interesting poll

[phade]

No, I am not going to form an organization, and set up web-sites, nor camp out on the DEC's doorstep. I'll not be writing articles or trying to force anyone to agree with me. Ha-ha..... Get serious .... lol. As I said before I do have a life outside of hunting issues. I pick and choose my battles and prioritize my time spent on public items, as I assume anyone in their right mind has to. And how the DEC chooses to run their shop is certainly something anyone can have opinions on, but not necessarily something worthy of initiating a campaign over. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I lay awake at night worrying that I have a disagreement with the DEC, but your notion is very wrong. I have an concept that I have passed along to the DEC. They are aware of it as noted on their own web-site, and that is as far as I intend to take it. I am not one of the AR fanatics with an agenda, and certainly do not obsess over the issue as you have mistakenly assumed that I do. It's an interesting concept that I am sure would work far better than current methods. But at the end of the day, it is not something that I have any interest in trying to force them to do.

 

You get out what you put in.

[G-Man]

I think it all comes down to this... Most hunters want to see deer, and have the chance to harvest the game period!! ar's , one buck limit, shorter seasons are all catering to the idea if there are more bucks around they will be seen and the hunters will have a chance at them. The reality is some people cannot "see deer" or do not put in time, or know how to hunt effectivly. As the saying goes 90%of game is taken by 10% of the hunters....

I know several hunters who got skunked this year, did they do any to change the way the hunted? no went to the same stand they had for last 10 years, while the deer crossed the woods 200 yards away following freshly fallen tops from a neighbors logging job over the summer.. hunting is what you make it, being adaptive is an important skill set to have. i am so tired of hearing the hunter ..i hav ehunted the same spot for 30 years there are no deer anymore.. (perhaps the woods has matured the brushy draw he hinted has become mature woods, the farmers field the deer use to go to eat in is now a house and lawn.. the list could go on and on....

[dbHunterNY]

I think that it's imperative to get the best harvest data from the system you've got.  Doc's idea uses the existing system and so feasibility is there.  I think that there's a vast majority that simply don't report harvests, because it's a hassle and there's nothing to remotely force them to do so.  With the current system and way of extrapolating off the limited reports it's flawed.  Flawed in the sense that it's a lagging response/corrective system.  I think areas within WMUs that have more deer or less deer are so due to micro-management factors like crops, hunting pressure, hunter misunderstandings of how harvesting will effect population within a herd.  That's where education has to come into play.  People see ag ground with crappy woods holding all kinds of deer during warmer months and then late season into winter they think there's no deer because they were all shot off.  Really the deer went to winter range elsewhere but close by to sustain them.  Same thing when they confuse not seeing deer due to heavy hunting pressure with over harvest.  regardless of this DEC is much better served with a higher reporting %.  They admit a higher percentage would be better but are getting by with what they're getting.  The details of when to report unfilled tags by, penalties for not reporting, etc. can be worked out but we aren't the ones to do it.  I've seen many hunters pass doe all the time in high density areas only to have opportunity dry up later.  allowing tags to be filled sooner than later will help both biologically and make the numbers of deer walking closer related to harvest numbers.  DEC didn't see all those deer you passed early on.  They see fewer deer because you didn't harvest any of them and then the opportunity dried up.  Maintain the tagging abiltity to only tag 1 buck per portion of the annual season (early, reg, or late) but allow any tag to be filled sooner with that implement or lesser. (example: all three tags with bow early season, muzzleloader tag during rifle with a muzzleloader)  you're creating more opportunity without changing the harvest number of doe or buck allowed.  AR's or other stuff has to be considered if it's biologically sound.  it can't be to make some people happy or no but it works with what we've got sort of thing.  if that happens we'll always be divided and nothing will ever be fully accepted to see through.  "if it ain't broke then don't fix it" doesn't apply.  too simple of an analogy for this.  you can and should be always be striving to make things better, otherwise you become obsolete in the eyes of the world.

[Doc]

You get out what you put in.

You're right. I did what I set out to do. I passed on my thoughts on "one license-one report harvest reporting system" to the DEC. Now it is up to them to do with it what they want. I have received acknowledgment from their web-site that they understood it. I got out of it what I put into it. That is as far (and actually even farther) than I feel obligated to go with it. That's not my problem, and it is not your place to try to make it my problem, is it?

 

I am still waiting for you to list one reason why the concept will not work. You are unable to do so. It is obvious that you have invested no thought in this concept other than to simply be argumentative and negative. So further conversation on this makes no sense to me.

[nyantler]

We can all look in the mirror, me included. Some of us write articles on hunting, some of us run websites dedicated to antlers themselves, and some of us are smart old men.

 

I question whether our efforts are rightly focused the more I think about such things regarding NY.

 

Accepting the DEC "No" is a perfect out to do nothing in my mind. The DEC was against the AR in this part of the state, yet that group forced the DEC into adressing it. It still got voted down based on feedback, but nevertheless it wasn't taken as gospel.

 

I think you tend to forget sometimes that these are just ideas an opinions on a forum. Many of us, like myself, don't really have an issue with how things are right now as far as deer hunting goes... just because I have opinions and ideas doesn't mean it matters to me one way or the other if any of them are listened to or implemented. I fight the fights that I think need fighting like gun issues... I really couldn't care less what the DEC does in the way of deer hunting... those days for me are long over... I am all about enjoying my time here on earth and that carries over to my deer hunting. I will always have an opinion and even a few ideas, but those will simply be so that I can get in on the enjoyment of the debates on here and little more. Being an activist for your hobby's takes away a lot of time that you could be just enjoying that hobby... I'll let you young guys do the fighting until you're ready to take your place in the "just enjoy life line" with me when you get a bit older.

[phade]

Like I've said several times before, it's likely cost prohibitive or the gains are not as much as you think they might be based on their response, or a combination thereof. That's the reasoning. Evidence of this is that no whitetail state really does this on any macro level, yet it is acknowledged by our own DEC. Their response to me indicates that its not going to provide a positive ROI.

 

 

 

[Doc]

Like I've said several times before, it's likely cost prohibitive or the gains are not as much as you think they might be based on their response, or a combination thereof. That's the reasoning. Evidence of this is that no whitetail state really does this on any macro level, yet it is acknowledged by our own DEC. Their response to me indicates that its not going to provide a positive ROI.

Lol .... I'll let you have the last word. I have to move on to more constructive conversations.

[G-Man]

Ever go to a sportsman club meeting it's not the young guys that are there but older members who put in countless hours take notes and volunteer to do many different functions. For all the young guys whining I rarely see them doing anything Constructive or helpful.

[phade]

Ever go to a sportsman club meeting it's not the young guys that are there but older members who put in countless hours take notes and volunteer to do many different functions. For all the young guys whining I rarely see them doing anything Constructive or helpful.

 

I think some of the younger people can no doubt do more in some way shape or form. Some of the younger people, probably the ones you want working on such things, have minimal free time due to careers, young klds, etc.making it difficult.

 

Not saying that's an excuse for all, but many of these old people that lead groups have more free time due to being retired, semi retired, working part-time, and/or a more simplified homelife. Obviously that's a wide paintbrush, but any of the young people I consider worth a darn, have very busy lives with clear cut reasons. The ones that have free time, generally aren't the ones you or I would want working on such matters. Again, wide paintbrush, but I think you can understand what I am saying in that respect.

 

It's not related to hunting either, you see this in many forms of hobby/passion. About the only time where younger people take the lead are on things where the older generations don't have mass exposure - ie tech related hobbies.

[dbHunterNY]

I think some of the younger people can no doubt do more in some way shape or form. Some of the younger people, probably the ones you want working on such things, have minimal free time due to careers, young klds, etc.making it difficult.

 

Not saying that's an excuse for all, but many of these old people that lead groups have more free time due to being retired, semi retired, working part-time, and/or a more simplified homelife. Obviously that's a wide paintbrush, but any of the young people I consider worth a darn, have very busy lives with clear cut reasons. The ones that have free time, generally aren't the ones you or I would want working on such matters. Again, wide paintbrush, but I think you can understand what I am saying in that respect.

 

It's not related to hunting either, you see this in many forms of hobby/passion. About the only time where younger people take the lead are on things where the older generations don't have mass exposure - ie tech related hobbies.

 

I can definitely agree with this due to my schedule always seems to fill up.  need a calendar on the fridge to keep everything from turning into a multi car pile up on the freeway of life.

 

... on another note to the poll options.  I heard reliable second hand info that another well respected deer biologist within the QDM community thinks that a 1 buck per year limit will not work well enough from a biological stand point to do what needs to be done.  we'll see in 2016 how these couple Cornell/DEC surveys and their results effect everything.

 

[phade]

I can definitely agree with this due to my schedule always seems to fill up. need a calendar on the fridge to keep everything from turning into a multi car pile up on the freeway of life.

... on another note to the poll options. I heard reliable second hand info that another well respected deer biologist within the QDM community thinks that a 1 buck per year limit will not work well enough from a biological stand point to do what needs to be done. we'll see in 2016 how these couple Cornell/DEC surveys and their results effect everything.

While i certainly respect qdma/qdm biologists, i dont think their goals align with state mgmt goals. I dont put alot of credibility into that component of this process. Its also taken second hand without context. OBR has proven successful in too many states as part of a management plan for a biologist to state otherwise without some pretty big qualifiers.

[nyantler]

What would be the benefit of a one buck rule to overall deer management in NY...?

[phade]

What would be the benefit of a one buck rule to overall deer management in NY...?

 

OBR in pairing with other management regs/practices should allow for WMUs to be able to hit their BTO more reliably, increase overall age of buck harvest, and push increased doe harvest in areas that need it, which is where the population concentrations are (both hunters and deer). Many of the WMUs with BTOs that have been routinely exceeded are also the ones where doe numbers are high and to date, the DEC has only been able to issue more tags. There are far more BTOs exceeded than underachieved on a statewide basis.

 

One thing I do think they should do for those units that need it is allow hunters who kill does to get more than a specified limit of tags - ie, harvest a doe, take the head in, and get a new tag - none of this need to get second drawing or consignment crapola. They already can't give out enough of the tags in many of these WMUs, so why not allow the ones who can and do kill the does to keep doing so. We got a little light on doe tags and started holding back just so we could ensure we had a tag to stay afield this past season (we hunt 3 WMUs all with high-high odds DMPs). Sure, other parts of the state don't have this issue, but much of the state's concentration of deer and hunters do.

Edited February 5, 2015 by phade

[nyantler]

OBR in pairing with other management regs/practices should allow for WMUs to be able to hit their BTO more reliably, increase overall age of buck harvest, and push increased doe harvest in areas that need it, which is where the population concentrations are (both hunters and deer). Many of the WMUs with BTOs that have been routinely exceeded are also the ones where doe numbers are high and to date, the DEC has only been able to issue more tags. There are far more BTOs exceeded than underachieved on a statewide basis.

 

One thing I do think they should do for those units that need it is allow hunters who kill does to get more than a specified limit of tags - ie, harvest a doe, take the head in, and get a new tag - none of this need to get second drawing or consignment crapola. They already can't give out enough of the tags in many of these WMUs, so why not allow the ones who can and do kill the does to keep doing so. We got a little light on doe tags and started holding back just so we could ensure we had a tag to stay afield this past season. Sure, other parts of the state don't have this issue, but much of the state's concentration of deer and hunters do.

I commend you on your description of what needs to be done if we are to implement a OBR in NY... it is important to realize that just issuing more DMP tags to hunters that aren't killing does, or even many deer for that matter, makes little sense... issuing more tags to those that do makes sense and would be a huge part of introducing the OBR... you have definitely thought this out from a true management point of view. That was the answer I was looking for, but wasn't necessarily expecting... I like it.

[jjb4900]

One thing I do think they should do for those units that need it is allow hunters who kill does to get more than a specified limit of tags - ie, harvest a doe, take the head in, and get a new tag - none of this need to get second drawing or consignment crapola. 

that's what they do on Long Island, pretty simple process.......not to mention those deer are getting properly recorded.

[phade]

I commend you on your description of what needs to be done if we are to implement a OBR in NY... it is important to realize that just issuing more DMP tags to hunters that aren't killing does, or even many deer for that matter, makes little sense... issuing more tags to those that do makes sense and would be a huge part of introducing the OBR... you have definitely thought this out from a true management point of view. That was the answer I was looking for, but wasn't necessarily expecting... I like it.

 

Any and all changes to deer seaons should be thought out and not solely for the sake of bigger/more bucks and more targets to make hunters antler rich. I'm also not blind to the fact that one size doesn't fit all for NY. What's good here by me, might or might not be for where you are.

 

The DEC wants to add ML seasons or antlerless seasons here, but I guess I don't get that because I don't see the need if they just changed the process by which you can get DMPs. 8C and other WMUs already have this process - shoot a doe, bring in proof, get another tag, instantly. I can't see that needing legislative involvement since it's already done in several city-area WMUs. But, somehow, we need a season just for does according to the DEC. I could buy into that alot more if they were taking any steps at all above just issuing more tags, but that's all they do and say there's nothing more they can do, which clearly isn't the case. I feel like the DEC could wave a wand in these areas because I believe they have the authority to do so, and make very fast, very concrete impact on the deer numbers. Obviously, that's dangerous though because the DEC doesn't exactly have the best track record for hitting specific marks....they seem to under or overshoot, and rarely get it "just right."

 

Mike T. who leads the Ohio DNR set forth a small range at the beginning of the year publicly. He wanted herd reduction by X to X percent, and after tallying this year, they're going to be smack in the middle of that range. I can't fathom the DEC being able to do/say that and actually hit it. That's scary to me.

Edited February 5, 2015 by phade

[phade]

Interestingly. another powerhouse state, Missouri, is considering moving to OBR for archery. Just found that out today. Don't know much of the details, but that's a big move for a state that's already got good hunting.

Edited February 5, 2015 by phade

[dbHunterNY]

While i certainly respect qdma/qdm biologists, i dont think their goals align with state mgmt goals. I dont put alot of credibility into that component of this process. Its also taken second hand without context. OBR has proven successful in too many states as part of a management plan for a biologist to state otherwise without some pretty big qualifiers.

 

i think you're a pretty knowledgeable individual but you sure are making lots of assumptions.  the first was biologist was talking in context of the DEC survey options for NY.  The second biologist was having a conversation with the person I got info from specifically about NY and the surveys as well.  the first biologist lives here in NY and not exactly disconnected.  my thoughts are other states have a lot of hunters already passing yearlings so the one buck they take isn't nearly as likely to be a yearlings.  so buck to doe ratio might be a little better.  also that ones buck is probably older than here so age structure is a little better.  states concerns are more basic.  sustaining the deer herd, keep harvests rates high enough to keep people happy, and keep both residents and non-residents buying licenses.  my man worry is OBR is just forcing someone to shoot one buck.  still don't understand the effects that harvest has on the rest of the herd.  so you're not fixing the problem.  I think basic education throughout NY will go a long way.  after a while basic stuff will sink start to sink in and things will get better slowly.  in the mean time any decision made by DEC better have a good reason behind it that they let everyone know when whatever it implemented.  also it better be primarily for the deer and not to make people happy.  not everybody will be happy but if it's for the deer they'll still respect the intentions despite not agreeing.  otherwise, NY hunters won't take what DEC asks of them seriously.  just another rule, instead of everyone working toward a better deer herd to benefit everyone; hunters, commuters, nurseries (businesses), etc.

[phade]

i think you're a pretty knowledgeable individual but you sure are making lots of assumptions. the first was biologist was talking in context of the DEC survey options for NY. The second biologist was having a conversation with the person I got info from specifically about NY and the surveys as well. the first biologist lives here in NY and not exactly disconnected. my thoughts are other states have a lot of hunters already passing yearlings so the one buck they take isn't nearly as likely to be a yearlings. so buck to doe ratio might be a little better. also that ones buck is probably older than here so age structure is a little better. states concerns are more basic. sustaining the deer herd, keep harvests rates high enough to keep people happy, and keep both residents and non-residents buying licenses. my man worry is OBR is just forcing someone to shoot one buck. still don't understand the effects that harvest has on the rest of the herd. so you're not fixing the problem. I think basic education throughout NY will go a long way. after a while basic stuff will sink start to sink in and things will get better slowly. in the mean time any decision made by DEC better have a good reason behind it that they let everyone know when whatever it implemented. also it better be primarily for the deer and not to make people happy. not everybody will be happy but if it's for the deer they'll still respect the intentions despite not agreeing. otherwise, NY hunters won't take what DEC asks of them seriously. just another rule, instead of everyone working toward a better deer herd to benefit everyone; hunters, commuters, nurseries (businesses), etc.

A "qdm" biologist? Ive heard of biologists working for the qdma, Ive heard of cervid biologists of varying degrees, but a qdm biologist? Never heard of one. What makes one a qdm biologist? Deer steward classes?

As to the assumptions, theres alot in your reply as well. Making assumptions about buck age and so on and so forth.

Im certainly NOT a biologist but i do have enough industry exposure to connect dots from time to time. Its not rocket science to see that certain options on the table will help deer management from a state, resource, and hunter perspective. OBR is one of them, especially when paired with sound practice to help, as evidenced by pretty widespread use and aforementioned results.

If you think that only having one buck tag wont change some of the hunting population cultural thinking, i dont know what to say. Two buck tags is the quickest way to ensuring young bucks get shot. Nothing like waiting on the mack daddy monster pig buck with the second tag after shooting bucky jr.

Im personally fine if people want to shoot a young buck. But OBR when used in conjunction with other smart regs/practices is a great way to better manage the resource...which includes those pesky non antler sporting does in much of the state where its needed.

Edited February 6, 2015 by phade

[nyantler]

While i certainly respect qdma/qdm biologists, i dont think their goals align with state mgmt goals. I dont put alot of credibility into that component of this process. Its also taken second hand without context. OBR has proven successful in too many states as part of a management plan for a biologist to state otherwise without some pretty big qualifiers.

 

Just curious how you can respect a qdma/qdm biologist if you don't know what one is... ?  I know... I'm a wise ass, but it is a good question.

[phade]

Just curious how you can respect a qdma/qdm biologist if you don't know what one is... ? I know... I'm a wise ass, but it is a good question.

My assumption was he used the term qdm and meant qdma...people use qdm and qdma interchangeably wrong too often. It really makes people look uneducated (nothing at all about dbhunter) when they yap about qdm and qdma and use them wrong. I lile the good old, i practice qdma. I just have to lol at that.

My assumption is hes talking about Dougherty or someone similar. Cant imagine he is referencing Hurst.

[dbHunterNY]

My assumption was he used the term qdm and meant qdma...people use qdm and qdma interchangeably wrong too often. It really makes people look uneducated (nothing at all about dbhunter) when they yap about qdm and qdma and use them wrong. I lile the good old, i practice qdma. I just have to lol at that.

My assumption is hes talking about Dougherty or someone similar. Cant imagine he is referencing Hurst.

 

 

A "qdm" biologist? Ive heard of biologists working for the qdma, Ive heard of cervid biologists of varying degrees, but a qdm biologist? Never heard of one. What makes one a qdm biologist? Deer steward classes?

As to the assumptions, theres alot in your reply as well. Making assumptions about buck age and so on and so forth.

Im certainly NOT a biologist but i do have enough industry exposure to connect dots from time to time. Its not rocket science to see that certain options on the table will help deer management from a state, resource, and hunter perspective. OBR is one of them, especially when paired with sound practice to help, as evidenced by pretty widespread use and aforementioned results.

If you think that only having one buck tag wont change some of the hunting population cultural thinking, i dont know what to say. Two buck tags is the quickest way to ensuring young bucks get shot. Nothing like waiting on the mack daddy monster pig buck with the second tag after shooting bucky jr.

Im personally fine if people want to shoot a young buck. But OBR when used in conjunction with other smart regs/practices is a great way to better manage the resource...which includes those pesky non antler sporting does in much of the state where its needed.

 

well first off I'm not speaking for them.  I'm just passing on some stuff I've heard.  you said qdm biologist.  not me.  yes, they're apart of the QDMA.  as far as I know there isn't really any official stance so to speak from the QDMA though.  just individuals discussions between one another.

 

in some areas in NY OBR may work but it doesn't seem to be the answer for NY in general.  I can at the least say it's not for counties around here. Exception maybe for 4J (Albany) because it's bow only.  I don't think you really need to limit harvest given the big limitation though.  The opportunity for doe there is already practically the most it can be.  so i guess it wouldn't be for 4J but for a different reason.

 

so to roll with OBR i guess I'm saying sure but not for WMUs or areas around here (4C).  then I'm using an educated thought saying that areas like the dacks and catskills would be no too.

 

[dbHunterNY]

My assumption was he used the term qdm and meant qdma...people use qdm and qdma interchangeably wrong too often. It really makes people look uneducated (nothing at all about dbhunter) when they yap about qdm and qdma and use them wrong. I lile the good old, i practice qdma. I just have to lol at that.

My assumption is hes talking about Dougherty or someone similar. Cant imagine he is referencing Hurst.

 

I just said within the QDM community, not meaning QDM biologists.  Not any Dougherty and definitely not Hurst.  I don't even know where Hurst would stand on anything.  That and the info i gave in the last post is enough.  Social media isn't really the place to throw names out there without permission and absolute clarity.  Things get messed up and twisted rather easy.  It's not important who said what so much as very knowledgeable deer biologists said it'll have effects sure but it's not the best solution.

[dbHunterNY]

...and for the doe side of things i agree with not limiting those who are successful.  i think maybe additional tags somehow like Phade said is a good idea and i still strongly stand by what I've said on these forums of allowing for sooner filling of tags to help doe harvest (i.e. allow a hunter to fill two of three tags with doe during archery but still be able to use one to hunt for a buck without waiting until the next portion of the annual season).  i'll add more info in that a big part of doe harvest out this way is the reluctance to shoot a doe more than so than the opportunity or ability.  low numbers decades ago and the misunderstanding of herd management has many still thinking that any doe shot will decimate the herd.  we're working on that through education with the various QDM co-ops in the area.

[phade]

I just said within the QDM community, not meaning QDM biologists. Not any Dougherty and definitely not Hurst. I don't even know where Hurst would stand on anything. That and the info i gave in the last post is enough. Social media isn't really the place to throw names out there without permission and absolute clarity. Things get messed up and twisted rather easy. It's not important who said what so much as very knowledgeable deer biologists said it'll have effects sure but it's not the best solution.

This isnt some national secret. If youre going to post something like that, presenting a veil and not even hearing it first person just seems...odd. you were right on the term, you used qdm community, so i was off on that.

i guess thats beside the point of this thread though, there are merits to alot of options and that needs to be decided upon.