interesting poll

[Doc]

There really isn't that much data on the tag. I don't see the issue. Dates are easy and are there already in what we cut out. Unless they changed it I do t think we report antler points. It is on the tag but I don't think it reports. Season and implement used are dots now. The only sticking point I see is location of the kill. I haven't done it to compare but I wonder how the zip code maps works? Might as well have some use for that code beside delivery of junk mail. Lol.

As fast as licenses by mail. Do tags are available online? I haven't tried that but I will this year. Hate those lines. I still can't see why a code on the receipt from registering g you tags couldn't be used on line when ordering.

I do think the problem is more wide spread than we may think. I hear so many accounts especially the getting the tag and reporting it without taking the doe. I guess there is no stopping that no matter what change is made.

Even if there was some way of cramming all that coded info on those tiny little tags, the question still remains, "Why"? There is nothing about buying truckloads of scanners that makes people report. In fact since they now have to get in their cars and go somewhere to make reports, an argument could be made that the reporting rates would actually go down. understanding that there is there is nothing about scanning or any other way of collecting data that prevents falsifying reports, I see no reason to throw the baby out with the bath-water when that is not really necessary. We have all the hardware and most of the software already existing that does a great job of recording all the kill info in an already paid-for, unmanned, way, and almost all of it is already in computer just waiting for software additions and rules changes and someone at the DEC to hit the "on" button on their computers to churn out whatever info they need and even more if needed in the future (surveys and polls easily added to this style of reporting system if that is ever deemed useful). I have read nothing that provides any practical way of eliminating falsification. So why not change (add) some software, revise the reporting requirements and flip the switch. Save money, get nearly 100% compliance, keep our biologists from ramming all over the countryside checking this place and that for input and then taking more time to input that gathered info into computer-useful format, and then making statistical guesses at how many people broke the law by not reporting. I see big dollars saved in the process and almost complete compliance.

 

Now, if they want to run some random spot-checks to see if data falsification really is a problem, that could be done. However, understand that that is a different side issue completely separate from the problem of non-compliance with mandatory harvest reporting laws. Perhaps cranking up penalties and making a few examples of those that are found voluntarily perjuring their reports, might just make that problem go away if in fact it is found to really be a significant enough real problem.

[jjb4900]

I don't follow. Do you mean like one doe tag at a time? I wouldn't want that. It would stop the ability of taking multiple deer on the same day or out of the same group.

look at what they did years ago....you got one regular tag when you bought your license, if you bought the bow stamp, that tag was good for either sex during archery and if you were successful during archery, you were able to get a replacement that was for the regular season......additionally if you still had that tag come the late bow / muzzleloader season it converted back to an either sex tag..............doe tags were given out pretty much the same as now. Basically you would be given one tag that was good for all three seasons that could be replaced if filled if you bought the additional privilege, but you would have to report the take prior to getting the next one....and you still would have the dmps ahead of time.

Edited January 31, 2015 by jjb4900

[Doc]

look at what they did years ago....you got one regular tag when you bought your license, if you bought the bow stamp, that tag was good for either sex during archery and if you were successful during archery, you were able to get a replacement that was for the regular season......additionally if you still had that tag come the late bow / muzzleloader season it converted back to an either sex tag..............doe tags were given out pretty much the same as now. Basically you would be given one tag that was good for all three seasons that could be replaced if filled if you bought the additional privilege, but you would have to report the take prior to getting the next one....and you still would have the dmps ahead of time.

Again, I do not see how changes in that area would improve the integrity of the harvest reporting system. It probably is going over my head, or I'm misinterpreting something.

[The_Real_TCIII]

I have already explained how to solve almost all of the compliance problem. No estimates, no guessing, just simple computer programming and rules changes.

Garbage in, garbage out

[jjb4900]

Again, I do not see how changes in that area would improve the integrity of the harvest reporting system. It probably is going over my head, or I'm misinterpreting something.

I would think the act of having to physically report at least one or two of the tags to get another  would help to some degree.......certainly not a fix all.

[nyantler]

We all know that even with 100% reporting there will never be 100% accuracy because of the lack of integrity of some hunters to report truthfully... but I would think the margin of error would be much lower if everyone reported.. a simple method where if you don't report you don't get a license again until you do... that would go for the lifetime licenses as well... regardless of how you report, you must report... whether by phone, computer or in person... whichever turns out to be most economical for the DEC. Everyone that hunts must buy a license each year.. that is when the reporting must be done (for lifers maybe by phone).. BUT.. no matter how, you don't get the new years tags until you do. .. like Doc says, in this day of computers there shouldn't be a lot of cost involved.

[jjb4900]

We all know that even with 100% reporting there will never be 100% accuracy because of the lack of integrity of some hunters to report truthfully... but I would think the margin of error would be much lower if everyone reported.. a simple method where if you don't report you don't get a license again until you do... that would go for the lifetime licenses as well... regardless of how you report, you must report... whether by phone, computer or in person... whichever turns out to be most economical for the DEC. Everyone that hunts must buy a license each year.. that is when the reporting must be done (for lifers maybe by phone).. BUT.. no matter how, you don't get the new years tags until you do. .. like Doc says, in this day of computers there shouldn't be a lot of cost involved.

could it really be any simpler?

[nyantler]

could it really be any simpler?

 

Well it definitely ain't rocket science if I came up with it...LOL Makes you wonder though why it has never been tried.

[jjb4900]

Well it definitely ain't rocket science if I came up with it...LOL Makes you wonder though why it has never been tried.

probably like stated before.....it would take jobs away from the people who are out in the field working on getting harvest counts.

[Doc]

probably like stated before.....it would take jobs away from the people who are out in the field working on getting harvest counts.

It might cost some jobs ..... great for Managers trying to balance the ever shrinking DEC resources. Or perhaps it might free up some of the talent for more jobs aimed at their actual training and education rather than simply being used as data collecting clerks.

[phade]

Why havent other states done this, if its so easy and perfect of a solution?

Edited February 1, 2015 by phade

[jjb4900]

Why havent other states done this, if its so easy and perfect of a solution?

because it's probably not?

[jjb4900]

if you look at last years harvest # it was about 240,000 deer taken......that's a lot of deer, I can't imagine it being that grossly under reported by whatever means they use.

[stubby68]

if you look at last years harvest # it was about 240,000 deer taken......that's a lot of deer, I can't imagine it being that grossly under reported by whatever means they use.

                             How do we know those numbers are real? I didn't count all the deer taken. Did you? Just because some report says that was the number taken does not mean it is true. The best they can do is guess and make up numbers. If hunters not reporting there kills was not a problem then we would not be talking about it would we?  The Dec has no real way of knowing how many deer are out there or how many are taken so the guess and give you stats to back up there guess. A guess is only a guess just like I could guess there were only 21 deer killed because that is all I saw dead. Far from a correct number yet more of a fact because I personally saw thoes deer. The dec gets there guess from what they are told by the hunters. At least I saw the ones I guessed about.

[phade]

How do we know those numbers are real? I didn't count all the deer taken. Did you? Just because some report says that was the number taken does not mean it is true. The best they can do is guess and make up numbers. If hunters not reporting there kills was not a problem then we would not be talking about it would we? The Dec has no real way of knowing how many deer are out there or how many are taken so the guess and give you stats to back up there guess. A guess is only a guess just like I could guess there were only 21 deer killed because that is all I saw dead. Far from a correct number yet more of a fact because I personally saw thoes deer. The dec gets there guess from what they are told by the hunters. At least I saw the ones I guessed about.

my head hurts.

[stubby68]

Ha-ha-ha .... Yes we always hear about these people who break this law and break that law, but when somebody asks, "What did the DEC do to them when you turned them in?", the answer always comes back, "Well gosh I didn't do that."

 

 

                           Well Doc a few years ago I had the misfurtune to hunt with a group of guys (5) who shot loads of deer hung them in barn no tags and did not report them. I did not know this about the group till I was brought in. When I found out They had 14 deer hanging in on of they guys barns with not tags. I saw this and was able to get a couple pics. I called the dec told them and said I had pics. I was told it would be looked into. A couple days latter the guy who owned the place where the deer were called me asking if the deer could be kept at my place for a while. I said no and asked why.  He told me the dec called him and said they had a complaint and asked if it were true he told them no and they asked if it was ok to come out and look. He said sure and was told someone would be around inthe afternoon of fallowing day. I was there the next day when they showed up and looked around. They said that someone must just have a grudge against him and thanked him for his time. That is when I steped up and said I had made the call and had saw the deer and showed them the pics. I was told that with no deer being there then it was only hear say. Wow what a way to say kill what you want we do not care. so much for reporting them

 

          Also ho do you report someone who says they killd deer when they didnt.

[jjb4900]

my head hurts.

yeah, no kidding.....happy hour must just have ended.

[Doc]

 

          Also how do you report someone who says they killed deer when they didn't.

 

If in fact you do know it for a fact: "The toll-free hotline number is 1-844-DEC-ECOS (1-844-332-3267). It will be staffed around the clock and connect callers to a DEC police dispatcher."

 

Here's the deal.... the burden of proof is not on you. It is the DEC's responsibility to conduct an investigation. Sometimes that investigation consists of things that go on in a covert way that may not be known to the complainant. At any rate, a complaint is on record, and we really have no way of knowing exactly what the DEC is going to eventually do with that info.

 

Just because you cannot produce the "smoking gun" doesn't mean that you should simply ignore illegal acts when you know they have been committed. You never know, this guy may have another report pending that your complaint will lend credibility to.

 

However, the point that I was making was that there is a lot of neighborhood gossip that we accept as fact and then repeat it as fact (such as in internet forums). If it is truly a known fact, then it should be reported. If it isn't a personally known fact then it should not be stated as such in a discussion.

[Doc]

Why havent other states done this, if its so easy and perfect of a solution?

That's kind of like saying everything has already been invented, so anything thought of from this point forward can't possibly work.

[Doc]

if you look at last years harvest # it was about 240,000 deer taken......that's a lot of deer, I can't imagine it being that grossly under reported by whatever means they use.

The DEC has produced a page that addresses reporting rates and how they are calculated. They also have written a rebuttal to the plan that I have described. Check it out and see if you agree with them. You will find it at:  http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/47738.html

 

 On that same page you will find a stat that directly addresses your feeling about "gross under-reporting". The figure that they arrived at was that the calculated "reporting rate" was 45% in 2006. Less than half of all hunters report their kills even though it is the law. Now if that isn't gross under-reporting, then I don't know what is.

 

It is all very interesting, and I encourage everyone to read that page. It's not very long. Come up with your own conclusions.

[phade]

That's kind of like saying everything has already been invented, so anything thought of from this point forward can't possibly work.

Also like saying theres more than fifty wildlife managaement agencies with combined hundreds if not thousands of years of operation. If your simple idea was that good doc, itd be done by now. Simple as that.

[nyantler]

If in fact you do know it for a fact: "The toll-free hotline number is 1-844-DEC-ECOS (1-844-332-3267). It will be staffed around the clock and connect callers to a DEC police dispatcher."

 

Here's the deal.... the burden of proof is not on you. It is the DEC's responsibility to conduct an investigation. Sometimes that investigation consists of things that go on in a covert way that may not be known to the complainant. At any rate, a complaint is on record, and we really have no way of knowing exactly what the DEC is going to eventually do with that info.

 

Just because you cannot produce the "smoking gun" doesn't mean that you should simply ignore illegal acts when you know they have been committed. You never know, this guy may have another report pending that your complaint will lend credibility to.

 

However, the point that I was making was that there is a lot of neighborhood gossip that we accept as fact and then repeat it as fact (such as in internet forums). If it is truly a known fact, then it should be reported. If it isn't a personally known fact then it should not be stated as such in a discussion.

 

Absolutely right... and it never hurts to put the bad guys on law enforcement's radar.

[gjs4]

Happily did the survey and not surprised by results. Our average hunter is getting older and owns more orange than camo.

I am a deer fanatic and would love to see more mature deer. Everything you think we have me pounding yes in those questions. Care to know what I want?

More dec involvement. Yup- that's it.

Fines and pen tallies that hurt poachers.

Deer census and take monitoring (not this car accident, stopped by a processor, phone a robot crap)

Zones that make sense

Hunter interaction not a survey sent to 8000 of 450000 hunters.

We pay a lot of money- far too much for the understaffed and incompetent organization we have telling us what's best per their pocket linings.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Doc]

Also like saying theres more than fifty wildlife managaement agencies with combined hundreds if not thousands of years of operation. If your simple idea was that good doc, itd be done by now. Simple as that.

Yeah, like I said there are absolutely no undiscovered ideas that are any good. They've all been discovered .....right? That's the kind of forward thinking  that we all need.

[jjb4900]

The DEC has produced a page that addresses reporting rates and how they are calculated. They also have written a rebuttal to the plan that I have described. Check it out and see if you agree with them. You will find it at:  http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/47738.html

 

 On that same page you will find a stat that directly addresses your feeling about "gross under-reporting". The figure that they arrived at was that the calculated "reporting rate" was 45% in 2006. Less than half of all hunters report their kills even though it is the law. Now if that isn't gross under-reporting, then I don't know what is.

 

It is all very interesting, and I encourage everyone to read that page. It's not very long. Come up with your own conclusions.

thanks for the link, I posted it on page #5..............I'm not saying that hunters are not under reporting, because it's quite obvious that they are.......I think that the # they eventually come up with is probably fairly close after all the data they add up.