Why Do I Need a License to take my grand kids hunting

[jrm]

skimmed this thread, so I'm not sure if this was part of your question or has been answered, and I guess it's a question of my own. I don't think you need a license if you're not carrying a firearm, similar to being in a boat with others fishing and you not having a pole. Your grandson would, but that's part of teaching him the "right thing to do". But lets be honest, we were all 6 years old shooting birds in the woods with our bb guns were we not?

 

If the licensed person is 16 or older, the accompanying party doesn't need a license as long at they do not assist in the hunt (including driving deer). 

 

Thanks for bringing this up. It is not entirely clear from this thread that the licensing requirement for an accompanist only applies to junior hunters (12-15). 

 

 

Ok so as I said the 22 bucks is no biggie. I offered to pay it. My other question is how does one qualify for the mentor license you are pushing for. Do you have to list the people you plan to mentor. I can see people lying to get a free license. Just saying. Pay the 22 bucks go out with your grandson who knows you may decide to hunt again

 

 

If I send you the list of mentors will you pay the $22 for all of them? When it is about the principle, who pays the money doesn't make a difference. Again, no one complained about affording the $22 - which is simply another money grab by the state. The OP actually noted he buys the license - the only question is to the reasoning behind it. I stand behind my original answer - it is a revenue stream the state will not give up.

 

Qualification is a non-issue. What are the qualifications now? All you have to do is have a hunting license which means you took the safety course. I have been to a safety course where quite a bit of wrong - and even lethally wrong - information was provided. People who took that information at face value would likely kill or hurt the person they are mentoring. You would take the same course with a "free" mentor license system, so you would be equally as safe/dangerous as the person who paid for a license.

 

There will always be people who lie. There are surely people who already hunt without a license. That is no reason to penalize the honest people.

[bubba]

What principle do you speak of. It seems simple to me. You want to mentor or accompany a youth who by law needs a licensed hunter with him what principles are there please enlighten me

[jrm]

What principle do you speak of. It seems simple to me. You want to mentor or accompany a youth who by law needs a licensed hunter with him what principles are there please enlighten me

 

 

Whether you do it intentionally or not, it seems I have a real problem making myself understood to you.

 

I surrender.

 

I guess there is no principle involved with handing money over to the state just because they want it. Feel free to keep giving and never asking "why?". Feel free to write Albany and complain about proposed decreases in license fees. More is better, right? If the government says it is right, it must be right.

Edited July 18, 2014 by jrm

[bubba]

If you feel that way why do you buy a license at all yourself.

[jrm]

If you feel that way why do you buy a license at all yourself.

 

Seriously? What does that have to do with anything?

 

Although I already surrendered...

 

I buy a license for the same reason the OP does - because it's the law. 

 

I also wear a seatbelt. I stop at a stop sign in the middle of nowhere with no cars/people around.

 

I do many things which make no practical sense because it is the law.

 

That doesn't mean I agree with every law/rule. That doesn't mean I am willing to speak out when I think a law/rule should be changed. I was taught to question the government - they don't always do things right. Nor do they always do things for the right reasons.

 

 

 

Are you happy with every single law, regulation and rule that exists? Have you never questioned a single rule/law that has been implemented. Or do you just follow the rules you agree with?

 

 

One place we will agree... this thread has gone on too long and should have been closed down a while ago. All it accomplished was potentially running off a new forum participant. 

[bubba]

I still want to know what principles are violated no I do jot like every rule or law. But I work to change them not gripe about them

[VT Outfitter]

Well said Bubba and Mr VJP. I understood both of your explanations. Perhaps involving the next generation would be a better choice and go afield as a group of three hunting buddies, with the younger generations being legally licensed and carrying firearms. My point is that passing on the torch is a great accomplishment for the very experienced outdoorsman. The passing of the hunting knowledge down through the generations is what keeps the traditions alive. As an experienced  outdoorsman with a great passion for hunting and fishing, passing the torch doesn't mean you have to quit the game, but your position changes to a different role.

[jrm]

I still want to know what principles are violated no I do jot like every rule or law. But I work to change them not gripe about them

 

 

Principle being violated:  Not hunting but being forced to purchase a license with deer tag. After 15 years old, the "mentor" doesn't need a license. At 15 he does. Aside from a required corse, neither party needs to be qualified at anything nor needs to be an experienced hunter.   There is no real "safety" goal being achieved by the licensing process. It is a valid point to question. Some may agree with this setup, some may not. I see it as arbitrary, you do not. 

 

I already pointed out some avenues for affecting a change in the rules. This forum is not a direct line to the DEC or legislative process, so I guess your point is that any question or comment posted here is a "gripe." When trying to change something, asking others about it, finding out if others support your position or rallying others to your cause is all complaining? I don't agree, but that's one way to look at it.

 

The OP mistakenly assumed that this forum would be a good place to get information about a rule for which he didn't understand the reasoning. He thought that folks more experienced with the rule making process could provide some insight or justification. Instead, he got bashed for it. Seems par for the course around here.

 

"Why" is not a dirty word - especially when it is applied to the government.

 

 

Fortunately for me, I am stopping work early today. That means I do not have to sit in front of my computer any longer to be tempted by email alerts for this thread.

 

I really, really surrender this time. You win.

[bubba]

Look up the definition of hunting in the reg book and you will see how silly your post is. Also look up the reasons for mentoring and again you will look silly. Just saying. The op got out are you his representative now

[jrm]

You don't want me to get out the door today with an empty email inbox.

 

How is my post silly? I think the rules are silly.

 

If I am in the field supervising an experienced, safe, licensed 15 year old, I am "hunting" and need a license.

 

If I am in the field with a licensed 16 year old who knows nothing about hunting or guns, then I am not hunting and don't need a license.

 

Sorry if I don't "see the light" on that one.

 

"Mentoring" is also not properly used in the context of this discussion (or the DEC). All it means according to the rules is "adult supervision." It allows a completely unqualified individual to "mentor" a kid. No training, No qualification. Pay $22 and you too can be a "mentor." At least have the honesty to call it "babysitter" rather than throw around a false title like "mentor."

 

Edited to correct: A "mentor" needs "3 years hunting experience" according to DEC. SO actually it is $66 to be a mentor. Again, no real experience or knowledge is needed. You just have to purchase a hunting license for at least 3 years.

 

 

 

That is why we don't see eye to eye. I think the above rules do not make sense and have much room for improvement. You think the above rules make sense and that your position somehow makes me look "silly." I can live with that.

 

I do not represent anyone. The OP question was answered a while back. This is now just you and I disagreeing. We are not going to change each other's position, no less the rules, so its nothing more than an amusing way to fill time between answering client emails.

Edited July 18, 2014 by jrm

[virgil]

JRM, you are confusing the situation.  It is the junior hunter who needs to have a licensed hunter with him.  If the mentor were supervising a fully licensed hunter, the mentor would not need his license so long as he is not assisting in the taking of game.

[Doc]

Lol.... I am sitting here wondering how the DEC should at least attempt to ensure that a junior hunter is being accompanied, supervised, or mentored short of holding face to face interviews with the attending adult (not exactly practical. So what is practical? Well, if you are qualified to be licensed, at least they know that you have been exposed to the hunter training safety course. Let's face it, that is the only way that they can at least put the odds in favor of the mentor knowing safe from unsafe. And I am aware that hunter safety training didn't necessarily take with all hunters. I didn't say that it is an iron-clad guarantee. I think they forced to play the odds on that one simply because there are no guarantees.

 

And of course the other half of the story is that the DEC definitions do not specify requiring a weapon to be hunting or participating in hunting. They have words in there that include "disturbing, harrying, worrying whether they result in taking or not, and every attempt to take and every act of assistance to any other person in taking or attempting to take wildlife."

 

Whether we like it or not, those are the words that are written in Environmental Conservation law, and the DEC and we are bound by that law. We may not like the law, but that's not a requirement.

[G-Man]

then using their definition birders and wildlife photographers should need a licence as well.. i've seen birders chase them for miles to get a pic. There i hope the state charges them for a hunting licence...non hunters watching and photographing bird being forced to buy a hunting licence...that would make my year.....

Edited July 18, 2014 by G-Man

[jrm]

JRM, you are confusing the situation.  It is the junior hunter who needs to have a licensed hunter with him.  If the mentor were supervising a fully licensed hunter, the mentor would not need his license so long as he is not assisting in the taking of game.

 

We are talking about the same thing - junior hunters. From 12-15 you are a junior and need a "mentor." At 16 you are an "adult" and don't. Where I was off is that that for 12-13, the "mentor" is required to have purchased 3 years of hunting licences, where form 14-15 the "mentor" only needs the one prior hunting license.

 

 

 

Lol.... I am sitting here wondering how the DEC should at least attempt to ensure that a junior hunter is being accompanied, supervised, or mentored short of holding face to face interviews with the attending adult (not exactly practical. So what is practical? Well, if you are qualified to be licensed, at least they know that you have been exposed to the hunter training safety course. Let's face it, that is the only way that they can at least put the odds in favor of the mentor knowing safe from unsafe. And I am aware that hunter safety training didn't necessarily take with all hunters. I didn't say that it is an iron-clad guarantee. I think they forced to play the odds on that one simply because there are no guarantees.

 

And of course the other half of the story is that the DEC definitions do not specify requiring a weapon to be hunting or participating in hunting. They have words in there that include "disturbing, harrying, worrying whether they result in taking or not, and every attempt to take and every act of assistance to any other person in taking or attempting to take wildlife."

 

Whether we like it or not, those are the words that are written in Environmental Conservation law, and the DEC and we are bound by that law. We may not like the law, but that's not a requirement.

 

Yes, the hunter safety course is probably better than nothing. My experience definitely jaded me on that course. Some information I have seen given could get someone killed other information could get people arrested. I can only conclude that the course system is broken. I was very disappointed and a little worried at what they "taught."

 

Let's say the course is a "good" one and that getting a license is how to prove you took it. Fine. There is still room to have a "Free" non-hunting license issued. That idea was raised earlier and makes sense. 

 

 

then using their definition birders and wildlife photographers should need a licence as well.. i've seen birders chase them for miles to get a pic. There i hope the state charges them for a hunting licence...non hunters watching and photographing bird being forced to buy a hunting licence...that would make my year.....

 

Exactly. Doc's mention of the hunting rules implies a certain interpretation. From what I can see, the DEC interprets them with a little more common sense.

 

From the DEC website - first question in their own FAQ section:

 

****

Q: Can I take my young child (or an unlicensed person) with me while I am deer hunting?

A: Yes, and we highly recommend it! Just make sure the child (or unlicensed person) is not hunting or assisting in any aspect of the hunt (like driving deer). Bring an extra pair of binoculars and plenty of snacks. Have a good time!

****

 

They make it clear that an unlicensed, non-hunting person can accompany a hunter. They even "highly" recommend it! Of course they cannot hunt and yes, that means more that simply having a bow/gun. They, however, are actually encouraged to bring snacks and binoculars. So if they are looking through those binoculars and see a deer, is it illegal to tell the hunter about it?  Spotting prey would be "assisting" the hunter, yet it seems the activity is actually encouraged by the DEC.

 

A strict reading of "any act of assistance" could mean holding that DEC suggested bag of snacks so the hunter can draw his bow. Of course, this is not the case.

 

I can see a benefit in wanting a responsible adult to supervise a 12-15 year old while hunting. I simply disagree that forcing the adult to pay for 1-3 years of hunting licenses does anything more than generate money for the state. If "safety" is the reason and the word "mentor" is being used, a real qualification process should be in place. As it stands now, it is simply a money grab.

 

 

 

 

-- fat fingers and autocorrect do not work well together.

Edited July 19, 2014 by jrm

[jjb4900]

I think taking a young child or non hunter along on one of your hunts so they can watch and learn is a lot different then accompanying someone who has never hunted or killed an animal and you're there to instruct and teach.....there may be a chance you will actively have to assist in some situations, if it were me, I'd splurge and spend the $22.00.

[Mr VJP]

So, if I'm out in the woods looking for deer and deer sign, putting up trail cams, stands and reflecting dots, but not carrying a firearm, I have to have my license on me because according to the DEC that's hunting.

 

If I'm doing it before the season opens I guess I'm hunting out of season too.

 

Seems the law is being very broad in it's interpretation of hunting.  What's the purpose?

 

[Doc]

We all can slant, spin, or interpret the law however we want to, but the only interpretation that counts is what the encon officer and/or the judge or J.P. establishes. So if you want to push the envelope, do so at your own risk. I will say that there are darn few laws, of any sort that are absolutely bullet-proof and not subject to some level of interpretation. But it seems to me that there are really very few ways that one can interpret a definition of hunting that includes words like: "...and every attempt to take and every act of assistance to any other person in taking or attempting to take wildlife."

 

And for those that want to come up with some sort of special "qualification process", I have to point out that all these "special processes" require some sort of trained personnel to administer them. Of course we already know from the hunter training courses that trying to come up with these people is a lot easier said than done, so I think there might be some logistical problems with throwing in special courses or procedures for every wrinkle in the law. I think using a licensed status is as good qualification process or status as you are likely to find.

[jjb4900]

it would probably cost you $22.00 to take your grandkids to the movies and buy popcorn and soda, so why would you even consider complaining about that dollar amount to take them hunting? spend the small amount and you won't have to worry about anything.

[Youngre911]

Thank you too everyone for your replies. You and I can agree that we all have our points of view. I appreciated every comment from all views, so thank you.

Myself, I believe there really could be just a simple license I buy that I can go out as a mentor. I'm very poor at typing the point I'm trying too explain so please bear with me for my closing comments.

1) I can become an instructor to teach the hunter safety course and teach a whole room full of junior hunters every aspect of hunting, identifying game, safety, rules, etc... We can handle firearms or bows... Etc etc etc..... I need at least 3 years experience and some paperwork... But, I do not need a current license or tag.

2) If I am big game hunting with my grandson and my "buck" tag I have already filled. It's ok for me to still go out and be a mentor for him because I have a big game license. So, why can't I just buy a mentoring license without buying a tag?

3) If my grandson buys a deer management permit... (Doe tag) do I need too buy a doe tag too..?

4) I was asking about the concept of a mentor license. I buy my grandsons big game license so now it's $44, plus $10 for the doe tag. An oh yea, he wants to get into archery. We both need a bow hunting license. Small game... Yes the law requires us both to hold a current license. Heck,,,,he wants turkey tags too. I need turkey tags too. We might go duck hunting. He does not need a $15 duck stamp but I do.

I was just pointing out. I am not going to carry a firearm or bow and just out watching my grandson learn new things. I do not "hunt" anymore and don't eat the meat anymore.

Anyway, thank you everyone for your feedback. Everyone has a voice here.

[jrm]

Thank you too everyone for your replies. You and I can agree that we all have our points of view. I appreciated every comment from all views, so thank you.

Myself, I believe there really could be just a simple license I buy that I can go out as a mentor. I'm very poor at typing the point I'm trying too explain so please bear with me for my closing comments.

1) I can become an instructor to teach the hunter safety course and teach a whole room full of junior hunters every aspect of hunting, identifying game, safety, rules, etc... We can handle firearms or bows... Etc etc etc..... I need at least 3 years experience and some paperwork... But, I do not need a current license or tag.

2) If I am big game hunting with my grandson and my "buck" tag I have already filled. It's ok for me to still go out and be a mentor for him because I have a big game license. So, why can't I just buy a mentoring license without buying a tag?

3) If my grandson buys a deer management permit... (Doe tag) do I need too buy a doe tag too..?

4) I was asking about the concept of a mentor license. I buy my grandsons big game license so now it's $44, plus $10 for the doe tag. An oh yea, he wants to get into archery. We both need a bow hunting license. Small game... Yes the law requires us both to hold a current license. Heck,,,,he wants turkey tags too. I need turkey tags too. We might go duck hunting. He does not need a $15 duck stamp but I do.

I was just pointing out. I am not going to carry a firearm or bow and just out watching my grandson learn new things. I do not "hunt" anymore and don't eat the meat anymore.

Anyway, thank you everyone for your feedback. Everyone has a voice here.

 

"2) So, why can't I just buy a mentoring license without buying a tag?"

 

Because they don't sell it that way.

 

 

"3) If my grandson buys a deer management permit... (Doe tag) do I need too buy a doe tag too..?" 

 

I would guess not. All the rules say is that you need a license. You would only need the tag if you are taking a doe.

"4) I was asking about the concept of a mentor license. I buy my grandsons big game license so now it's $44, plus $10 for the doe tag. An oh yea, he wants to get into archery. We both need a bow hunting license. Small game... Yes the law requires us both to hold a current license. Heck,,,,he wants turkey tags too. I need turkey tags too. We might go duck hunting. He does not need a $15 duck stamp but I do."

 

Here's where you have me confused.  

 

You mentioned your grandson is 14. So his hunting license is only $5. Bowhunting is another $4, so that's a total of $9 - not $44. Also, the DMP is free for ages 12-15.

 

Your license would cost $22 for the base big-game license. (Or $5, with free bowhunting if you are over 70)

 

You only need a bowhunting privilege to hunt in the "special" bowhunting season. If you are in rifle season, you can hunt with a bow using the "regular" hunting license. You still need a bowhunter safety class certificate - you just don't need to buy the extra "privilege." This is for ages 14 and up, so it applies to your grandson too.

 

 

 

So his license, including a DMP would only be $9 if you plan on taking him hunting during bow season and only $5 if only hunting during rifle season.

 

​Your license would be $37 with bow included and $22 if not including bow privilege.

 

Total cost for BOTH of you would be between $27 and $46, depending on if you are hunting during special bow season or not. That includes the (free) DMP for your grandson.

 

Fees are listed here:   http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/95007.html

 

 

On the turkey permit and duck stamp... I wonder.  It is an interesting question.

 

You would already have the hunting license and are not "hunting" (in the sense that you are not attempting to harvest anything). If the license is actually a "tag" I would think it is not needed. (Not needed for the "mentor" but still needed for the actual "hunter.")  If the license is something which provides the permission to hunt that species, I would guess it is needed. This is my guess and maybe someone else has more direct experience with this issue. The best place to get a real answer on this is probably the DEC field office in the area you hunt (get the name of who you speak with). They are the one who will enforce things in your area, so their interpretation is what counts. 

 

 

​edited to add: Seems you would both need the Turkey permit. DEC has a reference on the site which states "To hunt turkey, all hunters must purchase a turkey permit. There are no exceptions." 

Edited July 21, 2014 by jrm

[Youngre911]

Oops... Yes JRM your right about the prices... I was again really just talking about the concept and not really looking at the actual cost. It's the "I need a tag or license" to mentor for any of these.

The point where I am helping my grandson drive deer and my tag was already filled. I mean, at this point the only thing my big game tag is to allow me too peruse big game and accompany my grandson. Basically mentoring without a tag.

We can go fishing and I can show him all my hot spots and best lures....as long as I don't touch his pole, do I need a fishing license?

Again... I was just thinking if I could get a mentoring permit without buying all these tags. I'm not going to shoot anything or eat it..lol

I admit I don't read my text from all views before posting. Thanks for setting the record straight. I do appreciate it.

[jrm]

Oops... Yes JRM your right about the prices... I was again really just talking about the concept and not really looking at the actual cost. It's the "I need a tag or license" to mentor for any of these.

The point where I am helping my grandson drive deer and my tag was already filled. I mean, at this point the only thing my big game tag is to allow me too peruse big game and accompany my grandson. Basically mentoring without a tag.

We can go fishing and I can show him all my hot spots and best lures....as long as I don't touch his pole, do I need a fishing license?

Again... I was just thinking if I could get a mentoring permit without buying all these tags. I'm not going to shoot anything or eat it..lol

I admit I don't read my text from all views before posting. Thanks for setting the record straight. I do appreciate it.

 

Except for the DMP, the tag comes with the license. So if you need the license, you get the tag whether you plan to use it or not.

 

In the case where your deer tag is filled, you are correct. The license then only allows you to assist in a hunt (including driving) but you may not harvest deer. In practical terms, this means you do not want to have a gun or bow with you.

 

Fishing - not my thing. My understanding has always been that you need a license for every "pole in the water." So if you are with your grandson and there is only one fishing pole you would need only one fishing license. The DEC licensing page states: "Required to catch/harvest freshwater fish species during the regulated freshwater fishing seasons." It would seem that the definition of fishing is different than that of hunting. I could be wrong - again, fishing is not my thing. 

 

 

edited to add: Look at the DEC fess page. Fishing license fees apply to ages 16+. There is no mention of a license fee for a 14 year old. It is possible that is free. If so, I would imagine you would need a license to accompany him while fishing. If not, that would be a big loophole for people avoiding license fees.

Edited July 21, 2014 by jrm

[Youngre911]

I do buy any license, tag or permit I need. Just to go with him and watch. The laws in place require that I have them. No, I'm not planning on breaking the law. My point was more that there seems to be something missing in the current law. That as a mentor only, there could be some sort that if I am not "catching the fish" or "shooting the turkey" or trying to take a deer.... I'm only there to offer advice. Maybe I'll get bloody helping him field dress his first deer. The tags I bought will go out with the trash.

Thanks again...

[virgil]

I think it's a fair point.  If you are qualified to buy a license, but only want to act as a mentor to a junior hunter who is required to be accompanied by a licensed hunter, you should be able to obtain a mentor's license without having to purchase a tag if you don't want to actually hunt.

[bubba]

It all boils down to the act of hunting as defined and his age.  Maybe the laws are not perfect, but it is what we have.