Gas drilling (fracting) and your hunting property

[CNYScott]

Bill, it actually does not impact groundwater.  The casing technology and depth ensure that those water sources don't meet.  They are thousands of feet apart, separated by impermeable bedrock. 

In the very rare case of a surface leak from a tank, truck, etc., those are reclaimed per all regulatory guidelines.  DEC has noted just one such case since 1971 for the over 13,000 drills operating in NY. 

Other claims of contamination have been shown to be pre-existing.  In fact, some citizens from the infamous Dimock, PA, contacted us yesterday.  They are sick of their community being portrayed as a cess pool caused by the gas industry.  According to one gentleman with an environmental engineering background, he bought his Dimock home in 1999 knowing that his well contained high levels of methane and iron.  It has always been dark and flammable. 

Despite no proof of any contamination of any well (lawsuits are ongoing) the energy company in question has refurbished all wells for the asking, does regular testing and installs at their cost filtration systems in individual homes -- these are for people with no gas leases and a history of well water contamination prior to drilling one inch!  They are trying to give people piece of mind and be good corporate citizens.  Most residents are tired of a handful of neighbors searching for jackpot justice by making unsubstantiated claims. 

A woman who owns an inn in northern PA said she's gone from 9 year-round employees to 32, all do to the presence of drilling in the area. 

These are not isolated successes.  I've done my homework, and presented the case as I know it.  I can't produce evidence of what-ifs, maybes and could be's.  People are either convinced by facts or they choose to believe the worst, facts be damned. 

I'm a realist.  Facts matter to me.  As I stated at the beginning of this long string, I investigated this industry with respected independent third-party sources BEFORE I agreed to represent them.  I've shared my findings with my fellow forum members.  If I've failed to make my case, we'll agree to disagree. 

[CNYScott]

doewhacker - thanks for posting those links.  Here is the relevant summary, which is largely inconclusive, says frac lines are "maybe" a contributing factor, but listed many other potential factors as well (These cases are from wells drilled in the 1980's and 1990's).

There is a new, updated study underway by the EPA and the NYS DEC.  Bottom line - this industry improves its technology, procedures and safety record every month.  There is a safe way to conduct large volume hydrolic fracing. 

In this chapter, EPA has presented information (in addition to technical, conceptual, or theoretical information presented previously) on personal experiences with regard to coalbed methane activities and their potential (or perceived potential) to impact drinking water wells. These personal accounts of potential incidences in four producing coal basins across the United States do not present scientific findings. However, the body of reported problems considered collectively suggest that water quality (and quantity) problems might be associated with some of the production activities common to coalbed methane extraction. These activities include surface discharge of fracturing and production fluids, aquifer/formation dewatering, water withdrawal from production wells, methane migration through conduits created by drilling and fracturing practices, or any combination of these. Other potential sources of drinking water problems include various aspects of resource development, naturally occurring conditions, population growth and historical practices.In several of the coalbed methane investigation areas, local agencies concluded that hydraulic fracturing could not affect drinking water wells. Generally, these conclusions were based on there being a significant horizontal and/or vertical distance between the coalbed methane production wells and the drinking water wells.

[Doewhacker]

Found these pictures just by googling..

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I believe of the drinking water wells in question, few were tested prior to the post drilling tests so the contamination may have been there previously....from what I have read in some articles

[Doewhacker]

Why is the EPA just getting started on the research..man the spead of govt. is blinding.

Bottom line is this for me...there are alot of unanswered questions that have been posed and given the track record of companies that are involved (Haliburton) and the money grabbing screw em all way that they operate I have little faith that these large companies have our best interest at heart.

[CNYScott]

Drilling is an industrial site, no question.  Splashing past a basin would be a surface spill that would need to be reclaimed.  Technology exists now that reuses water and I think the basin methodology will not be used/allowed in NY - not sure, but that's what I've heard. 

The scar picture looks like a drill site in which drilling is complete, equipment removed, but is prior to reclamation.  The end result will be as I posted previously. 

Culvercreek - that was the case.  I'm quite certain all companies now do baseline testing if for no other reason to avoid frivolous lawsuits. 

[Doewhacker]

Armcomm, is there anything on the books stipulating where the companies will draw the water from that the use in the process? I have read that alot of it comes from local sources such as streams or lakes.

[CNYScott]

doewhacker - I'd agree with you on the speed.  "Moving at the speed of government" is a phrase I use frequently, and it's not a compliment.

I'd respectfully disagree that there are a large amount of unanswered questions.  The answers are ofter very technical, and many don't really want the answers (I don't mean you, by the way).

Finally, absolutely disagree with the "Screw 'em" business attitude.  My extensive personal experience with these companies has shown them to be very engaged, very concerned with local image and business practices, and very technically competent.  I have not witnessed nor experienced anything that would lead me to believe that they are purposefully out to cut corners or damage the environment.  In fact, many industry folks are locally hired.  I find it very difficult to believe that they would poison their own community to feed their corporate masters.  Just haven't seen a shred of evidence of that.

[Doewhacker]

Really even Haliburton? They are the only ones that had to be issued a subpoena to get the "recipie" of the 1%. Maybe you don't deal with them?

[CNYScott]

doewhacker - on the issue of water pull it is the case that much of it comes locally.  This is one of the major issues the DEC's SGEIS will address.  In speaking with several hydrogeologists with extensive knowledge of the NY water table the amount is not a concern - we have plenty.  How and when it is extracted does matter, and the DEC will establish guidelines for it. 

I'm an avid fisherman as well as hunter, so this is of big concern to me too.  Rather than throw our hands up in frustration, a lot of people are working the problem to come up with viable public policy to address these concerns.  I'm confident they will.

[CNYScott]

Haliburton is not an ANGA member company.  Willingness will be a moot point in NY.  We fully expect disclosure to DEC of the fluid recipe to be a mandatory disclosure to be issued a permit in NY.  No recipe - no permit - no drilling. 

ANGA is comfortable with that policy.  Indeed, most already disclose despite claims to the contrary (as recently as in Buffalo, NY yesterday).

[Doewhacker]

Do the gas companies plan on paying the DEC to fund all of these studies and the new employees that will no doubt be needed to watch over all of the drill sites?

[CNYScott]

The industry has begged for an increase in permit application fees - currently $300, INDUSTRY has asked for an increase to $4,000 - $5,000 per, simply to ensure proper funding for DEC regulatory staff.  They are clearly understaffed. 

The suggestion has been rebuffed thus far citing a legal inability to direct funds - in reality what that means is that the state would love the revenue but wants to spend it as they see fit. 

DEC has been fine, it's the elected officials who are falling short.  I know that comes as a shock to NY residents...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Do the gas companies plan on paying the DEC to fund all of these studies and the new employees that will no doubt be needed to watch over all of the drill sites?

I would love to see this cost built into the permit fees.

[First-light]

Get yourself a good, no, great lawyer before you sign anything. They (gas co) will take advantage of you any way they can, you have to protect yourself and your land. You want to learn about gas drilling, don't look at N.Y., don't look at PA., look at Texas. Do a search for gas drilling in Texas and find out for yourself.

[flny77]

When someone is trying to sell me on something -is when I usually know  somethings up. I am a landowner, I'm all for capitalism, the republican way, 2nd  amendment, pumping some money into upstate, and the preservation of the American way.  Messing with drinking water and wells never turns out right. Messing  with Mother Nature never turns out right.

I think a lot of things are being over looked, that cheeks are being turned, and money talks, or shuts right up.

[CNYScott]

I couldn't imagine not having a good lawyer on board if I was involved in any contract - especially over use of my own land.

Guys - it's been fun.  I have to make some money this afternoon before I hit the woods this weekend for a doe in 7M.  Feel free to post/question/rant - my responses won't likely be immediate for the next few days. 

[Doc]

Haliburton is not an ANGA member company.  Willingness will be a moot point in NY.  We fully expect disclosure to DEC of the fluid recipe to be a mandatory disclosure to be issued a permit in NY.  No recipe - no permit - no drilling. 

ANGA is comfortable with that policy.  Indeed, most already disclose despite claims to the contrary (as recently as in Buffalo, NY yesterday).

Disclosing the recipe is one thing, but will there be provisions for visits to random sites to make surprise inspections and fluid tests to guarantee that the recipes supplied are what is actually being used?

[wztirem]

Plain and simple, "those bastards cannot be trusted"!

[First-light]

Right now NY has only 16 inspectors.

[Doc]

Right now NY has only 16 inspectors.

That's why surprise inspections and testing would be required. It's kind of like that old no-tresspassing sign: "This property is protected by a pack of vicious dogs three days a week ...... You guess which days."

Make the fines something that gets their attention, and just the threat of a surprise test would keep them honest.

[erussell]

I live about 15 min south of Binghamton on the PA border and am use to my peace and quiet. I got to listen to all the drilling going on over the border all summer. Its like an annoying hum that doesn't go away,it almost sounds like someone baleing hay in the distance. And whats up with all the Helocopters slinging things to the site, they cant use trucks? It would be alot quieter. The noise pollution is worse than the water pollution.

[mjac]

Check out this article from the current drilling going on in PA

http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article182669.ece

[Doewhacker]

The Gov. put a moratorium on this method of drilling until July because he wants the DEC to learn more about it first, like a few months will give them time to study up on it. :

[CNYScott]

On Paterson:

The veto was good based on the bad overreach in the bill.  Shame on the legislators and activists that wanted it to be signed regardless.  It would have put 300 businesses under and 5,000 people out of work on current vertical small volume hydrofraced drills.

On the Buffalo article:

There seems to be a lot of lawyers making contamination claims, less so from scientists.  From the above mentioned article:

In fact, Chesapeake tested residential water wells within 2,500 feet  of its gas well pad sites before drilling began -- and found that about a  third already were tainted with methane.

"My perception is there  have been few demonstrative direct impacts from Marcellus drilling,"  said Michael A. Arthur, a professor of geosciences and co-director of  Pennsylvania State University's Marcellus Center for Outreach and  Research. "It's pre-existing contamination. It's not Marcellus."

On Hunting:

 

  I took a nice doe Sunday to add to the freezer, next to my 8-pt buck.  Buddy got a doe as well.  Good hunting this year in 7M.