Gas drilling (fracting) and your hunting property

[First-light]

So it's a hot topic, I haven't seen it talked about here, maybe an older post before I joined. How do you guys feel about this?

I want to know is the hunting part of it, encroaching on your property, right-of-ways, drilling sites and storage.

We are so passionate about our hunting privileges will they be compromised?

Are you willing to lease to the gas companies and let them use your property to drill on? How about state land, how do you feel about that?

I'm in the Southern Tier so it's a hot topic, Catskills should also be in the same situation.

[Doc]

I really don't understand the actual effects of "fracking". Wouldn't you think that if there was a real danger to the process, opponents would be laying out reports of damage that was done by that kind of gas drilling. It is a practice that's been used elsewhere right? I see the opposition as being based on theory and emotion instead of science. That's not to say that they aren't right. I am only saying that they have not proven their case. Maybe I missed it. I don't have a lot of background on the subject. I'm kind of glad you brought it up. maybe somebody has some info on it that would be useful in forming an opinion.

Doc

[SteveMcD]

No I am opposed to it. I will not allow contamination of my ground, water or that of my neighbor and community. I need to leave this behind for my children and grand children. 

Hyfro-fracturing spills all that contaminated water and chemicals into the aquaifer and on top of your ground too.

[NYDeer]

What little I've read/know of it, it seems like a bad idea..

The problems seem to arise from the waste water used to create the fracture, that eventually comes back to the surface.. If you've read/heard anything about the Pebble Mine issue in Alaska, this is the same issue. The contaminated water, contains heavy metals and other elements.. If it gets released somehow from the containment area, it will create an environmental nightmare..

[jasons75]

I'm far from an expert on the subject. I can only base my opinion on the documentaries and pubs that I have seen.

IMO The practice should be outlawed! Its too destructive to the environment. The amount of Toxic waste it generates isn't worth it. People that sell/ lease their land to these companies are money blinded fools...

[Lawdwaz]

somebody plunks $1,000,000. down in front of you to lease your 340 acres, promises you royalties, your in you 60's and have busted your nuts on the farm for 50 years and don't have much to show for it.

tell me you wouldn't take it........................

sorry for the lack of caps, my sweet wife is asleep under my left arm!

[Doc]

When you talk about massive permanent environmental damage, usually if there is solid documentation, you don't even have to worry about having an opinion. Such threats that are backed up by science are generally legally squashed right away these days by the government. Lets face it, when it comes to new introduced harmful environmental issues legislators do not usually sit along the sidelines on such things. So what is it that we are not hearing about this issue? Where is the other side of this issue?

[First-light]

Thanks for the replies guys. Doc your right fracting has been going on in other states. The gas co pumps down into the ground a toxic mixture at high pressure that fracts the shale but the mixture has to be removed. Most problems happen when the mixture is spilled at surface level. My question is would you be willing to give up you peaceful little 100 acre hunting camp and have a 4acre well pad installed with holding tanks for gas and waste water, 24/7 generator that you can hear while in the woods and the change to your small town that comes when big Co's come in to drill for gas? LADWAZ has a great point, so you take the deal, it would be hard to pass up.

What would be the cost? I don't think most people are going to hang around after getting that much cash? Maybe it won't effect us that much (hunting)  drilling only goes on for 6-8 months,

sure they could be drilling during hunting season but that would be only one season. I often wonder about this subject while in the woods sitting on my stand. Would I let them drill, at what cost and how will it change my life here in a place I can't put a price tag on (or can I) ??? ??? ??? ?

[HectorBuckBuster]

Well they have been drilling and fracking in Northern Seneca County for 30-40 years.There are wells all over the place up there.Just drive on some of those back roads and looks at builds, tractors, and everything else these farmers have from getting gas.  There is one person that says that there well was affected by the drilling. I wonder how many people every had there wells tested every year before the drilling every begin. Probley never. There is always 2 sides to every story, and then the real story. We as a nation need to get off the depending on other countries for our Energy. We have enough Natural Gas in NY alone for 10-20 years alteast. Why not convert our cars over to natural gas, or make them run on both gas and natural gas. Natural gas burns alot cleaner.

[jasons75]

A mil would be hard to pass up.. but I dont think the drilling company is going to offer that.  honestly, any amount would be especially hard to pass up to those that are on hard times.. Most of us would do anything to make the bill collectors stop calling.

There was a movie called GasLand that I seen on this recently about the problems that fracking causes..  the sites and scenes that they showed (even clean sites) were disturbing.

here is a news article that I just bumped into  http://www.postindependent.com/article/20101209/VALLEYNEWS/101209884/1083&ParentProfile=1074

[HectorBuckBuster]

That movie gasland is pretty much one sided. And yes the $1,000,000 can be a real offer. Al you need is 200 aces and a sign up bonus of $5000 a acre. If you look in Tex and that way, they gas companies are happy to pay $5000 here, as down there is run $20,000 to $30,000 a acre. I passed on the gas company a few years ago as their $100 acre offer was a joke. Sorry $18,000 offer not interested.I have really been reading up on this, as it will be a huge thing either for the good or bad to me. You will be talking alot on money at some point and time. They will drill just when. This wind fall for farmers has been great as it has helped them keep their land. Remember folks the more farm land that gets sold off to be developed the less hunting land there will be.

[Lawdwaz]

A mil would be hard to pass up.. but I dont think the drilling company is going to offer that.  honestly, any amount would be especially hard to pass up to those that are on hard times.. Most of us would do anything to make the bill collectors stop calling.

There was a movie called GasLand that I seen on this recently about the problems that fracking causes..  the sites and scenes that they showed (even clean sites) were disturbing.

here is a news article that I just bumped into  http://www.postindependent.com/article/20101209/VALLEYNEWS/101209884/1083&ParentProfile=1074

My "imaginary"  story above is not imaginary.  It is true, it is the story of a farmer who's land I have hunted for 24 years in Tioga County PA.  It is happening all over that area.  I know $3200 an acre has been done and maybe going as high as $5000/acre.

I could run those numbers easy in my head............................

All that plus the royalties after production starts which could be a couple years down the road after the lines are in to transport the gas.  I've seen the well sites and roads they put in, they spare nothing.

Take a ride through the Wellsboro area, the streets are paved in gold!!

[Fantail]

Money talks, people will take these offers.

I don't know alot about the hydrofracking process. But I bet people affected by what's going on sure do. I would say it doesn't make for happy neighbors. I started seeing lawn signs with the "No Frack" symbol, and started to wonder about it. At the time, I was following that new Battlestar Galactica series, with the hot chicks with guns in space, frack thing going on. And I was thinking, what the frack?

[First-light]

Fracking has not been going on for years, drilling yes but fracking no. The only huge lease offers to date exceedeing $3,000 bucks per acre are down in the Catskill region. This is the core area of the Marcellus shale. Out lying areas like the southern tier are getting a couple hundred per acre.

[CNYScott]

I can be of some help here.  FULL DISCLOSURE: My firm represents ANGA (America's Natural Gas Alliance).  I'm a conservationist, dedicated outdoorsman who hunts, fishes and camps a lot.  I'm also a very involved Boy Scout leader.  Before we took ANGA on as a client I did a lot of independent research including speaking to independent hydrogeologists, engineers and the President of SUNY ESF.  I've been on rig tours in PA and researched news accounts of alleged contamination extensively.  I'm comfortable in our choice to represent ANGA and have confidence in the technology.

First, hydrofracing has been in use in the U.S. for 60 years.  It's track record over time has been excellent.  In NY there are already over 13,000 straight line and/or low volume hydrofraced wells.  There has been one surface spill that was reclaimed since 1971.  DEC has done an excellent job in its regulatory oversight.

What is currently at stake in NY is an expansion of the volume of fracing fluid that is authorized for use, and permission to horizontally frac multiple drill lines from a single well head.  This reduces the surface footprint substantially.  The horizontal fraced veins of gas are between 5,000 and 8,000 below the surface.  The average NY well is less than 300 feet.  Their waters sources are separated by 1000's of feet of impermeable bedrock and the water sources do not mix.  The dSGEIS document currently being reviewed by DEC is not an "if" document - drilling in NY already exists.  It is a "how" and "how much" policy document

The Marcellus Shale area, primarily the Southern Tier into the Catskills, is the second largest natural gas field in the world.  It is a gold mine, and could on its own power the nation from the Mississippi River to the Atlantic coast for a minimum of 50 years.  Many landowners, farmers, hunting clubs, businesses and local governments would make a substantial amount of money if this moves forward.

With regards to the fracing fluid - it is proprietary to the drilling companies (they are business competitors, after all), but nearly all have voluntarily agreed to disclose their "recipe" to regulators, and we expect DEC to require that.  It is over 99% water and sand; the rest is common materials also found in cosmetics, food, and pharmaceuticals.  The fracing fluid is necessary to release and channel the natural gas for extraction through minimal invasive fractures in the shale.

With regards to contamination - there have been surface spills that can be and are cleaned-up.  There has not been a casing leak in a drill shaft, ever, in NY.  There are no cases that I am aware of a modern drill casing leaking.  Again, DEC will require the most stringent standards, and the industry expects them to. 

I'm a lifelong NY'er with three kids.  I don't want to see our water contaminated, and I don't believe for an instant that they will be.

With regards to methane, benzine, etc.  These are naturally occurring chemicals in nature.  I was at a landowners meeting in Norwich with about 600 people earlier this year.  Nearly 10% could light their well water on fire due to methane content.  There are NO hydrofraced drills on those properties.  The sensationalism without scientific proof of "Gasland" has pulled at heartstrings but its claims don't past objective muster. 

In fact, some companies have found that in pre-testing before drilling, as many as 40% of landowners in some areas of PA find methane in their drinking water.  Companies haven't always pre-tested, so the "conclusion" in the past is that drilling caused the methane.  Now the companies do pre-test.  They won't drill on property with methane present because the trial lawyers will line-up to sue.  This naturally occurring phenomenon is now denying landowners lucrative leases for fear of frivolous lawsuits. 

The same goes for claims of radiation.  Everything has some degree of radiation.  Many have screamed about radiation of rock material drawn up when a drill is tapped.  That may in fact occur and is tested and dealt with.  Rock drawn up in wells in NY historically have less radiation than a cheeseburger from McDonald's. 

Water - It is a water intensive process, but it is a literal drop in the bucket for NY's water sources.  Natural Gas drilling is being done in Texas and Wyoming where you drive for hundreds of miles without seeing water.  I've spoken to many hydrogeologists and this is an unfounded concern to those who know best.

Waste Water - It can and will be treated at waste water facilities just like other industrial waste, sewage, pharmaceutical waste water, etc.  The industry pays for it and it is yet another financial benefit to local governments.

With regards to "Gasland".  This is a Michale Moore-esqe hit job that makes for great theater and alarm, but it's very short on actual facts or science based proof.  I encourage you to extend your research past Hollywood sensationalism. 

Last, the process:  The actual drilling process takes 6-8 weeks during which many trucks and water tanks will be on site.  After that, a small single wellhead is left on about a 1/4 acre with a minimal industrial humming noise intrusion.  The land is reclaimed and replanted to original or better condition.  Roads are often completely rebuilt to company specifications for their occasional trucks - usually far exceeding local government standards. 

Will it interrupt hunting?  Generally no, and you may wish to address this in your lease if NY allows this to move forward.  After the drilling is done and the wellhead is established I would consider the interruption to be nil.

Bottom line, this is the only industry that is readty to go - right now - and doesn't want a tax break, Empire Zone, PILOT agreement or anything else.  The industry has asked DEC to dramatically increase the permit application fee to ensure proper funding for regulatory staffing.  State officials response so far: "We can't dedicate funds".  This, of course, is false.  The state legislature would love the revenue but wants first crack at it's use. 

This is an emotional issue for many.  I firmly believe that much of the emotion is due to false and misleading information by environmentalists that are not our friends on drilling any more than they are on hunting.  The opposition is extremely well funded out of NYC and have done their job well.  They are a tough foe.  Their alarm can be sounded in 10 seconds (Don't ruin our water!).  My explanation just took 20 minutes to type.  I have an obligation to be correct based on facts.  My opponents have no such limitation.

Finally, please visit this website that my company manages.  It can help shed some more light on information regarding natural gas drilling:  http://www.friendsofnaturalgasny.com/

I hoped this has helped.  There will be those that disagree.  If you want to continue the discussion all I ask is that you come armed with facts. 

Happy hunting for the rest of the season.

[First-light]

Good information for all to see, I don't think Fracking has been going on in N.Y. for 30 years?? Your description is perfect if all goes well, just think if your that unlucky person that has a problem. Do yourself a favor and get a good gas lease lawyer before you sign anything, it will be worth it. I'm not an expert

and you can find more information on http://www.pagaslease.com/ it is a great forum to learn about Gas drilling in N.Y. and PA. Again I started this post

to try tpo find out what hunters thought about gas companies using hunting properties to drill on and how it might change things.

[Doewhacker]

"It is over 99% water and sand; the rest is common materials also found in cosmetics, food, and pharmaceuticals."

Its that 1% that is the problem, 1% of millions of gallons is alot eh? 1% can and has contaminated water in other states. What exactly is in that 1%?

Seeing that oil companies are involved should make people wonder, look at the oil leak from last year in Louisiana and how quick the finger pointing started there after the S... hit the fan. I have zero faith in a man that is getting paid to tell me something is ok when he is getting paid by the companies that are out to make a profit at any cost. Lobby some one else, I ain't a politician armcomm.

[CNYScott]

I'm not lobbying you, and I fully disclosed my professional involvement up front.  What else would you have me do?  I tried to contribute to the conversation with my knowledge and as a hunter who is a native NY'er.  Decide for yourself.

As I stated the industry is willing to disclose all materials to regulators and expects the DEC will demand that.  The DEC sets the standards, the industry will comply.  The materials will mostly be recovered, some will be absorbed below 5,000 feet.

You're more at risk from fertilizer run-off and winter road salt than anything used in fracing fluid. 

One man's informed opinion.  You're free to decide, and the idea of a forum is to hear from other people. 

[Doewhacker]

"As I stated the industry is willing to disclose all materials to regulators and expects the DEC will demand that.  The DEC sets the standards, the industry will comply.  The materials will mostly be recovered, some will be absorbed below 5,000 feet"

Right so why don't we tell every one what is in that 1%? Go ahead you are the expert. And for the record, I don't want run off from fertilizer in my drinking water either. You offered info based on the fact that your firm represents ANGA, not the fact that you are a hunter.

[HHC1]

Armcomm.....I have done quite a bit of research myself over the last 2 years, and I enjoyed reading your take on the fracking issue. Thank you for contributing the information.

[CNYScott]

HHC1 - Thanks. 

doewhacker - I did mention my outdoor involvement, including hunting.  I also indicated that the formula is proprietary.  The natural gas companies have platoons of environmental scientists that develop these fluids to 1) successfully frac and 2) be safe while doing so.  These companies compete with each other and to publicly disclose that information is not a viable business practice.

The disclosure is to regulators who set safety boundaries.  The general public will not be afforded that information, any more than you know the proprietary ingredients of any medicine you take.  The FDA sure does - and deems it safe or rejects it. 

I don't like run-off either, but frankly a certain amount measured in parts per million (PPM) is deemed acceptable.  My point was that there are many things that are more dangerous (but acceptable) that you experience daily than alleged exposure to fracing fluid 5,000+ feet below bedrock. 

With regards to the impact on hunting, I think it will be minimal, especially after the 6-8 weeks of actual drilling is completed.  The greatest impact may be the financial ability to hold onto leased property, farmland, family land, etc., when the economy is very tough and isn't improving.  Hunt clubs and not-for-profits (Scout and YMCA camps, for example) are looking at leasing in NY as a way to establish financial stability at a time when charitable donations are down significantly. 

I joined this forum because I am a hunter and avid outdoorsman.  This topic was posted and I have unique knowledge of it, so I've offered it.  Individuals are free to choose to believe me or not.

[First-light]

It's up to you as an individual, sportsman and hunter to protect the environment. Too many articles out there about the good and bad on gas drilling. A good example was the article a few issues ago in NY Outdoor news, it painted such a rosy picture of the perfect drilling site with no problems. At no point in the article did they visit a town that had problems. Do you home work before leasing, fracking fluid is toxic and the gas companies don't want you to know what's in it. Accidents are a small percentage to the amount of wells that have been drilled but when they happen disaster strikes.

Sorry but the same can be said about the gulf and look what happened, that I'm sure is not over with. I'm not pro or con, still much to be learned.......

[flny77]

    I am with doewhacker. Land is  important, money is important, but water is a bit more important –kinda like  air, and the shinny ball of fire in the sky.  I watched that movie mentioned above “gas land”. Money and greed are an  impressive team in the game of destruction. I wish the taxes in NY were under control,  the government was back on track, and the state of the economy was healthy. The  natural gas tycoons will take advantage of Upstaters and other landowners in  hotspots throughout the US in this economic depression. I remember those wind  turbines and wind farms –man, that was a cluster of sorts. What a waste. I saw  one of those windtamers up close and personal –wow. Now that is intelligent.

[Doewhacker]

There are alot of unanswered questions on this and I certainly don't think the rosy picture painted can be trusted. All of this for a resource that will be gone in 50 years...then what do we do? How about the same companies that are reaping Billions in profits each quarter give a little money back to the consumer and figure out a solution to the oil issue, nah..lets just create another way to rape the earth instead and grab a few billion in the process.

[First-light]

An article on the con side of drilling and one in the middle,

http://www.yesmagazine.org/planet/the-fight-against-fracking

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/will-new-york-rebel-against-fracking/