I Think I "Want" a Bigger Hammer!

[wildcat junkie]

Don't "need" one but what the he!!.

 

Back in 2000 I built my 1st CF Mauser based on the '43 vintage J P Sauer & Sone M98K action. It was chambered in 8mm-06 Ackley Improved & would send  .323 Nosler BTs down range @ 2950 fps W/the standard powders I used @ the time. Broadside double lung hits on Whitetails would blow walnut sized chunks of pink lung tissue onto the ground.

 

The problem was, it had the M98K barrel turned down too thin & would walk the POI as the barrel warmed. I sold the barrel & the left over parts languished in my safe for the past 13 years.

 

I have the dies, fire formed cases, a stock, an action that has 1904 Portuguese hinged floor plate bottom metal W/the magazine milled out for the proper stack angle and a good 29" long M98/29 barrel. Below is the stock/action W/the barrel screwed in. The fact  that the sights came out @ the bottom means that the remains of the rear sight location hole will be hidden and the front sight will be cut off when the barrel is trimmed..

 

It won't be as sexy as my 8x57 but it will still be quite handsome I believe. Here are the 2 for comparison, Oberndorf Classic 8x57 on top . The barrel will be shortened by 3" & the replacement ebony grip cap still needs to be blended in.. Kinda looks like an Express Rifle in overall lines.

 

If nothing comes up to rape the monthly budget, I'm sending the action/barrel out to Dennis Olsen in Montana next week to have the chamber cut, the barrel cut & crowned to 26" & the contour turned down to a medium weight profile. I want the extra 2" to burn as much powder as possible & the added weight @ the muzzle will help tame the 3800 ft# of ME it will churn out with lightly compressed 62k  loads of Norma MRP behind 200/220 gr bullets.

 

Here is a comparison W/the 8x57 IS on the left.

 

"Quickload" computer predictions, which have proven to be very accurate W/the powder & caliber, have the 200gr Speer Hotcore @ 2950 fps, a 220 gr Hornady spbt @ 2800 fps. Standard cup & core bullet construction should suffice @ those Mv envelopes.

Edited February 10, 2016 by wildcat junkie

[ApexerER]

I wish I knew more but unfortunately 99% of what you said was greek to me....Are you planning on using a 200Grain Bullet to hunt whitetail? Either way, both rifles are beautiful....

[Pygmy]

Nice piece of walnut, Wildcat....I'm already "mildly aroused"...

 

I can't wait to see the finished product...8MM Rem Mag , EAT YOUR HEART OUT ....<<grin>>...

[The_Real_TCIII]

I have no idea what you're talking about but those rifles are beautiful

[wildcat junkie]

I wish I knew more but unfortunately 99% of what you said was greek to me....Are you planning on using a 200Grain Bullet to hunt whitetail? Either way, both rifles are beautiful....

 

A 200gr bullet in .323 (8mm) is akin to a 165gr .308 bullet. It is a medium weight for caliber bullet. I already use the same bullet in the 8X57 & it a very efficient killer that is suitable for any North American game.

 

The 8mm-06 A.I. is a 30-06 case necked up to .323, then fire-formed in a chamber that the shoulder of the 30-06 case (now 8mm-06) will headspace in. The shoulder is blown out to 40* & almost all of the case taper is eliminated. The fire-forming procedure is very critical to form good cases that don't have the brass stretched near the cartridge head thus weakening the brass. The chamber must be cut to properly headspace a standard 30-06 case to accomplish this W/O complicated case forming steps on the loading bench.

 

This increases the case capacity and allows higher pressure to be employed due to the straighter case walls & 40* shoulder. This same type of case geometry is employed in the modern "short magnum" cartridges.

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by wildcat junkie

[wildcat junkie]

Nice piece of walnut, Wildcat....I'm already "mildly aroused"...

 

I can't wait to see the finished product...8MM Rem Mag , EAT YOUR HEART OUT ....<<grin>>...

 

If I can get this sucker to shoot as well as the 8X57 I'm going to have to get on my bicycle this summer & pedal some lard out of my arse! That would make an Elk hunt on the "bucket list" viable.

 

[Pygmy]

Wildcat...Is it the 1909 Argentine that also has a hinged floorplate ?   Are there other Mausers available with that feature ?

 

I wasn't aware that the Portugese did, but I'm certainly no authority on Mausers.

 

There was a fellow, now deceased, who had a shop in Campbell and had racks full of surplus rifles..He had a personal collection of Mausers that would knock your dick stiff.  He told me that at one time he had ambitions of collecting EVERY military Mauser, but had to give it up, because there were just too many. He had dozens and dozens of them on his wall in the house, and many of them were pristine. I have often wondered what happened to them after he died.

[wildcat junkie]

Wildcat...Is it the 1909 Argentine that also has a hinged floorplate ?   Are there other Mausers available with that feature ?

 

I wasn't aware that the Portugese did, but I'm certainly no authority on Mausers.

 

There was a fellow, now deceased, who had a shop in Campbell and had racks full of surplus rifles..He had a personal collection of Mausers that would knock your dick stiff.  He told me that at one time he had ambitions of collecting EVERY military Mauser, but had to give it up, because there were just too many. He had dozens and dozens of them on his wall in the house, and many of them were pristine. I have often wondered what happened to them after he died.

 

Yeah the 1909 Argi has the hinged floor plate but are about as rare as a 16 year old virgin in Kentucky. The 1904 Portuguese is not even a true Mauser action.

 

 

Fortunately the geometry of the bottom metal is spot on. I bought 2 several years back when they came up online.

[Carbonelement]

beautiful guns for sure!!

 

i heard your ol' lady was looking for the same thing....says the hammer is just too small!....couldn't resist

[Mr VJP]

Seems the ballistics on your new rifle will be quite like a .325 WSM, one of my favorite rounds for Elk.

 

[ApexerER]

A 200gr bullet in .323 (8mm) is akin to a 165gr .308 bullet. It is a medium weight for caliber bullet. I already use the same bullet in the 8X57 & it a very efficient killer that is suitable for any North American game.

 

The 8mm-06 A.I. is a 30-06 case necked up to .323, then fire-formed in a chamber that the shoulder of the 30-06 case (now 8mm-06) will headspace in. The shoulder is blown out to 40* & almost all of the case taper is eliminated. The fire-forming procedure is very critical to form good cases that don't have the brass stretched near the cartridge head thus weakening the brass. The chamber must be cut to properly headspace a standard 30-06 case to accomplish this W/O complicated case forming steps on the loading bench.

 

This increases the case capacity and allows higher pressure to be employed due to the straighter case walls & 40* shoulder. This same type of case geometry is employed in the modern "short magnum" cartridges.

 

Honestly much of that is still greek to me but I did learn something so thank you for posting that. I hunt with a .308 and use 165gr. So what you are saying is that yes you are using a 200gr bullet but that is not a big bullet for that round. Or are you saying yes I am using a 200gr bullet but that is the same as 165gr .308. I thought that a bullet grain was a bullet grain regardless of caliber. Sorry, am I saying that correct?

[dbHunterNY]

Wildcat...Is it the 1909 Argentine that also has a hinged floorplate ?   Are there other Mausers available with that feature ?

 

I wasn't aware that the Portugese did, but I'm certainly no authority on Mausers.

 

There was a fellow, now deceased, who had a shop in Campbell and had racks full of surplus rifles..He had a personal collection of Mausers that would knock your dick stiff.  He told me that at one time he had ambitions of collecting EVERY military Mauser, but had to give it up, because there were just too many. He had dozens and dozens of them on his wall in the house, and many of them were pristine. I have often wondered what happened to them after he died.

 

maybe his wife or girlfriend sold them for what they thought he payed for them? haha

[shawnhu]

Honestly much of that is still greek to me but I did learn something so thank you for posting that. I hunt with a .308 and use 165gr. So what you are saying is that yes you are using a 200gr bullet but that is not a big bullet for that round. Or are you saying yes I am using a 200gr bullet but that is the same as 165gr .308. I thought that a bullet grain was a bullet grain regardless of caliber. Sorry, am I saying that correct?

Not sure what he's saying, but it's not the grains in a bullet that does the killing, but rather the penetration and energy released that does the damage.

So with this in mind, a 165gr bullet in a smaller caliber will have a higher sectional density, and likely to penetrate more given all other variables the same. That extra penetration may be desirable for larger game, or undesirable for smaller, shallower game.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

[wildcat junkie]

Honestly much of that is still greek to me but I did learn something so thank you for posting that. I hunt with a .308 and use 165gr. So what you are saying is that yes you are using a 200gr bullet but that is not a big bullet for that round. Or are you saying yes I am using a 200gr bullet but that is the same as 165gr .308. I thought that a bullet grain was a bullet grain regardless of caliber. Sorry, am I saying that correct?

 

Well both actually. In every caliber there is a given bullet weight that is the best compromise for bullet weight/ballistic coefficient (the higher the BC the better a bullet retains velocity/energy) and muzzle velocity.

 

First let me try to explain what ballistic coefficient (BC) is. BC is a factor that takes the drag of the bullet into account. It is affected by the bullets caliber, weight, density & shape. In a given bullet weight, say 165 grains, bullets of similar construction & shape, the larger the caliber. the shorter the bullet will be & it will have a less streamlined the shape. The larger caliber bullet will have higher drag & therefore a lower BC. When 2 bullets have the same BC, regardless of caliber, they will have the same trajectory & be affected the same by wind if they have the same muzzle velocity (Mv) This is where the comparison of the .323 200gr bullet compares to a 165gr .308 bullet & I will get to that later.

 

Since thee is no 165gr .323 bullet lets compare a 180gr .323 bullet W/a 180gr .308 bullet.

 

A 180gr .308 bullet is slightly on the heavy side for that caliber, but not much. A 180gr .308 Nosler BT has a (BC) of .507 & would retain velocity & energy very well over long distances. By contrast a 180gr .323 Nosler BT is a little on the "light side" for that caliber. It has a much lower BC of .394. It would shed velocity & retained energy much faster so even though the .323 180gr bullet would most likely start out much faster due to the larger bore cross section acting upon it @ similar pressure, it will be going much slower at long range compared to a similarly constructed .308 bullet of the same weight..

 

We can compare similar 200gr bullets. A 200gr .308 Nosler Partition bullet is on the heavy side for a .308 bullet. Although it has a high BC of .485,  a rifle chambered in .308 Win would have a hard time pushing that bullet much over 2400fps due to the bore cross ection factors mentioned previously. A 200gr Partition in .323 however is right in the middle of practical bullet weighs for the caliber. An 8x57, only slightly higher case capacity than a .308 Win can easily push a 200gr .323 partition @ over 2700 fps. The .323 200gr partition still has a decent BC of .426, not that far behind the 200gr .308 bullet & only slightly better than the 165gr .308 bullet that has a .410 BC.

 

 So in a nutshell, a 200gr .323 bullet does compare to a 165gr .308 bullet as far as weight to caliber. I hope I was able to clear things up for you.

Edited February 10, 2016 by wildcat junkie

[wildcat junkie]

Not sure what he's saying, but it's not the grains in a bullet that does the killing, but rather the penetration and energy released that does the damage.

So with this in mind, a 165gr bullet in a smaller caliber will have a higher sectional density, and likely to penetrate more given all other variables the same. That extra penetration may be desirable for larger game, or undesirable for smaller, shallower game.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

 

Yes sectional density is a factor in penetration, but bullet construction and expansion on the game in question is a much larger factor. That being said with 2 bullets that expand to the same size mushroom on impact, the higher SD bullet will penetrate more when impact velocity is the same. Expansion has a larger affect on the energy released.

 

Conversely, a lightly constructed bullet might expand more at high impact velocity & actually penetrate less at close range than it would at lower Mv or @ longer ranges as velocity decreases...

 

While the BC of the 200gr .323 is similar to the 165gr .308 in the Partition bullets, the SD of the 200gr .323 is similar to the SD of the 180gr .308 Partition.

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by wildcat junkie

[wildcat junkie]

Seems the ballistics on your new rifle will be quite like a .325 WSM, one of my favorite rounds for Elk.

 

Yes indeed albeit a rifle put together with a barrel that most world discard (it was given to me) & other parts that are not expensive. The largest single investment would be the stock, after that, the farmed out gunsmith work followed by a 3-position Mod 70 type safety which I don't have at the moment. The safety however is a modification that takes perhaps an hour's work & can be done at any point. In fact, the 3-position safety on the 8x57 was originally on the J P Sauer & Sone action when I  built the original 8mm-06 A.I...

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by wildcat junkie

[Mr VJP]

What do you estimate your total out of pocket cost to be when finished?

 

[wildcat junkie]

What do you estimate your total out of pocket cost to be when finished?

 

With a Bueler style safety about $500, ad about $150 for a 3-pos Mod 70 style safety. Its not about the bottom line as much as utilizing perfectly good components to make a unique, functional & athletically pleasing rifle.

 

The donner rifle was given to me & I butcherd it (in my early 20s) before I realized that it was a "duffle cut" battlefield pick up J. P. Sauer & Sone K98. I had an Irish neighbor when I was in my early teens. A few weeks after he died his wife brought the rifle over to me and told me that Pat wanted me to have it. I was about 14-15 at the time.

 

Do you know what a "duffle cut" is?

 

[Mr VJP]

Yes, cutting the stock at the barrel band so the dissembled rifle fits in a duffle bag.

[wildcat junkie]

Finally got all the details worked out on the bottom metal & shipped the barreled action to Dennis Olson yesterday.

 

I was able to open up the internal magazine length to 3.42" W/nothing more than some judicious work W/the "German mill". (safe file)

 

I can now load the long pointed Nosler 180gr Ballistics Tips out far enough to be just shy of touching the lands of the rifling. I'll still be able to seat 200gr Speer Hotcores W/O pushng them too far into the case at 3.295" COAL. 

 

I sent dummy rounds W/the 180gr BT seated to 3.388" COAL W/instructions to ream the throat so that the ogive was touching the lands.. I should be able to shoot a 3.85" live round W/the BTs & a 2.95" COAL for the 200gr Hotcores. I really hope to get < 1 MOA accuracy out of the 180s as they are more suited to deer & the longer COAL makes them more viable than W/the shorter 8X57.

 

While the 8X57 benefits from the increased muzzle energy of the 200s (3300'#) the 8mm-06 A.I. can still generate over 3700'# W/the 180s. (nearly 1000'# more energy than factory 30-06 180gr loads)

 

I used the 180BTs in the earlier rendition of the 8mm-06 A.I. back in 2000, but accuracy was dicey W/the barrel I had at the time. When deer weer hit cleanly broadside or quartering away through the chest, the 180BTs sucked the lungs right out of them.

 

Of course the 200s W/3800'# of energy would handle anything that walks on the continent W/power to spare.

 

I should be getting the action back in a week or so & hopefully my Norma MRP will arrive soon so I can get some loads cooked up when the weather breaks.

Edited March 2, 2016 by wildcat junkie

[Grouse]

I sent dummy rounds W/the 180gr BT seated to 3.388" COAL W/instructions to ream the throat so that the ogive was touching the lands.. I should be able to shoot a 3.85" live round W/the BTs & a 2.95" COAL for the 200gr Hotcores.

 

 

The whole post is very interesting and enlightening, but this one paragraph has me confused.

 

What is, "a 3.85" live round"?

[wildcat junkie]

 

 

I sent dummy rounds W/the 180gr BT seated to 3.388" COAL W/instructions to ream the throat so that the ogive was touching the lands.. I should be able to shoot a 3.85" live round W/the BTs & a 2.95" COAL for the 200gr Hotcores.

 

 

 

 

The whole post is very interesting and enlightening, but this one paragraph has me confused.

 

What is, "a 3.85" live round"?

Good catch, that was a typo. It should have read 3.385"

 

I sent a dummy round (no powder/primer) that was to be used to gauge the depth of the throat where the the bullet of the dummy round contacts the lands of the rifling. The COAL (Cartridge Over All Length) was 3.388". The "live round" would be a complete loaded cartridge. The length would be shortened to allow a minimal amount of clearance between the ogive (curved portion of the nose) of the bullet. In this case, a 3.385" long COAL of the "live round" would have .003" clearance. That distance is called "freebore".

 

The less distance between the bullet & the rifle lands, the more potential accuracy. The 180gr .323 Ballistic Tips don't seem to be as accurate as the less pointed 200gr Hotcore bulltes. Normally I try for about .010" to .015" which works well in most cases. One doesn't want the bullets jammed into the rifling as it could lead to a bullet being pulled from the case when an unfired round was extracted. Although that is not likely, it is a possibility that should be avoided.

Edited March 2, 2016 by wildcat junkie

[Grouse]

Thanks for the clarification.  I thought it was a typo, but then thought maybe not.

 

[wildcat junkie]

It's been a long time since I've posted. I had planned on working on a couple of rifle projects while I was recovering from foot surgery that was performed in March. Alas, while the initial surgery went well, the recovery did not. A week after the surgery, on my way back into the house after the 1st follow-up with the Dr, my crutches sank into the soft ground & I went for a tumble breaking the screwed together bones in my foot. A surgery was scheduled a few days after this was discovered but a skin infection around the incision set in & the Dr decided to not perform surgery & adopted a wait & see approach. To make a long story short, by the time I was able to sit at a workbench, summer was setting in & other projects took priority over the rifles.

In the mean time, my barreled action came back from Dennis Olsen and earlier this week I found some time to work on the 8mm-06 Ackley Improved project. This particular project posed some unique challenges as the stock had previously been on an action and this time around I wanted to correct some errors. This required a lot of filling with Acra Glass to shift the receiver upwards in the stock where it should be. I had previously done some filling to get the proper seating of the receiver but it still needed some final filling/bedding. The 1st order of business was to fill the voids around the action with Silly Putty. I used to use modeling clay for this, but Silly Putty is much easier to clean up as you will see.

Here is the action area of the stock with the bottom metal in place. The area around the magazine box & the trigger well have been filled with Silly Putty.

 

Next, the side rails on the receiver between the front ring & rear bridge are wrapped in packing tape. 3 layers build up to .005". This will result in clearance in those ares to keep the stock free of contact between the receiver ring & bridge.

 

The same treatment is done to the front & bottom sides only of the recoil lug. This allows the lug to pull down into the bedding to assure intimate contact with the rear & convex shaped sided of the lug.

 

I used sandpaper on a block to sand over the round nipple on the bottom of the lug to allow the tape to clear in order to contact the bottom of the lug W/O wrinkles..

 

Next, any metal that is anywhere near the bedding will be covered with 2 coats of polyvinyl alcohol release agent.

  

Have to get ready to pick up Wifey. I'l return with more.

 

[wildcat junkie]

OK. after Wifey & I slit a couple of pitchers of Labatt Blue & a belly full of chicken wings & "loaded fries, (smothered in bacon & cheese) I'll try to get a few more PIX posted with some text.

 

If you've ever glass bedded an action, you can understand the mild anxiety attack that occurs every time you pour in the bedding compound & set the metal in place. Will it release? Will I end up with a permanently bonded action/stock?

 

1st of all, for those of you unfamiliar with Acraglas.

 

Acraglas is a 4-part compound that consists of an epoxy resin, hardener, fiberglas "floc" and dye. It has very specific mix ratios (4:1 by volume) and mixing procedures There is a newer, more convenient "gel" compound that is simpler to use, but I feel that the original formula is stronger, especially when I add extra glass floc as I do...The gel doesn't seem to take on the dye as well either. 

Since I only need e a shallow fill, I buttered up the metal and the stock recess with a thin layer of compound, said a little prayer, set the action on place and lightly snugged down the action screws.

The resulting "squeeze out" of compound was just about right. Q-tips & paper towels soaked in rubbing alcohol were employed to clean up the excess.

 

Now this is not the time to go to bed, work or any activity that will occupy your time for more than an hour or so. It is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL. You must release the metal from the stock, or at least trim away the excess while the bedding is solid. yet pliable.

A few hours later,after removing the action screw & replacing them with headless action inletting studs, I trimmed the excess compound from the edges, then took a hard plastic mallet & gradually drove the action loose from the bedding.

 

This is what it looked like when it was separated.

 

After trimming the thin layer that squeezed between the metal & Silly Putty with a hook blade Exacto knife, as wel as pulling the Silly Putty from the wood, this is what I ended up with.

 

A solid, skin tight fit between the stock, front receiver ring/recoil lug & the rear bridge/tang W/O any pressure on portions that don't need it.

More to follow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by wildcat junkie