Headspace Mysteries!

[philoshop]

Size the case to the headspace you want, then trim the mouth of the case to the overall case length you want. Install the primer you want and the powder you want in the amount that you want. Seat the bullet to where you want it in relation to the rifling of the barrel. And lastly: Hope that you can shoot as well as you want.

Numerous steps have been left out here, obviously.

 

I know exactly what I want in a handload, whether its for hunting or BR, (many years ago). When someone suggests an easier or better way for me to get what I want I'm all ears. If it doesn't work for me I'm still happy to have it in my head(space) for future reference.

Thanks for article Lawdwaz.

[jjb4900]

ok, I'm totally clueless about headspace and reloading to adjust for headspace issues....but, I have an older sportarized 98 Mauser that still has the original 8mm Barrel on it that I stopped using because I was told it may have headspace issues, this was based on the condition of the brass after it was shot...........anyone???

[philoshop]

My Mauser experience is limited to one gun that was custom built around the action from a 98, so I don't have any insight here.

May I ask who told you there might be headspace issues?

[jjb4900]

My Mauser experience is limited to one gun that was custom built around the action from a 98, so I don't have any insight here.

May I ask who told you there might be headspace issues?

it's been awhile, but I believe it was a gunshop I brought it to when I noticed fine brass "dust" building up around the inside of the chamber and the brass looking a little out of shape after shooting.....never really looked any further into it after that as it wasn't one of my primary hunting rifles...they offered to have it sent out to have the headspace checked.

Edited January 7, 2015 by jjb4900

[Lawdwaz]

ok, I'm totally clueless about headspace and reloading to adjust for headspace issues....but, I have an older sportarized 98 Mauser that still has the original 8mm Barrel on it that I stopped using because I was told it may have headspace issues, this was based on the condition of the brass after it was shot...........anyone???

 

What was the issue with the fired brass?

[wildcat junkie]

ok, I'm totally clueless about headspace and reloading to adjust for headspace issues....but, I have an older sportarized 98 Mauser that still has the original 8mm Barrel on it that I stopped using because I was told it may have headspace issues, this was based on the condition of the brass after it was shot...........anyone???

 

 

My Mauser experience is limited to one gun that was custom built around the action from a 98, so I don't have any insight here.

May I ask who told you there might be headspace issues?

Mausers are no different than any bolt action (that utilizes "rimless" cartridges) when it comes to headspace. The distance from the bolt face and the shoulder determines headspace.  W/"rimmed" or "belted" cartridges, the rim or belt is the headpace locator. One can also resize these types of fired cases so the shoulder (if present) will headspace.

 

Inspecting the fired case could give some indications of excess headspace. A severely flattened primer W/factory loads would indicate that the primer was pushed out of the case head @ the intial ignition pressure W/the case then slamming back against the bolt face causing the primer to be flattened into the radius around the pocket.

 

The only way to check accurately is to use headspace gauges. I have 8X57 "GO" & "NO GO" headspace gauges. It takes less than a minute to check.

 

Where are you located jjb4900?

[philoshop]

it's been awhile, but I believe it was a gunshop I brought it to when I noticed fine brass "dust" building up around the inside of the chamber and the brass looking a little out of shape after shooting.....never really looked any further into it after that as it wasn't one of my primary hunting rifles...they offered to have it sent out to have the headspace checked.

 

It could be more about the ammo than the gun...? Was it old military stuff by any chance?

[thphm]

Have no idea Lawdwaz the head space is set up when the rifle is built or a new bbl. is set up on the rifle. Sounds as if some people just like to BS.

[wildcat junkie]

it's been awhile, but I believe it was a gunshop I brought it to when I noticed fine brass "dust" building up around the inside of the chamber and the brass looking a little out of shape after shooting.....never really looked any further into it after that as it wasn't one of my primary hunting rifles...they offered to have it sent out to have the headspace checked.

That might indicate a long throat and/or small spec cases and/or anemic low pressure U S A loads that aren't swelling the brass quickly enough to prevent some of the gases escaping around the bullet/neck in a long troat escaping into the chamber. Probably a combination of these factors.

 

Is the "dust" evident on the entire case body back to the head?

Edited January 7, 2015 by wildcat junkie

[jjb4900]

Have no idea Lawdwaz the head space is set up when the rifle is built or a new bbl. is set up on the rifle. Sounds as if some people just like to BS.

yes, I just made it up for conversation sake...thanks for your useless input.

[jjb4900]

Mausers are no different than any bolt action (that utilizes "rimless" cartridges) when it comes to headspace. The distance from the bolt face and the shoulder determines headspace.  W/"rimmed" or "belted" cartridges, the rim or belt is the headpace locator. One can also resize these types of fired cases so the shoulder (if present) will headspace.

 

Inspecting the fired case could give some indications of excess headspace. A severely flattened primer W/factory loads would indicate that the primer was pushed out of the case head @ the intial ignition pressure W/the case then slamming back against the bolt face causing the primer to be flattened into the radius around the pocket.

 

The only way to check accurately is to use headspace gauges. I have 8X57 "GO" & "NO GO" headspace gauges. It takes less than a minute to check.

 

Where are you located jjb4900?

I'm very far away from you, L.I......I only brought this up because I saw a chance to get an answer as to what I was told was possible or not, and this is what I was told could be the issue, who knows if the guy even knew what he was talking about.....If I remember correctly I was just using Remington factory ammo..no primer issues, only a real fine brass looking dust around the the back of the chamber where the brass sits when fully seated and the neck of the case would look out of shape....I'm 100% sure this is the original military barrel that was never messed with, haven't shot it in many years, but saw the chance for some possible answers so figured I'd ask.

Edited January 7, 2015 by jjb4900

[philoshop]

Duly noted Wildcat, and you're absolutely correct here. I was more concerned about the possibility that an older war rifle was brought back in pieces and somehow ended up with a bolt that was out of spec for the receiver/barrel combination. A go/nogo will tell you if the chamber is too short but it won't necessarily tell you if the bolt face is too far from the breech.

[wildcat junkie]

I'm very far away from you, L.I......I only brought this up because I saw a chance to get an answer as to what I was told was possible or not, and this is what I was told could be the issue, who knows if the guy even knew what he was talking about.....If I remember correctly I was just using Remington factory ammo..no primer issues, only a real fine brass looking dust around the the neck of the chamber where the brass sits when fully seated and the neck of the case would look out of shape....I'm 100% sure this is the original military barrel that was never messed with, haven't shot it in many years, but saw the chance for some possible answers so figured I'd ask.

By "out of shape", what do you mean?  If it was bulged or belled, it could indicate severe throat errosion. That isn't a headspace issue or particularly dangeraous but it would result in dismal accuracy.

 

Remington or Winchester 8X57 ammo is pretty bad stuff as far as power & spec anyway. Hard to make an accurate accessment.

[jjb4900]

By "out of shape", what do you mean?  If it was bulged or belled, it could indicate severe throat errosion. That isn't a headspace issue or particularly dangeraous but it would result in dismal accuracy.

 

Remington or Winchester 8X57 ammo is pretty bad stuff as far as power & spec anyway. Hard to make an accurate accessment.

was just a little out of round where the opening of the neck is......and what appeared to be the brass / metallic dust, I'm not a reloader or gun fanatic so maybe my findings and the info that I got was not of any real concern? but, for you guys who are, is this a real possibility of something that could happen?

[wildcat junkie]

Checking for an erroded throat would require a chamber cast W/"Cerrosafe". Not a monumental task, but a bit more involved that closing the bolt on a gauge.

[philoshop]

Could be a number of things, not the least of which might be that it was a factory reject that made it to the battlefield and hence became the property of a GI looking for a souvenir.

Do you want to shoot it again?

[jjb4900]

I know there must be many issues that could cause what I'm talking about.....but for you guys with the knowledge, is it unreasonable to suggest a gun with the original barrel could have issues with the headspacing that could possibly create the problems I mentioned? if so, I'd rather find a good gunsmith and have it checked out to avoid any potentially damaging or dangerous situations.

[philoshop]

A headspace issue in this case probably wouldn't be caused by the barrel/receiver, but it certainly could be caused by a bolt that was manufactured in a different batch from the rest of the gun. Those things were being cranked out in huge numbers and the specs among different batches weren't always entirely compatible with each other.

The deformation at the case mouth could be as simple as corrosion/rust that ate away at the chamber and was cleaned out years later by someone looking to sell the gun.

A few simple tests will probably determine what's wrong. Sounds like a nice winter project.

[jjb4900]

A headspace issue in this case probably wouldn't be caused by the barrel/receiver, but it certainly could be caused by a bolt that was manufactured in a different batch from the rest of the gun. Those things were being cranked out in huge numbers and the specs among different batches weren't always entirely compatible with each other.

The deformation at the case mouth could be as simple as corrosion/rust that ate away at the chamber and was cleaned out years later by someone looking to sell the gun.

A few simple tests will probably determine what's wrong. Sounds like a nice winter project.

thanks, think I'm going to work on resurrecting it and start shooting it again....btw all the #'s match and everything looks clean as far as rust and corrosion go.

[pistolp71]

If you are worried about the headspace being dangerously out, then just buy,borrow, or rent a no go gauge(or a go gauge with a piece of scotch tape on the bottom). If it chambers on a no go gauge, you have a problem. You can rent them here http://www.reamerrentals.com/searchresults.asp?cat=397

[RSRAINS]

was just a little out of round where the opening of the neck is......and what appeared to be the brass / metallic dust, I'm not a reloader or gun fanatic so maybe my findings and the info that I got was not of any real concern? but, for you guys who are, is this a real possibility of something that could happen?

It may be possible to have a piece of the neck from another piece of brass or some other debris Carbon, etc. in the chamber and deforming the neck on the fired case.

[RSRAINS]

It may be possible to have a piece of the neck from another piece of brass or some other debris Carbon, etc. in the chamber and deforming the neck on the fired case.

You can take a bronze brush a little large then the case neck and try to clean the neck area of the chamber and if it is carbon use a little Iosso or JB bore paste. 

[wildcat junkie]

thanks, think I'm going to work on resurrecting it and start shooting it again....btw all the #'s match and everything looks clean as far as rust and corrosion go.

If the #s match, I seriously doubt that is has headspace problems.

 

Find a competant gunsmith to check out the headspace & throat.

 

The barreled action alone might be worth a bit of $$$ is it hasn't been re-blued or otherwise "Bubba'd"

 

What sort of marking is on the front receiever ring? Does it have a milled or stamped, fabricated sheet metal triggergaurd? Does it have milled or stamped floorplate?

 

If it has all milled bottom metal & is an early Oberndorf or J. P. Sauer & Sohn barreled action, it is a quality piece.

 

Stamped triggergaurd W/milled bottom metal is next W/some pretty good stuff still produced. The specemines W/stamped triggergaurd & stamped floorplate being the bottom of the barrel produced when the 3rd REICH was going down the tubes..

 

BTW: If it does check out, ditch the enemic U S ammo & get some Sellier & Bellott stuff. 196gr bullets @ 2600fps. The Rem/Win stuff is 170gr RN @ 2400fps.  Basically 32 Special ballistics.

Edited January 8, 2015 by wildcat junkie

[Lawdwaz]

Have no idea Lawdwaz the head space is set up when the rifle is built or a new bbl. is set up on the rifle. Sounds as if some people just like to BS.

 

[philoshop]

Could be...? A careful visual inspection would tell that tale.

Like Wildcat said earlier, it might just be the fairly weak factory offerings in that caliber. The battle stuff was actually pretty potent by comparison. Manufacturers have to build ammo to the lowest common denominator in this case.

Have fun and keep us posted.