up anyway.  You made your bed folks......

[bubba]

Well dont let the door hit ya on the way out.  How are you fighting?  By telling everyone they are not as smart as you?  Good plan I never thought of that.  How is it working for ya?  In the words of bugs bunny What a maroon

[Doc]

For those of you too dense to get the point, I'm not giving up the fight, I'm just giving up on fighting with NY gun owners.  You guys just started to get involved, and what you think is fighting, is just protesting.  You should've been fighting years ago.  The folks leaving this God forsaken state, are the ones who are fed up with the rest of you.

 

You should be the ones to try and fix what you allowed to get fugged up anyway.  You made your bed folks......

Oh your point is crystal clear. Things get a bit tough and you turn tail and run. The problem is that your kind always run out of places to hide. That attitude makes it plain that when you leave, nothing of real importance will have been lost because you have never learned how to stand and fight anyway. So if you want to blame everyone else for the failures you see in NY, take a minute to look in the mirror and see where the failures really originate. Maybe that is the point you really ought to be examining.

[philoshop]

I was organizing voters when I was in high school in the 1970's. Young and dumb for sure, but I saw where things were going even then and I worked to change it. I will continue to work to change it because this state is my home. I understand your frustration. The effort may well turn out to be futile, but you're not helping in any positive way.

[Mr VJP]

Yeah Doc, you're the man.

 

 

 

Same old replies every post.  You two guys have no idea what your doing, or what it will take to get your gun rights back.  Via con Dios, amigos.

 

Everyone else working to turn NY around, I wish you the best of luck.  Look into the history of gun control in NJ, Conn, MD and Mass to get some insight into how the anti's fight.  Keep in mind they always make things worse and rarely lose ground.

 

Know your enemy.

 

 

[Trial153]

Same question to you that neither Bubba nor Doc can answer:

Name just 2 acts of conservative victory in terms of turning back or repealing unconstitutional socialist polices/law in the US. I will give you 50 years to search from rather than the 40 I offered to the other guys.

After you've spent a good while Googling a response and come up empty, ask yourself a searching and profound question regarding the efficacy of conservative politics in this country. Maybe the penny will drop.....probably not though.

Why look at it logically when they could spout the same Bravado over and over ...fighting the good political fight, putting out signs....

They forget the fact that the reason the Safe Act was able to shoved down our throats is because politicians like Cuomo knew that this state is made up of sizable population of people that agree with gun control or at best don't give a shit about it.

The demographics are against us in NY, and unless that is changed we are not going back no matter who you elect.

No matter how fundamentally wrong it seems to those of that value 2nd amendment rights as well as basic constitutional values, we have to face the fact that we are in the minority in NY and isn't changing anytime soon.

[bubba]

I see....So you made a pointless reference to an ancient act of war that has no bearing on the modern political paradigm.

Great, good, marvelous.... Carry on.

. So out of all I said you pull one sentence to continue to stir the pot. Did you know when an unjust law is forced upon the people it is our duty to stand up against it. Probably not since you seem to go along with it. I am done trying to make sense of your foolish posts. I will continue to march forward knocking on doors talking to people as well as all the other things I do. You can continue to post how the world is coming to an end an the sky us falling I still personally think you are a plant for the antis. Good luck. I look forward to ignoring your next conspiracy theory

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[Doc]

Yeah Doc, you're the man.

 

same old replies every post.  You two guys have no idea what your doing, or what it will take to get your gun rights back.  Via con Dios, amigos.

 

Everyone else working to turn NY around, I wish you the best of luck.  Look into the history of gun control in NJ, Conn, MD and Mass to get some insight into how the anti's fight.  Keep in mind they always make things worse and rarely lose ground.

 

Know your enemy.

I can see that they have you pretty well scared to death.... kind of to the point of paralysis. But don't feel bad. Not everyone is cut out for activism and find it a lot easier to run away from confrontation. I just don't want to see you taking a whole lot of potentially useful people with you with your defeatism.

[Doc]

Why look at it logically when they could spout the same Bravado over and over ...fighting the good political fight, putting out signs....

They forget the fact that the reason the Safe Act was able to shoved down our throats is because politicians like Cuomo knew that this state is made up of sizable population of people that agree with gun control or at best don't give a shit about it.

The demographics are against us in NY, and unless that is changed we are not going back no matter who you elect.

No matter how fundamentally wrong it seems to those of that value 2nd amendment rights as well as basic constitutional values, we have to face the fact that we are in the minority in NY and isn't changing anytime soon.

So, what are you proposing as a solution, or do you subscribe to the philosophy of your other two cohorts, "when in doubt, run away from confrontation". Have the liberals forced you into retreat also, giving up all hope and simply opting out from any responsible reaction. You too have accepted irrelevance? Yes, many New Yorkers have. We even have some that are satisfied with letting the liberals run them out of the state. They probably won't be missed much because they are of little political value anyway. 

 

Yes you have a point about us being in the minority but if you take a look around, you will find that most victories are actually accomplished by minorities. Generally speaking, minorities seem to fight a little harder and are a bit more dedicated, focused, and single-minded to their causes than the apathetic majorities. Of course we are finding a few exceptions to that rule here where we have a few that are more prone to run away. But I still believe that we have a core of dedicated people who can remain focused on trying to actually do something about problems. At least those that stand and fight will have had the satisfaction that they did what was right. Just like other things in life, no guarantees come with the effort, but there is one guarantee that says that if you cower in the corner and opt out of the system, there definitely will be no change. That much IS guaranteed.

[bubba]

The fact you keep refusing to answer what your as solution is it really takes away from your credibility. You spew this will not work that will not work but you refuse to say what will work. I reference the revolutionary war as it is a pretty good example of how people stood up to a government that was oppressing them. Every day you post some reference of how the government is oppressing us. But you continue to say there is nothing we can do about it or we are doing the wrong thing. I am sure the patriots back then heard all this from the nay sayers too. You are entitled to your opinion but it is two sided you say that you are all about being against the government but you say there is nothing we can do about it. If you read my whole post where I responded about violence. I said I am not advocating violence but if they come for me I am not going to our there and take it. The patriots from the revolution are great peopkevto draw inspiration from. You might want to try it

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[Doc]

The very fact that you repeat this question ( while ignoring others) indicates that you feel there are no other solutions.

Would that be a fair assessment?

Oh no. There is always more than one solution. They don't always make any sense, but there's always options. The reason I keep asking that question is because usually, pointing out problems is only half of any situation. Generally it has absolutely no value to whine about situations that disturb us without at least some idea of a course of action. So naturally when I find people that find democracy to be an unviable government choice, the first question that pops into my mind is what do you have that is better and how do you intend to implement it? For you and VJP the solution seems to be to run away. It's not a very elegant solution, but perhaps the best you can come up with ... I don't know. So naturally when you picked up Trial153, who also is quick with the criticisms, the same question was first to come to mind. That's why I asked it.

 

Once in a while I will encounter a problem that I have no clue how to solve. Generally that means that I have resolved that I can live with the condition as it exists, or that it doesn't warrant the time or effort to construct a way to proceed. I am having a hard time believing that anyone would consider issues of government as being so unimportant that time should not be spent at least considering solutions. Is running away a viable solution? ..... probably not for most people, but I guess it is ok with some people. Just simply pride usually keeps us from accepting that as a solution. I personally reject that direction, simply because I refuse to let liberals dictate my life and force me out of my home state. Others may not be so sensitive to that. It's an individual thing I guess.

 

Other people such as Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh had a little more violent idea of solutions. Others like the Taliban have their vision of what sort of government they would like to force on the U.S. Basically, there are all kinds of solutions around. asking which one someone who is unhappy with our system favors is not really an unusual question, and gives one an idea of just how much actual thought has gone into issues that seem to bother them so deeply.

[bubba]

I do much more than put signs in yards I meet with people I lead a group of over 600 who are out continuously to educate and motivate and get people to the Polks in November. I sm the most level headed person you will ever meet. So go back to your hideout wear your tinfoil hat and wait for the next conspiracy

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[bubba]

Then stop trying to stop those who are willing to fight. Negativity is not the answer.

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[bubba]

I am sure even you must see the concerns in the way you keep trying to bring down the entire movement.  You are no doubt convincing some who are on the fence not to bother to get in the fight as it is a waste of time.  You are exactly what Coumo wants to help him get reelected.  Good job.

[nyantler]

Same question to you that neither Bubba nor Doc can answer:

 

Name just 2 acts of conservative victory in terms of turning back or repealing unconstitutional socialist polices/law in the US. I will give you 50 years to search from rather than the 40 I offered to the other guys.

 

 

 

After you've spent a good while Googling a response and come up empty, ask yourself a searching and profound question regarding the efficacy of conservative politics in this country. Maybe the penny will drop.....probably not though.

Who the hell has been talking about conservative politics... we're talking about guys that not only have given up on fighting this fight but give up every time the going gets a little tough... the fact that we still can carry a gun anywhere in this country is proof alone that we have been successful fighting off a 50 year onslaught by progressives trying into get rid of the 2nd amendment... there is your answer... I have never mentioned anything about conservative "politics"... politics is politics... I don't fight to convince politicians, I fight to keep the people informed... every time a person backs away because they're sick of politics they play into the plan of anti-gun hardliners that are hoping that's exactly what you'll do... maybe that's why it's hard to gain any ground... guys like you think it's about politics...

[Doc]

Exactly. It is the first half of the solution. We can't move on to the second half however until people recognize and accept that the problems are real. This is where we are stuck at the moment it seems. There is a blind spot I have been trying to overcome but with little success. No point in talking about solutions until we agree on the problems.

But surely you must see how credibility dissolves when all you do is sit in the corner, sucking your thumb, and whining about how all is lost. Frankly that sort of nonsense gets very old, very quickly. Someone crying about their condition that has absolutely no vision as to how to get out of it really only succeeds in appearing pathetic and really quite irrelevant. At some point, you really have to move past problem statement and move onto problem solutions, or nothing you have to say means anything at all.

 

Your approach focuses on discouraging those who are inspired to actually work on solutions as you try to recruit more whiners to sit in the corner and do nothing. Who the hell needs that ......other than Cuomo and friends. We don't need any more whiners, we need doers. If you can't do anything positive then at least get the hell out of the way of those that will and stop trying to convince others to join your pathetic troop of quitters.

[Doewhacker]

Here is a good new story that shows the grass roots effort is working and with politics involved, imagine that.

 

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/S3452553.shtml?cat=300

[Trial153]

Here is a good new story that shows the grass roots effort is working and with politics involved, imagine that.

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/S3452553.shtml?cat=300

Really? You must mean the same tired talking points from politicians.

The same politicians that were in office as our liberties keep getting pushed back year after year. We keep electing the same hacks only switching the D's for R's and we keep getting the same results.