The Switch...

[growalot]

It looks like I may have a continuation of last year.....The buck have stayed on us...The cams are showing a 3:1 buck to doe. Well the old saying watch what you wish for is ringing true in my ears....I have delayed plantings...never dropped a Single late winter tree for food(snow too deep)and will not put in soy beans again...I think that is what brought them here in the first place. Not sure why they are staying..

[phade]

My thought process is to let alpha does live or let an aspiring alpha doe come to fruition. I'd be passing on adult does this season and shoot yearlings only.

[growalot]

What I need are Alfa does to come back...and the bucks to go away during the summer. Seeing them during the summer isn't as fun as I thought it would be....Seeing they disperse away from us in the fall...and keep the doe away as well.

[phade]

What I need are Alfa does to come back...and the bucks to go away during the summer. Seeing them during the summer isn't as fun as I thought it would be....Seeing they disperse away from us in the fall...and keep the doe away as well.

 

Again, don't shoot does older than yearlings. In time an alpha will set up shop.

[landtracdeerhunter]

Hum, if  memory serves me correctly, you were an all doe community  through the summer until last season when buck haven seem to interest your property. Could it be more bucks/ square mile have taken up shop?

 

I have always been fond of harvesting a younger doe and letting more mature ones walk. I take a lot of flack for it sometimes. The things we go through for these deer, LOL.

[Buckstopshere]

I couldn't agree more (about shooting the younger does and leaving the old gals.) I used to try to tag the largest doe in my hunting areas, for the challenge and for the meat. Lot more meat on an old one than a young one. But the negative effect that taking an old doe has on the local rutting buck population is surprising. When the old alpha doe in a hunting area is taken out, it seems the younger does that are herding up, gravitate off the property towards adjacent alpha does, fall in with them and take on their patterns. And of course the bucks follow.

[phade]

The only time I ever want to take an alpha doe is when she becomes a hinderance to your hunting - ie she knows your stands and can pick you out. Otherwise, she'll keep that doe group on the regular with patterns you can use to your advantage.

 

You can work around harvest numbers with does that fall in line w/the alpha and only letting one or two get a pass to supplant the alpha. All else is on the table.

 

[phade]

I couldn't agree more (about shooting the younger does and leaving the old gals.) I used to try to tag the largest doe in my hunting areas, for the challenge and for the meat. Lot more meat on an old one than a young one. But the negative effect that taking an old doe has on the local rutting buck population is surprising. When the old alpha doe in a hunting area is taken out, it seems the younger does that are herding up, gravitate off the property towards adjacent alpha does, fall in with them and take on their patterns. And of course the bucks follow.

 

The bucks pester the younger does so much in the rut that they get thrown off their normal behaviors and the alpha doe isn't there to return the group to it.

[dbHunterNY]

you should have at the very least 25% of your doe population 4.5+ years old, preferably more.  many can't be talked out of shooting bigger bodied doe for the meat versus a 100 lb yearling doe.  just let those hunters (others in your party or neighbors) to what they do.  effort and mentality toward shooting doe will most likely remain relatively constant from year to year.  if so, you can keep track of what percentage of harvested doe around you are 4.5+ year old doe.  once you're below that percentage you could be taking too many doe.  I guess if you were that good and changed to focus on the oldest of doe with success, it'd instead mean you're taking too many mature doe if you're seeing the same year to year.  this would be skewed if you started targeting solely young doe obviously.  depending on how many doe you've got you may have to do what Phade said and target those young doe.  I tend not to completely protect big old mature doe in our area.  in our area we've seen them 8.5+ yrs old and dry without fawns.  I tend to see them not apart of bigger family groups, which won't help your cause.  I imagine a doe at peak health that's more like 6.5 could push them out of a family group.  don't want to keep a nonproductive deer around that's just eating the others food, especially when worried about carrying capacity or hard winter projections in some northern areas of NY.

[phade]

you should have at the very least 25% of your doe population 4.5+ years old, preferably more.  many can't be talked out of shooting bigger bodied doe for the meat versus a 100 lb yearling doe.  just let those hunters (others in your party or neighbors) to what they do.  effort and mentality toward shooting doe will most likely remain relatively constant from year to year.  if so, you can keep track of what percentage of harvested doe around you are 4.5+ year old doe.  once you're below that percentage you could be taking too many doe.  I guess if you were that good and changed to focus on the oldest of doe with success, it'd instead mean you're taking too many mature doe if you're seeing the same year to year.  this would be skewed if you started targeting solely young doe obviously.  depending on how many doe you've got you may have to do what Phade said and target those young doe.  I tend not to completely protect big old mature doe in our area.  in our area we've seen them 8.5+ yrs old and dry without fawns.  I tend to see them not apart of bigger family groups, which won't help your cause.  I imagine a doe at peak health that's more like 6.5 could push them out of a family group.  don't want to keep a nonproductive deer around that's just eating the others food, especially when worried about carrying capacity or hard winter projections in some northern areas of NY.

 

Does in Grow's area are bred with a 90+% success rate - typically high 90s. Dry does here are about as rare as Vince Lombardi trophies are in wNY.

[growalot]

Shooting the old alphas isn't the problem...and Phade is correct about our doe...now I tend to stay away from shooting any doe producing triplets and try to avoid the doe with twins those doe are producing buck and doe but when I see a doe with just one doe fawn  and she is at least filled out..give me a shot and your on the ground. I try to figure out lead doe in a group but to be honest that is the other thing that has changed...they aren't grouping up like they  use to. In fact they have become very territorial and any time a separate family comes into the plots there is a slapping match and mature does going after the other does fawn. Now I know it's not a lack of food around here by any means ...but the days of 3-5 five doe and 4-6 fawn hanging out seem to be gone. they skirt each other...Then as I said and yes landtrac your right. I was a all summer doe fun fest around here for 20 years...I complained of not seeing buck ...that is until the head gear hardened and fall bucks started moving...It was great because they headed right to us with all the doe on hand and I can tell you I sat and watched some crazy chasing going on under my stands lots of buck fights,,,panting deer every where.

 

But that changed last year when the big boys moved in during the summer and then left in the fall,,,and the doe pretty much stayed away too except at night when they would wonder through to feed I had lots of fawn around??? and some young buck but the big boys where here only once in a while and at night. Remember these guys...never saw them once during the day....heard fights but not close like normal...they came in and fed at night...I am just concerned for again I have mostly bucks walking past the cams...yes some doe but not the norm...I just wish I knew what I did to make it change...other than those soybeans...

Edited June 2, 2015 by growalot

[G-Man]

Prolly not so much what you did but what happens in surrounding area, I get a big influx of deer right before season,as the property is nice and quiet, I do not go in the woods after sept 1st, thise deer learn the safety they have find the food and then stay... next year I have deer all over again , the camps around me go crazy hanging stands, riding atv's ,scouting, the complain the deer just come for my food plots ..they plant their own now but still have low sucess,fact is they come from the pressure and stay for the food,. Soon they set up shop and stick around as part of their home range.

[growalot]

Well the farmer that leases next to me is also farming the fields farther up the hill now. The fields behind me now have farming going on...corn for the most part.Those are fields that were fallow or abandoned hay fields that I, then the hunting lease mowed once a season.

 The one neighbor bought the 50 acres next to her that was an abandoned camp and Speaking of mowing being a mental disorder...yes indeed it is...lol or refuge...for he is on the tractor EVERY SINGLE DAY ALL day on weekends mowing trails and fields and then on the zero turn mowing the lawn so they never see dandelion flowers...it drives Mr. B out of his mind. he comes home at night thinking peace and quiet and hears the mower...I don't hear it any more.

So you maybe right ......also the camp next to the new farm fields behind us sold to a family with kids and a dog...the first thing they bought was a 4 wheeler...the second a snowmobile.....

The bucks may have just lost their summer range and moved to us and the neighbor next to us that logs every 5-8 years then my elder hunting neighbor that rarely makes it up here and the 50 acres behind me(we own on both side of the road),who's  tired of the hunters he allowed after just 3 seasons....hhhmmmm now what?

Edited June 3, 2015 by growalot

[dbHunterNY]

once doe reach a certain age they're definitely not as productive.  maybe that's not as much the case near the wny area, such that they have a single fawn versus multiple?  where you are and the situation I could believe the success rate though.  by targeting doe with one fawn you're taking out either really old doe or young doe and leaving doe most likely to be dominant or compete for it.  I'd imagine they don't get along as well and keep distance.  you still need a good age structure for doe so they act like doe should, among other things.  I've got to imagine most doe are spitting out twins anyway so you shouldn't be concerned about productivity of a doe when it comes to harvest decisions.  I'd just give equal opportunity to any doe or target the exact opposite for a season then go to an equal opportunity thwacking.

 

maybe something else is do you have your cameras in diverse locations, like they aren't all in the middle of food plots or any single type of habitat?  doe aren't venturing too far from fawn bedding areas and skirt edges to begin with rather than lead very young fawns out in wide open before now.  that would skew what you're seeing to a degree.  they're probably a month or so old now and fairly agile.  assuming the dates and times are wrong on the cameras.  also I assume you've got plenty of cover for fawn bedding areas and haven't pressured doe to leave your property to drop fawns.

[phade]

once doe reach a certain age they're definitely not as productive.  maybe that's not as much the case near the wny area, such that they have a single fawn versus multiple?  where you are and the situation I could believe the success rate though.  by targeting doe with one fawn you're taking out either really old doe or young doe and leaving doe most likely to be dominant or compete for it.  I'd imagine they don't get along as well and keep distance.  you still need a good age structure for doe so they act like doe should, among other things.  I've got to imagine most doe are spitting out twins anyway so you shouldn't be concerned about productivity of a doe when it comes to harvest decisions.  I'd just give equal opportunity to any doe or target the exact opposite for a season then go to an equal opportunity thwacking.

 

maybe something else is do you have your cameras in diverse locations, like they aren't all in the middle of food plots or any single type of habitat?  doe aren't venturing too far from fawn bedding areas and skirt edges to begin with rather than lead very young fawns out in wide open before now.  that would skew what you're seeing to a degree.  they're probably a month or so old now and fairly agile.  assuming the dates and times are wrong on the cameras.  also I assume you've got plenty of cover for fawn bedding areas and haven't pressured doe to leave your property to drop fawns.

 

According to the DEC, we have does coming our of our rear ends. It really is a shock to find a dry doe. I've never come across one (of breeding weight and age) and I honestly have no idea how many doe I have shot in Region 8, beyond that idea that it may be more than triple digit now. Also never seen a friend/family member shoot a dry doe when I've been around.

 

My assumption is Grow unknowingly or knowingly took out one too many alpha does in her area (either core range on her ground or peripheral core range) timed just right with all the BS that is going on around her, letting the bucks move in. I'd still target the younger does and let a few alphas come into play this season and maybe even next, to create the environment where they might push the bucks back out. Prime fawning ground isn't always the best buck bachelor group ground, but when the habitat is suitable to both, alpha does can and will push those groups out. 

[dbHunterNY]

Well the farmer that leases next to me is also farming the fields farther up the hill now. The fields behind me now have farming going on...corn for the most part.Those are fields that were fallow or abandoned hay fields that I, then the hunting lease mowed once a season.

 The one neighbor bought the 50 acres next to her that was an abandoned camp and Speaking of mowing being a mental disorder...yes indeed it is...lol or refuge...for he is on the tractor EVERY SINGLE DAY ALL day on weekends mowing trails and fields and then on the zero turn mowing the lawn so they never see dandelion flowers...it drives Mr. B out of his mind. he comes home at night thinking peace and quiet and hears the mower...I don't hear it any more.

So you maybe right ......also the camp next to the new farm fields behind us sold to a family with kids and a dog...the first thing they bought was a 4 wheeler...the second a snowmobile.....

The bucks may have just lost their summer range and moved to us and the neighbor next to us that logs every 5-8 years then my elder hunting neighbor that rarely makes it up here and the 50 acres behind me(we own on both side of the road),who's  tired of the hunters he allowed after just 3 seasons....hhhmmmm now what?

that's not human activity based so much as losing large amounts of habitat perfect for fawning.  I think you've got part of your answer.  make sure your property has habitat suitable for deer.  food plots and wide open hardwoods with nothing else isn't good.

[dbHunterNY]

According to the DEC, we have does coming our of our rear ends. It really is a shock to find a dry doe. I've never come across one (of breeding weight and age) and I honestly have no idea how many doe I have shot in Region 8, beyond that idea that it may be more than triple digit now. Also never seen a friend/family member shoot a dry doe when I've been around.

 

My assumption is Grow unknowingly or knowingly took out one too many alpha does in her area (either core range on her ground or peripheral core range) timed just right with all the BS that is going on around her, letting the bucks move in. I'd still target the younger does and let a few alphas come into play this season and maybe even next, to create the environment where they might push the bucks back out. Prime fawning ground isn't always the best buck bachelor group ground, but when the habitat is suitable to both, alpha does can and will push those groups out. 

 

yea I believe you about the dry doe.  being the soil for the region you are I'm sure doe more often have twins versus a single that would cause the loss of one to make her dry.

[Buckstopshere]

According to the DEC, we have does coming our of our rear ends. It really is a shock to find a dry doe. I've never come across one (of breeding weight and age) and I honestly have no idea how many doe I have shot in Region 8, beyond that idea that it may be more than triple digit now. Also never seen a friend/family member shoot a dry doe when I've been around.

 

My assumption is Grow unknowingly or knowingly took out one too many alpha does in her area (either core range on her ground or peripheral core range) timed just right with all the BS that is going on around her, letting the bucks move in. I'd still target the younger does and let a few alphas come into play this season and maybe even next, to create the environment where they might push the bucks back out. Prime fawning ground isn't always the best buck bachelor group ground, but when the habitat is suitable to both, alpha does can and will push those groups out. 

 

I have tagged a number of "dry doe," at least what I believe to be dry doe over the years and I too am well into the triple digets. I determine that it is a dry doe because, a. No milk in the sac when I dress them out, b., nipples barely noticeable, and c. when I check the teeth, they are brown and worn down to just about the gum line. Usually, 1 out of 20 or so. But that was when I was targeting big or alpha doe, now by shooting young doe, I don't think I have killed a dry young doe. But 30 years ago, I didn't think about it or know enough to check, so I could have.

[phade]

I have tagged a number of "dry doe," at least what I believe to be dry doe over the years and I too am well into the triple digets. I determine that it is a dry doe because, a. No milk in the sac when I dress them out, b., nipples barely noticeable, and c. when I check the teeth, they are brown and worn down to just about the gum line. Usually, 1 out of 20 or so. But that was when I was targeting big or alpha doe, now by shooting young doe, I don't think I have killed a dry young doe. But 30 years ago, I didn't think about it or know enough to check, so I could have.

 

1 out of 20 indicates 95+% breeding rate, which is probably par for the course down in your Wellsville area. And that was with you targeting the older does.

Edited June 3, 2015 by phade

[NYBuckHunter27]

Cant alpha doe also push out other deer looking to come into the area?

[growalot]

 

Cant alpha doe also push out other deer looking to come into the area?

 I seen some all out battles between doe up here and the winner does not stop until she has chased the loser completely out of the area...Now as far as old doe verses young...I do not go by fawns per say...I go by body development and here they develop a very distinct roman nose. they also have a different body type...no different than a developing buck...My lands have always been prime fawning areas...and as the guys here know I am...I will say it..."the queen" of natural habit mixed with man made...The deer on this hill aren't using open fields to fawn in they are using the woods that is 20+ yrs of fact...and mainly the swampy areas of woods...occasionally in one of my interior wood land clover plots...but still near swampy areas

Edited June 3, 2015 by growalot

[phade]

Cant alpha doe also push out other deer looking to come into the area?

 

Core ranges are small...about 5-10% of the deer's overall range in most cases. Alphas will tolerate peripheral lapses in the core range, but will act out toward does trying to set up shop within a core. With the deer density you have in Gen. Co. there is alot of overlap, and I would expect the average core to be small acreage wise because there is alot of cover/food/water.

 

For example, a soy bean field might be 40-50 acres and shared by several doe groups and a bachelor group as a destination food source, but they're not necessarily all going back to the same house after dinner.

[dbHunterNY]

Core ranges are small...about 5-10% of the deer's overall range in most cases. Alphas will tolerate peripheral lapses in the core range, but will act out toward does trying to set up shop within a core. With the deer density you have in Gen. Co. there is alot of overlap, and I would expect the average core to be small acreage wise because there is alot of cover/food/water.

 

For example, a soy bean field might be 40-50 acres and shared by several doe groups and a bachelor group as a destination food source, but they're not necessarily all going back to the same house after dinner.

 

this is what I've seen here in Rensselaer county.  we mostly have fields not as large too unless they're strips of different crops. for whatever reason i'll see multiple doe groups keeping the same rotation hitting the same fields.  seem to give each other space more often than not.  on rare occasion, i'll see an all out boxing match.

[Buckstopshere]

Old dominant does will put their ears back and chase each other in the spring, defending their fawning areas. But I have not witnessed does chasing other doe in the late summer or fall.

[dbHunterNY]

 I seen some all out battles between doe up here and the winner does not stop until she has chased the loser completely out of the area...Now as far as old doe verses young...I do not go by fawns per say...I go by body development and here they develop a very distinct roman nose. they also have a different body type...no different than a developing buck...My lands have always been prime fawning areas...and as the guys here know I am...I will say it..."the queen" of natural habit mixed with man made...The deer on this hill aren't using open fields to fawn in they are using the woods that is 20+ yrs of fact...and mainly the swampy areas of woods...occasionally in one of my interior wood land clover plots...but still near swampy areas

 

I typically see yearling to 2.5 year old doe and old doe past their peak produce fewer fawns.  very extremes of age ranges and other factors come into play.  i agree, without a doubt physical characteristics of body and face is the accepted means to age a doe.  on rare occasion you can add observation history to that.  you got other options when it dies.  with all the constant mowing around your area I've got to think more fawns are dropping in the woods.  edges of fallow or abandoned hay fields are most definitely used out this way for fawning along with the woods.  farmers around here are often seeing half a dozen or more when mowing fields for 1st cutting, whether it's too late the stop or not. we usually get a few that just don't move.  the haybine with sickle bar used to be more forgiving.  for many years now we've used a 12' discbine and they don't make out so well.