The History of Elk in NY State

[Daveboone]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2015 at 7:17 PM, Jennifer said:

Some years ago I read an interesting article talking about how the North American Chestnut (now gone thanks to the blight) was once so numerous that that it was said that a squirrel could travel from the east coast to the Mississippi without touching the ground, and that the hills had a 'second snow' of white in the spring, in appearance only, due to the vast number of Chestnut blossoms. Chestnuts were once around 25% of standing timber in our Eastern forests. What was very interesting was that the Chestnut and Beech (also dying out) masts were extremely bountiful most years, and that it supported all of the wildlife we know today, in addition to the Eastern Elk, Passenger Pigeon, and Carolina Parakeet.

 

I couldn't find the exact article but I found this one: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/03/11/resurrecting-a-forest/

 

Our landscape and habitats have changed a lot, since then...

(American Chestnut stand)

(I really wish I could have been around to see the forests when they were like this, but I'd be long dead if I were!! Still, how cool would it have been?)

I have also read up quite a bit on the American Chestnut. Cornell is putting a lot of effort into reintroducing a blight resistant strain . No Question at all the habitat has changed tremendously, esp. when you think of the incredible amount of mast forage a Chestnut tree based forest provided to the wildlife. As with the NYS elk population, obviously bear also benefited greatly. Without this change in habitat holding capacity, doubtful our forests could sustain a larger large mammal population. Bear are expanding, but are doubtful to establish too much more widely exactly for that reason. The current bear season was changed allowing to the best of my recollection, an open season across the state to allow culling the heard as needed. Oswego county (where I am at) is a perfect example. Folks are seeing a few bears, but they aren't sticking around. 

[Northcountryman]

On 3/11/2015 at 7:17 PM, Jennifer said:

Some years ago I read an interesting article talking about how the North American Chestnut (now gone thanks to the blight) was once so numerous that that it was said that a squirrel could travel from the east coast to the Mississippi without touching the ground, and that the hills had a 'second snow' of white in the spring, in appearance only, due to the vast number of Chestnut blossoms. Chestnuts were once around 25% of standing timber in our Eastern forests. What was very interesting was that the Chestnut and Beech (also dying out) masts were extremely bountiful most years, and that it supported all of the wildlife we know today, in addition to the Eastern Elk, Passenger Pigeon, and Carolina Parakeet.

 

I couldn't find the exact article but I found this one: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/03/11/resurrecting-a-forest/

 

Our landscape and habitats have changed a lot, since then...

(American Chestnut stand)

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/files/2013/03/chestnut-cropped-990x596.png

(I really wish I could have been around to see the forests when they were like this, but I'd be long dead if I were!! Still, how cool would it have been?)

I realize this is a very old thread, but have done a little reading about Eastern elk  and thought might be worth resurrecting.  Does anyone know the major differences between eastern and rocky mountain Elk? Are they considered the same species, yet separate races or different species altogther?

[Northcountryman]

On 4/1/2018 at 12:13 AM, G-Man said:

Chestnut was found in the entire northeast. The map shows . 1900s by then many areas were cleared.. elma ny has many elk fossils found in Indian site yet Lancaster does not.. like all animal and species they are found in greater density pockets and areas contain less.  And elk migrate..so if chestnuts weren't numerous in their  areas thay could move to food. Or they would be more numerous in high food areas and less in other.

Interesting hypothesis that may have some merit, but chestnuts were obliterated much later in the east than Elk- I think around 1920s or so- whereas Elk were done by my mid to late 1800s , right? Not that there couldnt be a correlation there, but there are other factors more impt IMHO.  Like most species that have been extinguished, my guess is overhunting and habitat destruction were the major factors here--what do you think?

[G-Man]

8 hours ago, Northcountryman said:

Interesting hypothesis that may have some merit, but chestnuts were obliterated much later in the east than Elk- I think around 1920s or so- whereas Elk were done by my mid to late 1800s , right? Not that there couldnt be a correlation there, but there are other factors more impt IMHO.  Like most species that have been extinguished, my guess is overhunting and habitat destruction were the major factors here--what do you think?

Elk were lost by loss of habitat and over hunting but remember most of nys was cleared of timber by mid 1800s . Only pockets and deep ravines were inaccessible.  Remove the food chestnut primarily and all wildlife suffers no cover and no food.. now shoot the highly visable game. 

But my.post was showing historical finds of elk, just like some area are predominantly hemlock and others maple or oak go to ohio and hickory and walnut are prevalent throughout  certain area, elk would be in greater numbers where habitat was better for them just seems to follow the distribution of chestnut rather closely when compared

Edited March 21, 2021 by G-Man

[ATbuckhunter]

8 hours ago, Northcountryman said:

Interesting hypothesis that may have some merit, but chestnuts were obliterated much later in the east than Elk- I think around 1920s or so- whereas Elk were done by my mid to late 1800s , right? Not that there couldnt be a correlation there, but there are other factors more impt IMHO.  Like most species that have been extinguished, my guess is overhunting and habitat destruction were the major factors here--what do you think?

I think it was over hunting that really did them in as well as a loss in habitat. Eastern elk were more suited for more wooded habitats than the western elk. 

[G-Man]

16 minutes ago, ATbuckhunter said:

I think it was over hunting that really did them in as well as a loss in habitat. Eastern elk were more suited for more wooded habitats than the western elk. 

Remove the woods and they are lot easier to see to shoot

[G-Man]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_the_United_States  

It's pretty simple remove the habitat and shoot a few and game.dissappears.. imo habitat is the most important . Just like creating a sanctuary for deer to a property does more than a food plot. 

[Northcountryman]

2 hours ago, G-Man said:

Elk were lost by loss of habitat and over hunting but remember most of nys was cleared of timber by mid 1800s . Only pockets and deep ravines were inaccessible.  Remove the food chestnut primarily and all wildlife suffers no cover and no food.. now shoot the highly visable game. 

But my.post was showing historical finds of elk, just like some area are predominantly hemlock and others maple or oak go to ohio and hickory and walnut are prevalent throughout  certain area, elk would be in greater numbers where habitat was better for them just seems to follow the distribution of chestnut rather closely when compared

So you’re saying that the decline of the American Chestnut was the major contributing factor that led to the decline in Elk populations in the East? I feel like the elk pops started to decline first though , quite awhile before the chestnut did , isn’t that right ? 
Also , was the chestnut a major food staple for Elk ? Not saying you’re wrong , I just don’t know ; do you know if that’s so? 

[Northcountryman]

1 hour ago, ATbuckhunter said:

I think it was over hunting that really did them in as well as a loss in habitat. Eastern elk were more suited for more wooded habitats than the western elk. 

I’ve read that they’re more of a grazer type undulate than white tails ; that’s why the western herd continues to do ok cuz there’s more open space areas. Do you know if they’re separate species or not ?

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, Northcountryman said:

I’ve read that they’re more of a grazer type undulate than white tails ; that’s why the western herd continues to do ok cuz there’s more open space areas. Do you know if they’re separate species or not ?

They are a seperate eastern elk were Woodlands where western are.grazers as mast.producing trees are uncommon, more.poplar and.pine, eastern were dominated by chestnut, oak,beach ,hickory

[Northcountryman]

8 hours ago, G-Man said:

They are a seperate eastern elk were Woodlands where western are.grazers as mast.producing trees are uncommon, more.poplar and.pine, eastern were dominated by chestnut, oak,beach ,hickory

Yes , that makes sense; perhaps this is part of the reason why reintroduction efforts have been unsuccessful— Because they’re using western Elk. 

[G-Man]

3 minutes ago, Northcountryman said:

Yes , that makes sense; perhaps this is part of the reason why reintroduction efforts have been unsuccessful— Because they’re using western Elk. 

Western Herds in Pennsylvania and Kentucky and Tennessee are doing well but as grazers they range far and are limited by landownership and land use.. 

[Northcountryman]

30 minutes ago, G-Man said:

Western Herds in Pennsylvania and Kentucky and Tennessee are doing well but as grazers they range far and are limited by landownership and land use.. 

Right--but as grazers.  I think they would struggle in NY up in the Adirondacks now in most places , due to the fact that there are few open areas with suitable grazing habitat. So, the original eastern Elk herd in NY must NOT have been a grazeing Ungulate, correct? They fed on alot of Mast like Chestnuts-- probably Acorns and Beechnuts also-- and browse probably during the winter, much like Whitetails.  

[SportsmanNH]

3 hours ago, G-Man said:

Western Herds in Pennsylvania and Kentucky and Tennessee are doing well but as grazers they range far and are limited by landownership and land use.. 

 

3 hours ago, Northcountryman said:

Right--but as grazers.  I think they would struggle in NY up in the Adirondacks now in most places , due to the fact that there are few open areas with suitable grazing habitat. So, the original eastern Elk herd in NY must NOT have been a grazeing Ungulate, correct? They fed on alot of Mast like Chestnuts-- probably Acorns and Beechnuts also-- and browse probably during the winter, much like Whitetails.  

You both bring up great points. I always wondered why the Penn herd did so well. But are we talking about the same elk or was there a browsing elk subspecies ( presumed now gone ) and a grazing elk ?  I would of thought they are the same animal that adapted from grazing to browsing just like a whitetail adapts to the environment it is in. The only thing that changes is the enzymes in its stomach to digest the different foods  available with the changing seasons . 

Edited March 21, 2021 by SportsmanNH

[crappyice]

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[G-Man]

3 hours ago, SportsmanNH said:

 

You both bring up great points. I always wondered why the Penn herd did so well. But are we talking about the same elk or was there a browsing elk subspecies ( presumed now gone ) and a grazing elk ?  I would of thought they are the same animal that adapted from grazing to browsing just like a whitetail adapts to the environment it is in. The only thing that changes is the enzymes in its stomach to digest the different foods  available with the changing seasons . 

Historically the eastern elk was smaller boned and smaller horned, much like the woodland caribou,vs the barren ground caribou. Same species but different, like the Yukon moose and eastern.. just different but the same,  whitetail are broken into several subspecies as well and you cant take a northern whitetail and move it south it wont do well ( was tried many times) same deer but different each adapted to its specific enviroment

[Northcountryman]

On 3/20/2021 at 11:11 PM, G-Man said:

They are a seperate eastern elk were Woodlands where western are.grazers as mast.producing trees are uncommon, more.poplar and.pine, eastern were dominated by chestnut, oak,beach ,hickory

G-Man, I agree with you, but I was thinking: In the Adirondacks, there wouldnt have been that many American chestnut trees due to the extreme climate there (cold as hell in the winter!).  Now I dont know this for a fact, but it is my belief that Chestnuts in NY would have been found more in the southern/western zone due to the differences in climate and as a consequence, I dont think that the demise of the American chestnut would have contributed significantly to the extirpation of Eastern Elk in the Adirondacks. Elsewhere in the state, I think you raise a vaild point but I think overhunting and habitat destruction (i.e. logging) were mostly the primary factors contributing to its decline.

[G-Man]

7 hours ago, Northcountryman said:

G-Man, I agree with you, but I was thinking: In the Adirondacks, there wouldnt have been that many American chestnut trees due to the extreme climate there (cold as hell in the winter!).  Now I dont know this for a fact, but it is my belief that Chestnuts in NY would have been found more in the southern/western zone due to the differences in climate and as a consequence, I dont think that the demise of the American chestnut would have contributed significantly to the extirpation of Eastern Elk in the Adirondacks. Elsewhere in the state, I think you raise a vaild point but I think overhunting and habitat destruction (i.e. logging) were mostly the primary factors contributing to its decline.

The chestnut was not in the adirondacks and elk were not numerous there either,  their range overlapped with woodland bison and the american chestnut. 

[Northcountryman]

Yeah , that makes sense about the chestnut — I figured it’s range would only extend mostly into southern NY , just like the black walnut . So are you saying Elk were in the adirondacks historically , but not as numerous as in lowland areas of NY ?